What is first class for?

[HowardGWR]

Mod note: Split from this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134209

In 2008 I was travelling back to Leicester (where I lived then) from Manchester. I took a TPE service from Manchester to Sheffield which was packed in Standard and about a quarter full in First. People, including me, decided to sit in First but the guard was having none of it. Despite being a really hot day and people being packed in like sardines in Standard, he was happy to allow that to continue and charge anyone the appropriate upgrade if they sat in First.

I guess it was his call but common sense should have prevailed there. His customer service skills left a lot to be desired.

I get that First Class passengers have paid more for their fares, but Standard passengers have also paid a fare too. If the train is that overcrowded and the only seats available are more expensive, they should still be used. I'm glad that some guards do actually see that.

You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

 

[anti-pacer]

You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

I said First was a quarter full.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

TPE First, until they get their new stock and thus up capacity to somewhere vaguely near where it needs to be, will continue to be like South East commuter First - it's about getting a seat.

In that context it doesn't often make sense to declassify unless people physically can't board.

 

[47271]

You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

I've made this point about TPE First Class in a number of other threads, but the reason I pay the extra (through work) is because I can't physically function with a laptop in the woefully small Standard Class table seats they have. It's nothing to do with the people using either class.

By contrast I'd never waste money on First on Scotrail because the Standard table seats on their 170s fit me very well.

The only time I'd object to TPE Standard passengers sitting in First, invited or otherwise, is when I have a valid ticket for that section but can't sit down and get on, but that's never happened - yet.

My experience of the operator, especially now on the 350s between Manchester and Preston, is Standard absolutely rammed standing and First half full. Very rarely does anyone try it on and invite themselves in. I think the main reason being that the trolley gets stuck in the First Class vestibule when it's that busy, and as a result they're always asking to see tickets so they can dispense free refreshments!

 

[pne]

The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves.

The discussion about "the whole idea of first class" pops up occasionally, and various people have various opinions of what "the whole idea" is, what a first-class ticket is supposed to guarantee, and so on.

 

[ScotTrains]

You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

I wouldn't be happy too! One time during the Edinburgh fringe a few years ago First class was declassified. There were std class (intoxicated) people standing in first class singing/swearing/drinking and eating burgers. Having paid extra to travel first class I promptly complained and got my money back. If this was allowed to happen regularly I would simply drive rather than take the train.
I also think there should be a penalty fine for sitting in first class without receiving permission first. This would discourage any chancers.

 

[Amy Worrall]

You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

For me, first class is all about getting a seat with a table during the peak. It's not about avoiding a specific class of person (although I am rather glad that you don't tend to find rowdy groups with stacks of empty beer cans).

If letting standard class passengers in meant I had someone across from me where otherwise I wouldn't have, I might be slightly annoyed (mostly about the reduced leg room)… but I wouldn't feel justified in my annoyance, so I'd keep it to myself!

If they sat somewhere nowhere near me, and as long as there wasn't some other reason they were annoying, then I couldn't care less!

If the train was so crowded that they let a bunch of people in and it resulted in people standing in first, and/or it meant they were unable to cater (not enough food, can't get the trolley through), then I'd expect the train company to count it as declassified and subsequently issue me a refund on the extra I paid, if I could be bothered to apply for it. It would annoy me a lot if I was one of the ones having to stand!

(On the subject of standing, I felt very sorry for a couple of businessmen on a Voyager I once travelled on. There was one seat left when the three of us got on, and the bloke who was ahead of me kindly said I could have it —*they then stood in the wheelchair area. When the staff came round with tea, they refused to give the men any because it'd be dangerous to have tea when standing. Which seemed like insult to injury, especially as they had a table at their disposal, and the shop would have been happy to supply them with tea.)

 

[Starmill]

TPE First, until they get their new stock and thus up capacity to somewhere vaguely near where it needs to be, will continue to be like South East commuter First - it's about getting a seat.

This was wrong the first time you said it, it's wrong now and if you keep saying it again in future, it will probably be wrong then too

 

[HowardGWR]

I wouldn't be happy too! One time during the Edinburgh fringe a few years ago First class was declassified. There were std class (intoxicated) people standing in first class singing/swearing/drinking and eating burgers. Having paid extra to travel first class I promptly complained and got my money back. If this was allowed to happen regularly I would simply drive rather than take the train.
I also think there should be a penalty fine for sitting in first class without receiving permission first. This would discourage any chancers.

QED

Poll of one is admittedly somewhat a restricted sample.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wouldn't be happy too! One time during the Edinburgh fringe a few years ago First class was declassified. There were std class (intoxicated) people standing in first class singing/swearing/drinking and eating burgers. Having paid extra to travel first class I promptly complained and got my money back. If this was allowed to happen regularly I would simply drive rather than take the train.
I also think there should be a penalty fine for sitting in first class without receiving permission first. This would discourage any chancers.

Penalty fares don't discourage chancers. I commute on SWT and I see it all the time.

I've long been of the opinion that first class should be removed on all trains except long distance intercity services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Penalty fares don't discourage chancers. I commute on SWT and I see it all the time.

