What is ‘being able to sign a route’ and how did it come about?

[concerned1]

If my understanding is correct in order to be rostered to drive a train on a particular route on a particular day you have to:

- be trained on that planned train class or consist
- be able to ‘sign the route’ or have someone else in the cab who can ‘sign the route’ for you

Is ‘signing the route’ basically akin to knowing where all the stations are, where all the signals are, where the speed limits change and other things like that? How far does it actually go? Are you meant to be able to remember all the whistle stops, every junction, loop and level crossing, every tunnel, bridge, etc?

How did this come about? When did it become mandatory? Is it an insurance thing? Did it come out of a certain accident or health and safety recommendation? Is it a ‘Spanish Practice’? Did the unions mandate it, could/would it ever change? Is there a test you have to do for each route in order to be ‘passed’ to say that you can ‘sign that route’ and how often does that test have to be repeated?

Sorry for all the questions but it’s one of those things that have puzzled me for a while as I’m sure it’s there for a reason but clearly makes rostering a complicated process.

 

[TJM]

Have also always wondered, would it be so outrageous in the 21st Century to have a sort of transparent "Heads-up Display" guide to the route, giving all those facts as needed? Not like ERTMS/ETCS integrated to the signalling/control systems - just advisory. They manage it in cars, would be easy enough to retrofit as a standalone module cheaply, surely? No need to train existing route drivers on it either if they don't want it, they could just turn it off.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I’m sure it’s there for a reason

It’s generally been found helpful that when a train is barrelling along at 100mph+ in thick fog, for example, that the driver knows roughly where they are in relation to the next signal, speed restriction, station (passengers don’t like it when you don’t stop) etc.

 

[concerned1]

Have also always wondered, would it be so outrageous in the 21st Century to have a sort of transparent "Heads-up Display" guide to the route, giving all those facts as needed? Not like ERTMS/ETCS integrated to the signalling/control systems - just advisory. They manage it in cars, would be easy enough to retrofit as a standalone module cheaply, surely? No need to train existing route drivers on it either if they don't want it, they could just turn it off.

Sounds like an interesting idea… a sort of rail version of satnav with live traffic info?

 

[Gloster]

Something that I have explained to people and been laughed at for, although I think I am broadly correct, is that train drivers are nearer to Formula 1 drivers than an average car driver. Train drivers need to drive pretty well up to the limits of the line and the train: in order to do this they to know exactly where to speed up, slow, brake, etc. For safety reasons they also need to know exactly where a signal should be visible, where to sound a warning, the location of speed restrictions, etc. They also all need to be capable of doing this to roughly the same minimum standard so that you can don’t get one train stuck behind another that has a driver who is merely pootling along, and you can produce a timetable that is as attractive as possible (has the fastest services possible) and know all can keep to it.

 

[TJM]

Sounds like an interesting idea… a sort of rail version of satnav with live traffic info?

No need for trackside whistle post and speed limit reminders then - could even be updated with TSRs/ESRs - I'd call it a "driver advisory system"? Might be able to reduce the need for drivers to know the line like the back of their hand with less instructor requirements and training time too, if they already know the rolling stock?

 

[LowLevel]

"Signing" comes from the process used to record route knowledge - by traditional it was a "route card" - a printed card listing the various routes, diversions etc worked over by a given depot or area. The driver or guard signed for routes by initialling next to each route they were competent to work over, with it being checked and countersigned by an inspector during rules. Route exams are a more recent things, the process has varied over the years from self declaration, to having rideouts with an inspector to confirm the train is operated correctly, to sitting an assessment. More commonly route knowledge is now held virtually, my own card route card went in the shredder 3 or 4 years ago.

In the UK we use route signalling, whereby the driver follows the signals to a corresponding route, but learns speed restrictions and everything else they need to know separately which requires a high level of underpinning knowledge.

In other places they might use speed signalling, where the signals or in cab signalling tell the driver how fast to drive and the underpinning knowledge can be less.

It's been around a very long time (over 100 years) and is far from a Spanish practice or other such nonsense - traditional UK rail operations require it to function safely.

The best way to explain it's necessity is that with a car, you drive to what you can see. Same with a tram, generally.

With a train you're driving to things you can't yet see, often at speeds where you can't look them up because there isn't time, and needing to make control interventions well in advance to navigation restrictions or make station calls safely.

 

[GadgetMan]

Have also always wondered, would it be so outrageous in the 21st Century to have a sort of transparent "Heads-up Display" guide to the route, giving all those facts as needed? Not like ERTMS/ETCS integrated to the signalling/control systems - just advisory. They manage it in cars, would be easy enough to retrofit as a standalone module cheaply, surely? No need to train existing route drivers on it either if they don't want it, they could just turn it off.

