What is first class for?

[les.]

When someone gets a fine (parking, speeding, etc) it makes them more vigilant and less likely to re-offend in the future. Fines work IMHO.

I'd actually like to see more first class conveyance on rural trains. The extra ticket cost should be low enough to encourage people to use it. Many rural lines in Europe have first class costing not much more than standard. This would provide extra income for train companies while making journeys more pleasant for those who upgrade to first. This encourages repeat usage.

The Inverness to Wick, Thurso, and Kyle trains have first class sections but don't charge for first class yet there is always a rush to get into the first class section by locals and those in the know. On this four hour plus journey I'm sure people would be quite happy to pay a little extra (eg £5 or so) to travel first class with the slightly better comfort, power socket, curtains and complimentary cup of tea.

On routes that are overcrowded I'd like to see a third/economy class style conveyance with high density seats and no tables or luggage space. A bit like a megabus for people who just want a seat to get to work for the lowest price.

Do they? I've travelled the Inverness to Kyle line, about a dozen times and can't say I've ever seen a first class section on any of the trains I've been on.

 

[Deepgreen]

Do they? I've travelled the Inverness to Kyle line, about a dozen times and can't say I've ever seen a first class section on any of the trains I've been on.

There is no first class on those lines.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You don't think people should be accommodated in your section on the basis you have paid more?

I think they can pay the appropriate amount to upgrade, or I can get a refund of the extra I did pay.

If guards declassify first class officially then fine, they can send the cheque to the usual address, but it's the puppy dog eyes free upgrades on VTEC that annoy me. I book first class on a Friday teatime out of London and pay the premium because I know standard will be a zoo. Why should someone else get it for nowt?

 

[les.]

There is no first class on those lines.

That's what I thought. It was just that Scottrains post said that there is.

 

[Deepgreen]

To answer the OP's question rather tritely:

First class ticket holders.

 

[Iskra]

There is no first class on those lines.

But some of the 158's on those lines have small first class sections in them. I sat in the first class section to Kyle and back earlier this year. It is in essence a free upgrade.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do they? I've travelled the Inverness to Kyle line, about a dozen times and can't say I've ever seen a first class section on any of the trains I've been on.

At one end of the train there is a small first class section. It's not a seperate compartment, but there is a partition. There are power sockets, antimacassars and slightly more room. It is declassified when in use of the Kyle line.

 

[Deepgreen]

But some of the 158's on those lines have small first class sections in them. I sat in the first class section to Kyle and back earlier this year. It is in essence a free upgrade.

Indeed, but I thought the point was being made that they had genuine first class fares. The use of stock with first class sections on standard-only routes is not uncommon - Southern do it a great deal with their 377s and GWR with their 166s.

 

[anti-pacer]

Indeed, but I thought the point was being made that they had genuine first class fares. The use of stock with first class sections on standard-only routes is not uncommon - Southern do it a great deal with their 377s and GWR with their 166s.

As Northern are leasing TPE 185's on their Windermere services, and Northern don't operate First Class on their trains, I was rather surprised to be asked to move.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People on this website in the past had made comment that the Manchester to Blackpool service when run by First TPE had the three car Class 185 units with a first-class section on this route was not one worthy of first class accommodation, despite the time it takes from Manchester Airport to the Fylde area.

Having a hospital visit to make to my wife's eldest sister (88) at Clifton Hospital in the Lytham St Annes area, we decided yesterday to save ourselves the hassle of fighting the good fight on the M6 and the M55 with the Range Rover on a hot and sunny August day during the school holiday period and to use the new Northern franchise service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North, taking advantage of the parking space that I still hold there and dusted off the 3-year Senior Citizen Railcards that we held. Of course, there was no first class accommodation in the 2 x 2 car Class 156 units that formed the service, but since we were boarding an empty train there we found a table seated area and two facing seats. On the outward 1029 journey, the train filled at Manchester Piccadilly, but the journey was bearable, being only mid-morning.