I've long been of the opinion that first class should be removed on all trains except long distance intercity services.

I'd be inclined to agree on the basis of it being a waste of capacity where there are capacity constraints.

It should be used to allow people to choose a higher standard of accommodation and/or service if they wish, not as a means of getting a seat. That, as you say, tends to be on IC services.

 

[ScotTrains]

Penalty fares don't discourage chancers. I commute on SWT and I see it all the time.

I've long been of the opinion that first class should be removed on all trains except long distance intercity services.

When someone gets a fine (parking, speeding, etc) it makes them more vigilant and less likely to re-offend in the future. Fines work IMHO.

I'd actually like to see more first class conveyance on rural trains. The extra ticket cost should be low enough to encourage people to use it. Many rural lines in Europe have first class costing not much more than standard. This would provide extra income for train companies while making journeys more pleasant for those who upgrade to first. This encourages repeat usage.

The Inverness to Wick, Thurso, and Kyle trains have first class sections but don't charge for first class yet there is always a rush to get into the first class section by locals and those in the know. On this four hour plus journey I'm sure people would be quite happy to pay a little extra (eg £5 or so) to travel first class with the slightly better comfort, power socket, curtains and complimentary cup of tea.

On routes that are overcrowded I'd like to see a third/economy class style conveyance with high density seats and no tables or luggage space. A bit like a megabus for people who just want a seat to get to work for the lowest price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On routes that are overcrowded I'd like to see a third/economy class style conveyance with high density seats and no tables or luggage space. A bit like a megabus for people who just want a seat to get to work for the lowest price.

That's precisely what they have on commuter routes as Standard, if you hadn't noticed

 

[Blamethrower]

That's precisely what they have on commuter routes as Standard, if you hadn't noticed

Then bring in another class above current 1st. 1st class in my opinion just isn't. Perhaps on Intercity, but not on any kind of regional or commuter stock.

Regional/commuter should say standard and premium class.

First class should be preserved for people who get a meal/food/table/comfortable, reclining seat, curtains, quietness etc.

Each first class compartment should therefore have a minimum of foam in the seats similar to heathrow express - comfortable trains can be constructed, we just don't do it outside of a 20 - 30 minute airport shuttle.

First - Hex style reclining seats, tables/seat back tables, meals/food, curtains, digital displays, carpet, quietness, foot rests, leg room, arm/shoulder room

Premium - Medium padded seats, armrests, seat back tables/tables, digital displays (bit like class 700 first)

Standard - as 700 standard - essentially cattle class designed to fit in as many as possible, standing or seating.

3 classes, job done, no more bllsht

 

[Deepgreen]

GTR have seemingly given up enforcing First, and the re-appearance of the TTIs a few months ago was very brief. Useless - people are simply ignoring the class restriction more and more (especially irritating when there are empty seats next door in standard for them!). A farce.

 

[physics34]

GTR have seemingly given up enforcing First, and the re-appearance of the TTIs a few months ago was very brief. Useless - people are simply ignoring the class restriction more and more (especially irritating when there are empty seats next door in standard for them!). A farce.

there isnt really a point in First class on southern services except for longer distance routes and during the peak.

It should be permanently disclassified on a number of units, but for the fact that the stock is used all over the network.

It would be better if units of varying types be used on just certainly services but this takes away the flexibilty that there currently is.

Im hoping though that after the stock cascades are complete in 2018 that Southern can do allocate specific services, i. e all metro services to be standard class only and high density... and coastal services to have first class with better seating throughout.

I cant really comment about TL or GN.

 

[Amy Worrall]

Then bring in another class above current 1st. 1st class in my opinion just isn't. Perhaps on Intercity, but not on any kind of regional or commuter stock.

I think things should be listed as four different classes:

Economy: the current standard class.

Premium Economy: any form of accommodation which is distinct from the standard class on the same train. No minimum requirements apart from that it's in a separate area. London Midland's current first class would count as premium economy.

Business: at a minimum, fixed (not fold down) tables at every seat, power sockets at the majority of seats, wifi, plus complementary drinks and snacks on any journey longer than 20 minutes. (Can charge extra for food.) Chiltern's business class would be this.

First: at a minimum, full complementary at-seat food service with proper crockery on any journey longer than 30 minutes (plus everything business class offers). Virgin West Coast's weekday first class would be this.

The same carriages could be used as different classes depending on staff levels. So Virgin could run first class service in the week, business class at weekends. And if food service was unavailable for whatever reason, then it would count as first class being unavailable, and people would be able to apply for a refund of the difference in price.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The only time I'd object to TPE Standard passengers sitting in First, invited or otherwise, is when I have a valid ticket for that section but can't sit down and get on, but that's never happened - yet.

I always object to it. It isn't a case of "not wanting to mix with the hoi polloi"- I'm from Bradford for crying out loud- it's more a sense of fairness. Why should somebody else get for free what I've had to fork out proper cash for? Nothing annoys me more than when someone gets a free upgrade from a busy standard class carriage with the puppy dog eyes; I know standard is going to be rammed so fork out the extra.

The same carriages could be used as different classes depending on staff levels.