It's a great idea in theory, but wouldn't work. You could be on Slow line with a line speed of 50mph, next to Fast line with a linespeed of 110mph. Sat Nav thinks you're a few metres to the left of current position and tells you to do 100mph instead of 50. You then have differential speeds on the smae track depending on train type etc to contend with.

You could be bombing down the line at 85mph and get flashing yellows for a 30mph crossover, how would the sat nav communicate this? Now it needs to also be connected to the signalling system and be reliable enough to be 100% accurate all of the time.

Those are just a couple of potential problems, the list is endless.

 

[TJM]

It's a great idea in theory, but wouldn't work. You could be on Slow line with a line speed of 50mph, next to Fast line with a linespeed of 110mph. Sat Nav thinks you're a few metres to the left of current position and tells you to do 100mph instead of 50. You then have differential speeds on the smae track depending on train type etc to contend with.

You could be bombing down the line at 85mph and get flashing yellows for a 30mph crossover, how would the sat nav communicate this? Now it needs to also be connected to the signalling system and be reliable enough to be 100% accurate all of the time.

Those are just a couple of potential problems, the list is endless.

I'm not sure the list is endless, that's rather pessimistic from an engineering perspective.. If everyone had said "it's too hard" we wouldn't have railways in this country in the first place!

Differentials per class can easily be stored in the relevant database, for instance, along with the diagram.

You wouldn't do it by GPS other than position perpendicular to the four lines, with the open signalling data available to the module so it knows what section you're in on which line. Plus you can triangulate further accuracy with GLONASS, Galileo, etc. on top; or use on-train odometers.

Plus, the idea is it doesn't tell you *what* the signal is going to show, it just tells you where it is!

 

[GadgetMan]

I'm not sure the list is endless, that's rather pessimistic from an engineering perspective.. If everyone had said "it's too hard" we wouldn't have railways in this country in the first place!

Differentials per class can easily be stored in the relevant database, for instance, along with the diagram.

You wouldn't do it by GPS other than position perpendicular to the four lines, with the open signalling data available to the module so it knows what section you're in. Plus you can triangulate further accuracy with GLONASS, Galileo, etc. on top; or use on-train odometers.

Plus, the idea is it doesn't tell you *what* the signal is going to show, it just tells you where it is!

But the post I quoted specifically suggested this would be a simple system NOT connected to signalling etc.

 

[TJM]

But the post I quoted specifically suggested this would be a simple system NOT connected to signalling etc.

Integrated would mean bilateral communication would it not? It wouldn't affect the signalling.

Edit: alternatively perhaps the HUD could be manually prodded to let it know you're going on a different route/line outside diagram and need advice?

 

[InkyScrolls]

"Signing" comes from the process used to record route knowledge - by traditional it was a "route card" - a printed card listing the various routes, diversions etc worked over by a given depot or area. The driver or guard signed for routes by initialling next to each route they were competent to work over, with it being checked and countersigned by an inspector during rules. Route exams are a more recent things, the process has varied over the years from self declaration, to having rideouts with an inspector to confirm the train is operated correctly, to sitting an assessment. More commonly route knowledge is now held virtually, my own card route card went in the shredder 3 or 4 years ago..

Northern still uses physical cards which must be signed and initialled.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Another couple of newbie questions from me:

1. Is there a limit to how many routes a driver can sign, and how often do they have to drive each route to keep their knowledge up to standard?

2. On a long winding charter service I take it that multiple different people will sit with the driver to sign different parts of the route?

 

[CE142]

You're driving at 125mph, it's a November night, the fog is that thick you can lean on it, the next station you stop at with just about accomodate the length of your train, as a Driver you know that the Round overbridge is were you shut off power, and that after that you start to brake at the second road bridge you start braking. It takes you a mile and a quarter to bring the train to a stop. That's why Drivers need to 'sign the route' It cannot be replaced by a GPS System. Because all Drivers do is press a few levers.

As a Guard your train is involved in an incident, you cannot speak to the Driver as he has been knocked out by the incident, he has managed to put the brake into Emergency, your train comes to a stand, do you know where you are? It's imperative that you Contact the Signalman immeadiately, giving as much details as possible. Such as what has happened, wether you need to 'protect' your train and stop any other trains from running into it if you have derailed and are fouling any other line and if you require the emergency services etc.
That's why Guards also need to 'sign the Route' Because as this Forum keeps telling you that all Guards do, is sit in the back cab with their feet up/ press a button to close the doors.

 

[Facing Back]

You're driving at 125mph, it's a November night, the fog is that thick you can lean on it, the next station you stop at with just about accomodate the length of your train, as a Driver you know that the Round overbridge is were you shut off power, and that after that you start to brake at the second road bridge you start braking. It takes you a mile and a quarter to bring the train to a stop. That's why Drivers need to 'sign the route' It cannot be replaced by a GPS System. Because all Drivers do is press a few levers.

