What if I barge through gates while holding a valid ticket?

[styles]

Retired railway staff have passes that will not operate barriers, and always have to be let through. I have twice been unable to pass through on a Sunday at Amersham as the staff are missing. Last time I tried the "Help" intercom but got no response. Using the emergency button seemed inappropriate. The only way I can get through to the platform is to wait for somebody to go through and follow them very closely, pushing through as the gates close. Its extremely embarrassing, and makes you feel like a criminal.

J

Worth noting that this is still a bylaws offence:

9.2. where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws

Though admittedly physically easier than barging through a closed barrier which not everybody will be capable of.

 

[saismee]

Though admittedly physically easier than barging through a closed barrier which not everybody will be capable of.

And realistically most retired railway staff aren't agile enough to push or jump!

Worth noting that this is still a bylaws offence:

There's no real alternative for retired railway staff because though because they can't stand around and claim delay repay later. Any case where there is no staff available should be reported as it is a safety hazard.

 

[Annetts key]

Worth noting that this is still a bylaws offence:

As the tickets used by staff or former staff that have protected travel facilities are partly filled in by them, another interpretation is that they themselves, authorise themselves. As long as they are using their ticket in compliance with the rules, regulations and restrictions, the ticket is valid. Therefore they will be authorised to enter or exit the platform / station.

Myself, despite travelling to various locations over the years, the only time I have encountered problems was on the Tube. My combined main line and underground (paper) ticket (paid for by my employer) would not open the gates at an underground station.

At the moment, GWR stations are supposed to have two gateline staff present (on duty). But the company is trying to change this as I understand it. Which would be a backwards step in my humble opinion.

 

[DelW]

I have had this happen to me especially when using a one day travelcard must recentley at Upton Park when despite using the point which just rang with no answer and went dead and there was no staff that i could see anywhere travelcards seem the most prone to failing

I've had this too, and it's most annoying as my preferred ticket for a day out in London is an outboundary travel card. The last time it happened with no staff around, I was reluctant to force the barrier and paid for an unnecessary contactless fare to ensure I didn't miss my main line connection.

My experience is like Jupiter's - whose location is Dorset so therefore I assume a SWR user? I live in Hampshire and SWR had a long 'blitz' on senior railcard tickets - the gate wouldn't open, you had to show the gateline attendant your senior railcard before being allowed through. More recently - no problems.

SWR seem to do this randomly but quite frequently. During last year's blockade, the regular gateline monitor at my local (SWR) station got to know me well enough that she'd call me straight to the wide gate to let me through while it was in force.

 

[styles]

As the tickets used by staff or former staff that have protected travel facilities are partly filled in by them, another interpretation is that they themselves, authorise themselves.

They said retired railway staff though.

I don't think you could argue that a retired member of staff can authorise themselves to do things outwith the bylaws.

Even in the spirit of the bylaws (not relevant for a strict liability offence of course), privileged staff travel passes are still required to be presented for inspection when requested. There's plenty of cases of current and former staff abusing passes, so interpreting the bylaws as former staff with privileged passes can just bypass ticket checking and fare enforcement mechanisms would not be desirable.

 

[Falcon1200]

so interpreting the bylaws as former staff with privileged passes can just bypass ticket checking and fare enforcement mechanisms would not be desirable.

If a train operator cannot be bothered to staff its gateline, yet does not open the gates, what is anyone whose ticket does not open the gate supposed to do?

 

[styles]

If a train operator cannot be bothered to staff its gateline, yet does not open the gates, what is anyone whose ticket does not open the gate supposed to do?

Exactly.

That's why I suggested amending the bylaws to make it not an offence to bypass the barriers if they're unstaffed and there is no help point available or the help point goes unanswered. Seems a simple solution to me.

Well, the real solution is of course not to leave barriers unstaffed/unmonitored. But in the case this happens, it shouldn't be an offence for a passenger to bypass them.

 

[Falcon1200]

Well, the real solution is of course not to leave barriers unstaffed/unmonitored. But in the case this happens, it shouldn't be an offence for a passenger to bypass them.

