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What if the London & Birmingham and Midland Counties merged?

Sad Sprinter

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What if these two railways merged to create a larger Midland Railway? After all the MC relied on the L&B to get to London for most of its use via Rugby. Was such a merger ever contemplated and what would have been the results?
 
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etr221

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Like many such early mergers or 'whatifs', the result would have been a very different railway network and history: beyond easy speculation.
 

Senex

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In 1852 the LNW and the Midland did talk amalgamation and got as far as discussing the detail of the terms. But they couldn't agree ....
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Grand Junction backed the Oxford & Rugby railway when its relations with the London & Birmingham were poor, so that it would have had a separate route to London via the GWR.
But of course it soon merged with the L&B and M&B to form the LNWR, and the Oxford & Rugby fell into GWR hands and headed to Birmingham instead.
Rugby was briefly a major node on the network, carrying all traffic from London to the north, but the Great Northern and then the Midland soon built their own routes direct to London.
Once the Wigston-Bedford-Hitchin line was opened by the Midland in 1857, the Rugby-Wigston line became a backwater after more than a decade of being a critical link in the rail network.
The GC, when it came in 1899, managed to route through Rugby without connecting to either the LNWR or the Midland on the way.

The 1850s marked merger negotiations between the LNWR and variously the Midland, GN, MS&L and L&Y, but were never concluded (though the L&Y was merged in 1921 just before grouping).

It was one of the strategic blunders of the Beeching era that we lost both Rugby-Leicester routes, when a connection between the WCML and MML would have been very valuable, particularly at times of disruption.
The retained connections at Bletchley, Nuneaton and Northampton (now also closed) were nothing like as effective as a Rugby-Leicester link would have been,
 
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midland1

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If the L&B and the MC had merged when they built a line up to Scotland they could have called themselves the London Midland and Scottish Railway or LMS for short :D
 

RT4038

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The retained connections at Bletchley, Nuneaton and Northampton (now also closed) were nothing like as effective as a Rugby-Leicester link would have been,
I don't suppose at the time of closure the Rugby (Midland) - Leicester line was seen as valuable ( in times of disruption or any other time) , or used as a diversionary route when it was open. Owing to the constrained layout north of Rugby (Midland) Station, there was no track connection in the 'down' direction ( from London to Leicester), without extensive wrong line running or a shunt, which was not a practical move with the signalling and operations at the time. The Rugby (Midland)-Leicester line at time of closure had no viable local or long distance passenger traffic, or originating/terminating freight traffic, and featured several level crossings, which were expensive to man, with one across a busy main road (A5) which would have required bridging in the near future.

The closure decision was hardly surprising!
 

Class45

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Possibly the Birmingham & Gloucester railway would have been taken over by the Great Western instead of the Midland
 

Senex

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What were the details if you know?
Both companies voted for amalgamation at meetings in late 1852 and a Bill was taken forward in 1853. But parliament was not taking kindly to amalgamations, things were postponed, and then never revived. The best summary I know of what was considered is the attached detail of the Bill as published by Herapath. Clement Stretton, in his History of the Midoland Railway (always to be used with caution!), writes (p.146): "In the following year (1852) the directors became firmly convinced that it was of vast importance to the prosperity of the Midland system that the Company should establish more or less direct connections with London, and negotiations were entered upon with representatives of the London and North Western Railway Company with a view to amalgamation. So essential was it considered that the Midland should be permanently identified with a line having a terminus in London that the amalgamation scheme was all but completed. The Midland terms were finally £60 in proportion to the London and North Western shares of £100, and the dividend to be pro rata on these amounts. The London and North Western would not agree to these terms, and offered amalgamation on the basis of £57 10s. per share, and on this difference of 50s. per share between the parties the negotiations were broken off. But meanwhile the Midland Company had established other arrangements, which enabled them to deal with their growing London traffic until the time was ripe for another forward movement." The same parliamentary session that saw the failure of the amalgamation Bill also saw the passing of the Leicester & Hitchin Act. That line was opened in spring 1857 and in February of the following year the Midland began to exercise its newly-acquired running powers to get to King's Cross. Euston was not at first abandoned, and the LNW route continued to be important for Midland coal until the Midland's own line was opened.
 

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DJ_K666

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I don't suppose at the time of closure the Rugby (Midland) - Leicester line was seen as valuable ( in times of disruption or any other time) , or used as a diversionary route when it was open. Owing to the constrained layout north of Rugby (Midland) Station, there was no track connection in the 'down' direction ( from London to Leicester), without extensive wrong line running or a shunt, which was not a practical move with the signalling and operations at the time. The Rugby (Midland)-Leicester line at time of closure had no viable local or long distance passenger traffic, or originating/terminating freight traffic, and featured several level crossings, which were expensive to man, with one across a busy main road (A5) which would have required bridging in the near future.

The closure decision was hardly surprising!
Personally I'd support a reopening although there are obstructions and buildings (boo hiss) in the Ullesthorpe area and a couple of other places, plus the track alignmentis now also obstructed at Willey (snigger) as well as having to pass under the M6.
Really a completely new alignment would be best from the northern end of the viaduct. Would sending it between Lutterworth and Magna Park and then up towards Leicester that way generate much traffic?