InterCity tried that back in the day, with silver standard (a standard class carriage but you got an antimacassar and a mug of tea), and it wasn't really a success.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think things should be listed as four different classes:

Interestingly, Indian Railways take that approach - each train only usually has 2 or 3 of the 10+ classes that exist, but each one has its own name and means you know what you're getting.

I like the idea that 2+2 should not be considered First Class but some kind of premium economy. I only choose First Class to get the seat on the 1 side as I dislike being squashed up against people, and also like both a window seat and being able to get up when I want.

 

[DarloRich]

My views on first class on trains ( and especially the first class railcard warrior brigade) get me into trouble with the forum overseers.

I will simply say I don't like it and want to see it removed or reduced to one carriage of very highly priced luxury travel on intercity routes in order to create more space for the rest of us to actually get a seat.

Oh and don't get me started on the complimentary refreshments. That cup of free tea you whine about costs us £2.50 in cattle.....................

 

[Marton]

I am looking for space, more privacy and work space. Thankfully EC has quiet carriages in first.

Where I feel disadvantaged is the cost of flexibility and lack of guarantee of a seat.

I also wonder if quiet coach seats should be offered to those with children's tickets (stand back await explosion).

 

[DarloRich]

I am looking for space, more privacy and work space. Thankfully EC has quiet carriages in first.

Where I feel disadvantaged is the cost of flexibility and lack of guarantee of a seat.

I also wonder if quiet coach seats should be offered to those with children's tickets (stand back await explosion).

I do take the point but I don't think sale / travel should be refused. After all it is, despite what many seem to think, a quiet coach rather than a silent coach. I will withhold the explosion as it will let out all of my bile produced by the thought of snobby first class travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do take the point but I don't think sale / travel should be refused. After all it is, despite what many seem to think, a quiet coach rather than a silent coach. I will withhold the explosion as it will let out all of my bile produced by the thought of snobby first class travel.

What's snobby about a larger person (no, I'm not *that* fat, I'm just quite big in all dimensions) wanting to pay more in order to obtain a seat more comfortable for them?

That's the only reason I do first class. And I am finding myself doing it more these days than I was.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I will simply say I don't like it and want to see it removed or reduced to one carriage of very highly priced luxury travel on intercity routes in order to create more space for the rest of us to actually get a seat.

I have enough money to buy a cheap first class seat (but certainly not a full fare one), but regardless of class I'd still be on the train taking up a seat.

 

[Master29]

Mod note: Split from this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134209



You didn't mention whether the first class was empty. If it was, then perhaps he could have allowed it. If, however, I had been a first class passenger, I would have fumed. The whole idea of the class, and why people pay the huge amount, is so that they are more or less guaranteed to avoid contact with hoi polloi and all that such contact involves. I can't afford first class (or won't afford it) but travelling second often involves unpleasant experiences (noise, smells and very occasionally, threats).

Why should you have to put up with that in standard anyway. We accept to much crap in Britain. However, like you I would have been annoyed if I had paid well for the 1st class privilege.

 

[Deepgreen]

I always object to it. It isn't a case of "not wanting to mix with the hoi polloi"- I'm from Bradford for crying out loud- it's more a sense of fairness. Why should somebody else get for free what I've had to fork out proper cash for? Nothing annoys me more than when someone gets a free upgrade from a busy standard class carriage with the puppy dog eyes; I know standard is going to be rammed so fork out the extra.



InterCity tried that back in the day, with silver standard (a standard class carriage but you got an antimacassar and a mug of tea), and it wasn't really a success.

Quite.

 

[al78]

Why should you have to put up with that in standard anyway. We accept to much crap in Britain. However, like you I would have been annoyed if I had paid well for the 1st class privilege.

Because it is public transport, which unavoidably involves mingling with the public, many of whom are either spatially incompetant, thoughtless, careless, stupid or children in adult bodies. Welcome to the flaky UK.

 

[Senex]

I always object to it. It isn't a case of "not wanting to mix with the hoi polloi"- I'm from Bradford for crying out loud- it's more a sense of fairness. Why should somebody else get for free what I've had to fork out proper cash for? Nothing annoys me more than when someone gets a free upgrade from a busy standard class carriage with the puppy dog eyes; I know standard is going to be rammed so fork out the extra.

That's the strongest argument. If the business is offering a premium product at a premium price then it should not degrade the offer and effectively defraud those who have paid up by letting others in for free, no matter how many puppy-dog eyes or other claims for special treatment.

 

[DarloRich]

That's the strongest argument. If the business is offering a premium product at a premium price then it should not degrade the offer and effectively defraud those who have paid up by letting others in for free, no matter how many puppy-dog eyes or other claims for special treatment.

so there is one of you in first class and a grossly overloaded second class. You don't think people should be accommodated in your section on the basis you have paid more?

 

[anti-pacer]

What annoys me about Intercity First Class is the difference I saw when I did my First Class ALR.

GWR's offerings were snacks and soft drinks, Greater Anglia's was the same but very restricted. Compare this to VTEC and VTWC, and even ATW's Gerald train.