I agree! Although, as I asked earlier, has anyone ever actually been prosecuted for barging though a gate in these circumstances? One would think it very rare, if it happens at all, as if the gates are unstaffed who is there to apprehend them?!!

 

[Sonic1234]

Well, the real solution is of course not to leave barriers unstaffed/unmonitored. But in the case this happens, it shouldn't be an offence for a passenger to bypass them.

As I always say to this, if there is someone there to catch you, there is someone there to open the gate.

First step to becoming a criminal: get caught. If no one is there to see you, it effectively didn't happen.

 

[styles]

As I always say to this, if there is someone there to catch you, there is someone there to open the gate.

First step to becoming a criminal: get caught. If no one is there to see you, it effectively didn't happen.

Someone posted first-hand experience further up of BTP catching them barging through a gate and taking their details (nothing came of it though). I'm not sure if BTP are authorised to control the gates, but unless it was an emergency I reckon they'd defer to calling station staff?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 17:29 ==

I agree! Although, as I asked earlier, has anyone ever actually been prosecuted for barging though a gate in these circumstances? One would think it very rare, if it happens at all, as if the gates are unstaffed who is there to apprehend them?!!

I've certainly never heard of it and doubt it would happen. The railway would get tragic PR for trying it.

 

[Annetts key]

They said retired railway staff though.

I don't think you could argue that a retired member of staff can authorise themselves to do things outwith the bylaws.

Even in the spirit of the bylaws (not relevant for a strict liability offence of course), privileged staff travel passes are still required to be presented for inspection when requested. There's plenty of cases of current and former staff abusing passes, so interpreting the bylaws as former staff with privileged passes can just bypass ticket checking and fare enforcement mechanisms would not be desirable.

It makes very little difference if it's a current staff member or a former staff member (which would include retired staff).

As I said in my earlier post, as long as all the rules etc. are being complied with, the pass holder is authorised to travel by train and hence must be authorised to enter or exit platforms / stations for said journey.

Yes, the pass has to be presented when requested. And I am not and was not suggesting that a pass holder should attempt to bypass, avoid or otherwise misuse barriers when they are in operation and station gateline staff are present.

My point was that if the gates are closed and there are no station gateline staff present, or other means (including remote access) of getting one opened, then there is no practical way for a pass holder to get the gates to open. As they hold a valid ticket that they themselves filled in a section on it, why wouldn't they be considered as authorised to push open the gates?

All laws are subject to interpretation. I honestly can't see a court ruling against a pass holder (where they have complied with all the rules and requirements relating to that pass) for pushing through a closed barrier at an unattended gateline.

 

[c52]

I don't travel to many different places but the ones I do go to tend to reject supersaver tickets.

 

[wnr1990]

This happened to me all the time when I worked late at Elephant & Castle and had to take one of the last Bakerloo services

 

[nanstallon]

This is horrifying! I think I'm done with British trains. The risk of gates not working is too high. I didn't realise the railway is so evil that they want to give passengers criminal records because of a fault with their own technology.

On the railway, the customer is always wrong.

 

[318266]

Had to do this vaguely recently when nobody was at Canada Water's gates after one of the last trains came in from Highbury. Tried my travelcard twice, "Seek assistance 09" both times, so having not seen a single staff member (at midnight, mind) forced the wide barrier (least likely to cause issues, I reckoned) to make my bus connection.

Not a soul batted an eyelid, nor a single person seemed to even view it as a particularly abnormal occurence.

 

[styles]

It makes very little difference if it's a current staff member or a former staff member (which would include retired staff).

As I said in my earlier post, as long as all the rules etc. are being complied with, the pass holder is authorised to travel by train and hence must be authorised to enter or exit platforms / stations for said journey.

Yes, the pass has to be presented when requested. And I am not and was not suggesting that a pass holder should attempt to bypass, avoid or otherwise misuse barriers when they are in operation and station gateline staff are present.

My point was that if the gates are closed and there are no station gateline staff present, or other means (including remote access) of getting one opened, then there is no practical way for a pass holder to get the gates to open. As they hold a valid ticket that they themselves filled in a section on it, why wouldn't they be considered as authorised to push open the gates?