As a Guard your train is involved in an incident, you cannot speak to the Driver as he has been knocked out by the incident, he has managed to put the brake into Emergency, your train comes to a stand, do you know where you are? It's imperative that you Contact the Signalman immeadiately, giving as much details as possible. Such as what has happened, wether you need to 'protect' your train and stop any other trains from running into it if you have derailed and are fouling any other line and if you require the emergency services etc.
That's why Guards also need to 'sign the Route' Because as this Forum keeps telling you that all Guards do, is sit in the back cab with their feet up/ press a button to close the doors.

I'm sorry, I'm sure this won't be popular with drivers and whilst I'm unconvinced about the long term case for this level of route knowledge, the scenario you describe would surely better better mitigated by technology. At 125mph, or 186 on HS1 or 225 (or 250 one day?) on HS2, surely the mark one eyeball attached to human reflexes is not the optimal solution for working out where to take power away or apply the brakes?

 

[concerned1]

I'm sorry, I'm sure this won't be popular with drivers and whilst I'm unconvinced about the long term case for this level of route knowledge, the scenario you describe would surely better better mitigated by technology. At 125mph, or 186 on HS1 or 225 (or 250 one day?) on HS2, surely the mark one eyeball attached to human reflexes is not the optimal solution for working out where to take power away or apply the brakes?

Agreed. And if you look at the way AI is heading with driverless cars some of the hurdles described here are nothing compared with number of variables contained on the roads.

 

[Taunton]

It's been around a very long time (over 100 years) and is far from a Spanish practice or other such nonsense - traditional UK rail operations require it to function safely.

I don't think for that long. Crews originally got their knowledge from initial years as firemen, under the driver's (often informal) guidance, which would get checked to an extent when passed for driving by the inspector (always at Swindon, on the Western). The shedmaster would just know who could best handle oddball diversions and excursions, otherwise the driver would ask for a conductor. Many accounts of groping slowly through unfamiliar places.

 

[Sonik]

I'm sorry, I'm sure this won't be popular with drivers and whilst I'm unconvinced about the long term case for this level of route knowledge, the scenario you describe would surely better better mitigated by technology. At 125mph, or 186 on HS1 or 225 (or 250 one day?) on HS2, surely the mark one eyeball attached to human reflexes is not the optimal solution for working out where to take power away or apply the brakes?

The issue with such is that this simply moves the burden of responsibility from the driver, to those who create the system, write the software etc. While it's obviously easier to plan for eventualities in advance with the luxury of time and reflection, all people are fallible, including those who create systems. Within a team building such systems, there is also a danger of 'groupthink' establishing a belief that all eventualities have been covered, when in reality this is clearly impossible.

There are many examples where a complex and detailed safety system/procedure has failed to mitigate against a particular complex set of circumstances that no one predicted might happen. The first channel tunnel fire would be a good example.

 

[bramling]

Something that I have explained to people and been laughed at for, although I think I am broadly correct, is that train drivers are nearer to Formula 1 drivers than an average car driver. Train drivers need to drive pretty well up to the limits of the line and the train: in order to do this they to know exactly where to speed up, slow, brake, etc. For safety reasons they also need to know exactly where a signal should be visible, where to sound a warning, the location of speed restrictions, etc. They also all need to be capable of doing this to roughly the same minimum standard so that you can don’t get one train stuck behind another that has a driver who is merely pootling along, and you can produce a timetable that is as attractive as possible (has the fastest services possible) and know all can keep to it.

That’s not a bad comparison for sure, though it’s only going to be proper formula 1 in certain rather specific circumstances, something like the special speed runs which happen from time to time, or perhaps even a LU driver attempting to keep pace with ATO speeds. If car drivers in particular were competent to the same standards as rail then the roads would be much better.

I'm sorry, I'm sure this won't be popular with drivers and whilst I'm unconvinced about the long term case for this level of route knowledge, the scenario you describe would surely better better mitigated by technology. At 125mph, or 186 on HS1 or 225 (or 250 one day?) on HS2, surely the mark one eyeball attached to human reflexes is not the optimal solution for working out where to take power away or apply the brakes?

Whilst the above is perfectly logical, it seems to be the case that ATO systems *haven’t* yet surpassed the well-trained human. We just about have ATO for metro applications where the trains run in a relatively tightly controlled environment, and that has taken decades to reach a point where it’s barely mature, and still fraught with issues.

The big danger with ATO is swapping one set of issues for another. The industry has, to its considerable collective credit, put a massive amount of effort into getting human driver performance very high indeed, hence ATO systems have a high bar to match let alone beat. I would say we aren’t even close to the point where ATO is optimal for anything other than metro-based applications.

It does seem to be the case that for most of the railway, we have reached a plateau - a sweet-spot combination of human driving supported by safety systems and devices, which seems to offer the best of all worlds. Even with an ATO system there will still need to be substantial route knowledge.