It's crazy that you can't really get from Rugby to Leicester, a 16 mile journey without it taking 90 minutes, around an hour of that being waiting at Nuneaton as the onward connection has already left 1 minute before. You should not have to rely on a train being late just to be able to get somewhere in a reasonable time.

Rugby is and always was a weird station layout and having the connection where it was can't have been easy. There were four Bay platforms at the western/Northbound end but these have vanished and what's left is a desolate space. Certainly the remodelling could have been better with maybe the down Coventry and Trent Valley platforms being 1 and 2 as now, Up Coventry on 4, Up Trent Valley on 5 and reversible on 6. I'd probably have preferred keeping the western bays with a potential Leicester train going from those or 6. But alas we've lost the chance to reopen to Leicester when someone plonked something 'orrible across the trackbed.
 
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Bald Rick

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It's crazy that you can't really get from Rugby to Leicester, a 16 mile journey without it taking 90 minutes, around an hour of that being waiting at Nuneaton as the onward connection has already left 1 minute before.

Apart from a coulle of gaps, theres a train every half hour or so from Nuneaton to Leicester; it seems the standard journey time from Rugby to Leicester is 1h 9 mins including a 27 minute wait at Nuneaton.
 

DJ_K666

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I've got 1hr 29 on national rail enquiries with a 56 minute wait at Nuneaton. Obviously via Coventry might change things too. That's on a Monday. I'll run a few on there and see what comes out. Half hourly would be better from Rugby to Nun but with one of those you'd still be relying on the Cross Country train being late. Even at 1hr 9 minutes that's still pretty dire.

I got 1h 17 via Cov, leaving Rugby at XX34 so not much of an improvement there either. Going via Nuneaton there's the XX42 off Rugby so I'll be driving instead. I can be there in about half an hour. The X84 bus takes a whopping 2 hours!
 
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Bald Rick

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I've got 1hr 29 on national rail enquiries with a 56 minute wait at Nuneaton. Obviously via Coventry might change things too. That's on a Monday. I'll run a few on there and see what comes out. Half hourly would be better from Rugby to Nun but with one of those you'd still be relying on the Cross Country train being late. Even at 1hr 9 minutes that's still pretty dire.

I got 1h 17 via Cov, leaving Rugby at XX34 so not much of an improvement there either. Going via Nuneaton there's the XX42 off Rugby so I'll be driving instead. I can be there in about half an hour. The X84 bus takes a whopping 2 hours!



The standard hour has the WMT arriving Nuneaton at xx57 (having left Rugby xx42), with departures to Leicester at xx24 / xx25 (occaisonally xx21), typically arriving xx50-52.

If you are looking at next Monday, as I suspect you are, there is engineering work on at Water Orton (this weekend and Monday only) causing an amended service.
 

DJ_K666

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The standard hour has the WMT arriving Nuneaton at xx57 (having left Rugby xx42), with departures to Leicester at xx24 / xx25 (occaisonally xx21), typically arriving xx50-52.

If you are looking at next Monday, as I suspect you are, there is engineering work on at Water Orton (this weekend and Monday only) causing an amended service.
That might be it.
 

RT4038

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It's crazy that you can't really get from Rugby to Leicester, a 16 mile journey without it taking 90 minutes, around an hour of that being waiting at Nuneaton as the onward connection has already left 1 minute before. You should not have to rely on a train being late just to be able to get somewhere in a reasonable time.
As a Rugby area resident you will also know that Rugby people don't (and never have) gone to Leicester very much. Neither the Midland or GC line carried many local passengers, hence their withdrawal, and the bus offer pretty thin since then, indicating not much business on offer. So spaffing hundreds of millions on re-instating a line for a local train probably isn't going to cut it, especially when a one change connection is available via Nuneaton every hour.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Both companies voted for amalgamation at meetings in late 1852 and a Bill was taken forward in 1853. But parliament was not taking kindly to amalgamations, things were postponed, and then never revived. The best summary I know of what was considered is the attached detail of the Bill as published by Herapath. Clement Stretton, in his History of the Midoland Railway (always to be used with caution!), writes (p.146): "In the following year (1852) the directors became firmly convinced that it was of vast importance to the prosperity of the Midland system that the Company should establish more or less direct connections with London, and negotiations were entered upon with representatives of the London and North Western Railway Company with a view to amalgamation. So essential was it considered that the Midland should be permanently identified with a line having a terminus in London that the amalgamation scheme was all but completed. The Midland terms were finally £60 in proportion to the London and North Western shares of £100, and the dividend to be pro rata on these amounts. The London and North Western would not agree to these terms, and offered amalgamation on the basis of £57 10s. per share, and on this difference of 50s. per share between the parties the negotiations were broken off. But meanwhile the Midland Company had established other arrangements, which enabled them to deal with their growing London traffic until the time was ripe for another forward movement." The same parliamentary session that saw the failure of the amalgamation Bill also saw the passing of the Leicester & Hitchin Act. That line was opened in spring 1857 and in February of the following year the Midland began to exercise its newly-acquired running powers to get to King's Cross. Euston was not at first abandoned, and the LNW route continued to be important for Midland coal until the Midland's own line was opened.

Great, thanks very interesting. I'm guessing longer term some kind of a cut off from Birmingham would have have to been built to London to avoid the growing traffic from the Midlands and North West south of Rugby. In this instance I'm sure the Great Central's alignment from Rugby to London would have been saved as a cut-off route.
 

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