All laws are subject to interpretation. I honestly can't see a court ruling against a pass holder (where they have complied with all the rules and requirements relating to that pass) for pushing through a closed barrier at an unattended gateline.

They're authorised to pass through the barriers in the same way I am on an off peak single.

They're not authorised to operate the ticket barriers (unless they are a current staff member at the same company who operates the station in which case this whole thing is mute).

They're not authorised to do whatever they want where the bylaws say authorised person. That would be absurd!

 

[alex397]

I’ve had a similar occurrence with a valid ‘London Terminals’ ticket which some gate lines seem to have an issue with, where I had to follow someone else through the wide accessible gates, as these stay open longer.

 

[DelW]

First step to becoming a criminal: get caught. If no one is there to see you, it effectively didn't happen.

The advent of CCTV, and potentially its being linked with facial recognition software, may change the odds though.

 

[Sussex hammer]

What is a correct manner to pass through a barrier and where in the byelaws is this defined?

 

[styles]

What is a correct manner to pass through a barrier and where in the byelaws is this defined?

I'm not sure England & Wales magistrates would have much time for this Better Call Saul style line of argument.

It's quite obvious the correct way to pass through a barrier is for it to be opened automatically by a ticket, left open, or by a member of staff.

Or at least, the correct manner isn't to barge through it.

 

[Sussex hammer]

I'm not sure England & Wales magistrates would have much time for this Better Call Saul style line of argument.

It's quite obvious the correct way to pass through a barrier is for it to be opened automatically by a ticket, left open, or by a member of staff.

Quite obvious! Why put that phrase into the byelaws?

And what is the correct manner if the barrier does not open automatically with a valid ticket and/or an AUTHORISED member of staff is not about?

So going back to the OP question, nothing would happen in truth, if we going down the BETTER CALL SAUL line of prosecuting or breaking byelaws.

 

[DelW]

My experience is like Jupiter's - whose location is Dorset so therefore I assume a SWR user? I live in Hampshire and SWR had a long 'blitz' on senior railcard tickets - the gate wouldn't open, you had to show the gateline attendant your senior railcard before being allowed through. More recently - no problems.

SWR seem to do this randomly but quite frequently. During last year's blockade, the regular gateline monitor at my local (SWR) station got to know me well enough that she'd call me straight to the wide gate to let me through while it was in force.

SWR are doing it again, all (?)* gates set to reject tickets with senior railcard discount (I don't know whether same applies to other railcards).

According to the same gateline assistant mentioned above, who let me through just now, it's set to last for four weeks. Allow for more time wasted at busy or unattended gatelines.

*Edit: only some it seems, the same ticket worked at my SWR destination.

 

[jupiter]

I’m not sure why an ex-BR employee with a ticket on which he’s put his dates, has any more (or less) right to barge a barrier than I do with my Freedom of the Southwest Rover on which I’ve filled in my dates? Just because he worked for BR (all his working life) surely doesn’t make him «an authorised person» over a decade after he retired?

 

[Tom B]

I travel through a few LUL stations where the gates are routinely left open, either because the sole staff member is doing his patrol of the station, is in the bog, or simply that someone's gone sick and thus the station is abandoned for the day. It happens fairly often, but of course only on open sections.

 

[Sonic1234]

I travel through a few LUL stations where the gates are routinely left open, either because the sole staff member is doing his patrol of the station, is in the bog, or simply that someone's gone sick and thus the station is abandoned for the day. It happens fairly often, but of course only on open sections.

As it should be. If no one can adequately supervise the gates, they should be left open. The safety risk of someone trapped in a station outweighs any revenue protection considerations. Technically, fully open although TfL do like to just leave the wide gate open (this fools the software that the gates are operational, so the station doesn't get a bad mark from the higher ups).

The issue that is encountered is gates which are not supervised being left closed. LU and Oysterland in general is a problem area for this. Because paper tickets are so rare, the number of people needing assistance is low and they "get away with it" if the gates are left closed. Something that will become more widespread with Project Oval.