The return journey on the 1712 service was a totally different kettle of fish. After enduring the wait in a crocodile queue for eons, when the gate was finally opened to allow access to the train, the waiting horde surged forward in a scene reminiscent of the start of the Grand National and when we were able to board the train, we had the chance fortunately to obtain seats together thanks to a family from Germany who were on holiday in England who made their children offer their seats to us, on noticing that Patricia (75) was using her walking stick. The carriage that we were in was full of families with young children who must have been hot and tired at the end of a long sunny seaside day and the combined cacophony of their complaints had to be endured to be believed and this lasted until the majority decamped at Manchester Piccadilly.

The next hospital visit there will see the Range Rover being used on quiet country roads to access the Fylde area.

 

[ScotTrains]

Do they? I've travelled the Inverness to Kyle line, about a dozen times and can't say I've ever seen a first class section on any of the trains I've been on.

The Inverness based class 158's had a small declassified first class section at one end. It had table lights, power socket, curtains, antimacassars, wood effect table veneers, etc. It was well know amongst locals.http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62727
It has been over 2 years since I last travelled up to Wick so Abellio may have removed it during the current refurbishment although I'm not sure on this. I believe there has been declassified first class accommodation on the route after the 158's replaced the 156's at the turn of the century.

To avoid any confusion I when I said Scotrail don't change for first class I meant it is declassified. The point I made was that I personally think they should charge a little for it. I'm sure people would be willing to pay a little extra for the benefits of first class (in this case namely the power socket, curtains, free tea etc), especially on a four hour journey.

 

[anti-pacer]

People on this website in the past had made comment that the Manchester to Blackpool service when run by First TPE had the three car Class 185 units with a first-class section on this route was not one worthy of first class accommodation, despite the time it takes from Manchester Airport to the Fylde area.

Having a hospital visit to make to my wife's eldest sister (88) at Clifton Hospital in the Lytham St Annes area, we decided yesterday to save ourselves the hassle of fighting the good fight on the M6 and the M55 with the Range Rover on a hot and sunny August day during the school holiday period and to use the new Northern franchise service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North, taking advantage of the parking space that I still hold there and dusted off the 3-year Senior Citizen Railcards that we held. Of course, there was no first class accommodation in the 2 x 2 car Class 156 units that formed the service, but since we were boarding an empty train there we found a table seated area and two facing seats. On the outward 1029 journey, the train filled at Manchester Piccadilly, but the journey was bearable, being only mid-morning.

The return journey on the 1712 service was a totally different kettle of fish. After enduring the wait in a crocodile queue for eons, when the gate was finally opened to allow access to the train, the waiting horde surged forward in a scene reminiscent of the start of the Grand National and when we were able to board the train, we had the chance fortunately to obtain seats together thanks to a family from Germany who were on holiday in England who made their children offer their seats to us, on noticing that Patricia (75) was using her walking stick. The carriage that we were in was full of families with young children who must have been hot and tired at the end of a long sunny seaside day and the combined cacophony of their complaints had to be endured to be believed and this lasted until the majority decamped at Manchester Piccadilly.

The next hospital visit there will see the Range Rover being used on quiet country roads to access the Fylde area.

If I were you Paul, I'd have taken the TPE Glasgow/Edinburgh trains to Preston where you could have enjoyed First Class, and then endured the Pacer for 30 mins to Lytham/St Anne's for your final leg.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do it as 2+1 and I probably would.

I'm not interested in paying for 2+2 First, it's pointless.

 

[duesselmartin]

Here in Germany I find staff is friendlier in 1st. Is that also the case in the UK?

 

[Senex]

so there is one of you in first class and a grossly overloaded second class. You don't think people should be accommodated in your section on the basis you have paid more?

If they pay to upgrade, that's fine. Otherwise no. The company has made a business choice to offer first class and it should then honour the offering, not open it up to all and sundry for no extra charge because it has got its pricing policy wrong so that there are too many people in standard class on that train.

 

[anti-pacer]

If they pay to upgrade, that's fine. Otherwise no. The company has made a business choice to offer first class and it should then honour the offering, not open it up to all and sundry for no extra charge because it has got its pricing policy wrong so that there are too many people in standard class on that train.

I have a solution to this and it will increase capacity.

Reintroduce THIRD CLASS, therefore increasing seats available in Standard. This means the First Class won't be disturbed or disgruntled. It's dead easy too, to provide Third Class all TOC's would need to do is attach a Pacer to the rear of the train - job done!