 

[zwk500]

At 125mph, or 186 on HS1 or 225 (or 250 one day?) on HS2, surely the mark one eyeball attached to human reflexes is not the optimal solution for working out where to take power away or apply the brakes?

HS1 has TVM-430 signalling and HS2 will have ETCS, both of which supervise a drivers speed and are capable of activating the brakes if the curve is exceeded too far.

 

[dk1]

As a driver if I don’t pass over a particular route for six months then a ‘refresher’ gets put in. I will not be rostered a diagram over that route until this is completed.

 

[Magdalia]

Over the Christmas and New Year period there are lots of big engineering projects that are making big changes to track layouts and signalling.

Nevertheless, train services resume almost immediately after the engineers have finished.

How do the traincrew operating the trains learn and sign off this week's track layouts and signalling, that might be significantly different from last week?

 

[dk1]

Over the Christmas and New Year period there are lots of big engineering projects that are making big changes to track layouts and signalling.

Nevertheless, train services resume almost immediately after the engineers have finished.

How do the traincrew operating the trains learn and sign off this week's track layouts and signalling, that might be significantly different from last week?

The changes are normally not that much & very limited. Drivers are normally well briefed before hand with what was known as a ‘yellow peril’ & now often in the form of a video download of the new infrastructure &/or any changes. At my particular TOC we are normally given a few hours overtime or in some cases a Rest Day Worked payment to study this. On our first trip we can be accompanied if necessary.

 

[DoubleO]

Over the Christmas and New Year period there are lots of big engineering projects that are making big changes to track layouts and signalling.

Nevertheless, train services resume almost immediately after the engineers have finished.

How do the traincrew operating the trains learn and sign off this week's track layouts and signalling, that might be significantly different from last week?

That depends on the nature of the works. Sometimes a significant project will renew infrastructure like for like, so no retraining is required. For simple changes a fairly basic document/brief can be issued in advance. For more complex changes full route maps and videos will be issued and drivers will attend a training day in advance to be fully briefed on the changes.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Over the Christmas and New Year period there are lots of big engineering projects that are making big changes to track layouts and signalling.

Nevertheless, train services resume almost immediately after the engineers have finished.

How do the traincrew operating the trains learn and sign off this week's track layouts and signalling, that might be significantly different from last week?

Through Weekly Operating Notices that are signed for on a Saturday, or Periodical that are issues every 3 months.

If it's something very short notice, then it can be put in the Late Notice Case. All these things are part of the booking on process which states you have all the required equipment and have checked notices prior to starting your shift.

 

[DoubleO]

Through Weekly Operating Notices that are signed for on a Saturday, or Periodical that are issues every 3 months.

If it's something very short notice, then it can be put in the Late Notice Case. All these things are part of the booking on process which states you have all the required equipment and have checked notices prior to starting your shift.

The WON may include a written description of infrastructure changes and an updated table A diagram but it wouldn't contain the correct information required to brief a driver to the required standard and would also not necessarily be published early enough to allow for a thorough briefing.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I'm sorry, I'm sure this won't be popular with drivers and whilst I'm unconvinced about the long term case for this level of route knowledge, the scenario you describe would surely better better mitigated by technology. At 125mph, or 186 on HS1 or 225 (or 250 one day?) on HS2, surely the mark one eyeball attached to human reflexes is not the optimal solution for working out where to take power away or apply the brakes?

It's not only a matter of eyesight. It's also about experience and judgement of driving conditions. For example, in autumn with leaves on the rails: one day it's raining, the next day, it's not. Technology can not completely replace human judgement.

 

[snakeydave24]

I’m pretty sure the class 800’s on the TMS has a system that knows exactly where you are (what line, next station etc) and can give you speed limits and distances to where they change etc, I believe this has also been retrofitted to the Class 390’s, I’m not sure if it’s in use but I’m sure someone told me about it

 

[zwk500]

I’m pretty sure the class 800’s on the TMS has a system that knows exactly where you are (what line, next station etc) and can give you speed limits and distances to where they change etc, I believe this has also been retrofitted to the Class 390’s, I’m not sure if it’s in use but I’m sure someone told me about it

It's not accurate to distinguish between different running lines, because the SDO system often needs manually confirming

 

[Western Lord]

It's not only a matter of eyesight. It's also about experience and judgement of driving conditions. For example, in autumn with leaves on the rails: one day it's raining, the next day, it's not. Technology can not completely replace human judgement.

Drivers don't rely solely on eyesight to know where they are, they can "feel" the road beneath them so that even in fog they know where they are, though perhaps the demise of jointed track makes this less obvious in some places. As regards signing the road, a rather important aspect which nobody has mentioned is gradients. Knowing when to apply and shut off power is rather important. In the days of steam the fireman needed to know when to start shovelling for an upcoming gradient.