 

[sparkly]

I seem to recall a station (Exeter Central?) which had a secondary exit (which was pretty much as far away from the main entrance as it was possible to be) where the operator was insisting (to whoever was at the other end of tge intercom) that the passenger come to them to be let out.

The secondary exit to Exeter Central used to be incredibly handy, it saves 10 minutes of walking if you're going to the football ground for instance. But the remote manning of the gateline is awful, you can frequently be waiting 5+ minutes just for someone to answer the intercom, if there's multiple people going through then by the time everyone's shown their ticket to the camera it's usually quicker to have walked the long way around.

Though the final straw for me was trying to get into the station with an Advanced ticket for a departure that was 50 minutes ahead. Ticket was for an hourly service so there was no way I could sneak on to an earlier train, but when I showed the ticket to the camera than man on the phone told me I was too early and shouldn't arrive at the station until 30mins before departure. I've never encountered this "rule" before or since, I just walked round to the main entrance and was let in no problem (even though there was still 40 mins til the train), but maybe if I'd barged through I wouldn't still be angry about it 3 years later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though the final straw for me was trying to get into the station with an Advanced ticket for a departure that was 50 minutes ahead. Ticket was for an hourly service so there was no way I could sneak on to an earlier train, but when I showed the ticket to the camera than man on the phone told me I was too early and shouldn't arrive at the station until 30mins before departure. I've never encountered this "rule" before or since, I just walked round to the main entrance and was let in no problem (even though there was still 40 mins til the train), but maybe if I'd barged through I wouldn't still be angry about it 3 years later.

I've seen Birmingham International gateline (obviously trained by the Euston mob) do it to a hapless tourist which I thought rather unfair as there's no seating nor toilets outside the gateline there unless you trek back over to the airport and there's plenty inside.

 

[styles]

Though the final straw for me was trying to get into the station with an Advanced ticket for a departure that was 50 minutes ahead.

I've only ever had this issue at airports, where pushing through security may cause just a little bit of a scene!

 

[fandroid]

I've had this too, and it's most annoying as my preferred ticket for a day out in London is an outboundary travel card. The last time it happened with no staff around, I was reluctant to force the barrier and paid for an unnecessary contactless fare to ensure I didn't miss my main line connection.

SWR seem to do this randomly but quite frequently. During last year's blockade, the regular gateline monitor at my local (SWR) station got to know me well enough that she'd call me straight to the wide gate to let me through while it was in force.

I'm an SWR based Senior Railcard holder who got sick of paper travelcards failing to open gates. I tried out the SWR Touch Smartcard, with tickets loaded from my phone, and haven't looked back. Never had a gate problem since on SWR (plus a lot of GWR) and LU.

The only snag is they don't fulfill Evening Out tickets on the Touch card. To get round that I got a second Touch card and use Tap2Go for the SWR legs plus Oyster on LU.

 

[thesignalman]

Retired railway staff have passes that will not operate barriers, and always have to be let through. I have twice been unable to pass through on a Sunday at Amersham as the staff are missing. Last time I tried the "Help" intercom but got no response. Using the emergency button seemed inappropriate. The only way I can get through to the platform is to wait for somebody to go through and follow them very closely, pushing through as the gates close. Its extremely embarrassing, and makes you feel like a criminal.

J

For the record, I need to correct my failed memory. The occasion where I "pushed myself through" was actually at Rickmansworth, so the problem is not limited to Amersham.

The other occasion at Amersham that I got confused with was their inability to be able to issue me a quarter-rate retired staff fare owing to the booking office being closed, although the barriers were staffed. Ticket machines cannot issue staff-rate fares. I'm not looking for pity from those who have to pay normal fares, but experiences such as these simply put me off from travelling by train at all.

It isn't only that these are Underground stations at which main line services call - I am entitled to redued-rate travel on the Underground too. Such tickets are almost impossible to purchase, I believe the only choice is to buy them at main line terminii such as Marylebone or Euston - places that are at the wrong end of the journey or not on it at all. But this forum isn't really the place for my grumbles about that.

John