 

[yorkie]

This was wrong the first time you said it, it's wrong now and if you keep saying it again in future, it will probably be wrong then too

Absolutely. I sometimes go 1st class, not to simply get a seat, but to get an individual seat, or a table for two. The seats are nicer, there's more space. it's genuine first class, it's nothing like the mickey mouse GTR 1st class! If we're travelling as a group of 4, it's less of an issue, but you do get more space with a 1st class table for 4.

 

[Bevan Price]

When someone gets a fine (parking, speeding, etc) it makes them more vigilant and less likely to re-offend in the future. Fines work IMHO.

I'd actually like to see more first class conveyance on rural trains. The extra ticket cost should be low enough to encourage people to use it. Many rural lines in Europe have first class costing not much more than standard. This would provide extra income for train companies while making journeys more pleasant for those who upgrade to first. This encourages repeat usage.

.

I think that there should be no first class on any trains unless there is enough standard class seating to meet normal requirements - and that means definitely no first class in any 2 or 3 coach dmus.

 

[Rich McLean]

The only reason I travel first class is if I know the train is going to be crush loaded, in order to give me a better chance of a seat and better travelling environment.

 

[DarloRich]

As I have said I would like to see FC removed although i doubt that is feasible. Therefore i would like to see it upgraded to offer a true premier service on intercity lines. I would increase the cost, reduce the space provided , remove advances and railcard discounts ( unless late space is available) and make it truly exclusive and most importantly expensive! I would also like to "level up" standards in scum class so that all can have a better chance of a seat and a better chance of some comfort and service.

People on this website in the past had made comment that the Manchester to Blackpool service when run by First TPE had the three car Class 185 units with a first-class section on this route was not one worthy of first class accommodation, despite the time it takes from Manchester Airport to the Fylde area.

Having a hospital visit to make to my wife's eldest sister (88) at Clifton Hospital in the Lytham St Annes area, we decided yesterday to save ourselves the hassle of fighting the good fight on the M6 and the M55 with the Range Rover on a hot and sunny August day during the school holiday period and to use the new Northern franchise service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North, taking advantage of the parking space that I still hold there and dusted off the 3-year Senior Citizen Railcards that we held. Of course, there was no first class accommodation in the 2 x 2 car Class 156 units that formed the service, but since we were boarding an empty train there we found a table seated area and two facing seats. On the outward 1029 journey, the train filled at Manchester Piccadilly, but the journey was bearable, being only mid-morning.

The return journey on the 1712 service was a totally different kettle of fish. After enduring the wait in a crocodile queue for eons, when the gate was finally opened to allow access to the train, the waiting horde surged forward in a scene reminiscent of the start of the Grand National and when we were able to board the train, we had the chance fortunately to obtain seats together thanks to a family from Germany who were on holiday in England who made their children offer their seats to us, on noticing that Patricia (75) was using her walking stick. The carriage that we were in was full of families with young children who must have been hot and tired at the end of a long sunny seaside day and the combined cacophony of their complaints had to be endured to be believed and this lasted until the majority decamped at Manchester Piccadilly.

The next hospital visit there will see the Range Rover being used on quiet country roads to access the Fylde area.

And people wonder why I think travelling first class is snobby!

If they pay to upgrade, that's fine. Otherwise no. The company has made a business choice to offer first class and it should then honour the offering, not open it up to all and sundry for no extra charge because it has got its pricing policy wrong so that there are too many people in standard class on that train.

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

It also over looks the fact many in standard will have paid a higher fare than your first class one and are in essence subsidising your travel. Plus you could say the TOC have got thier pricing structure wrong by having so few FC passengers at many times of the day! Personally I think if FC has to be declassified ( as terrible as that must be for you) you should get a refund, at least until we can remove first class entirely.

 

[miami]

Do it as 2+1 and I probably would.

I'm not interested in paying for 2+2 First, it's pointless.

Even to avoid 3+2?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I have said I would like to see FC removed although i doubt that is feasible. Therefore i would like to see it upgraded to offer a true premier service on intercity lines. I would increase the cost, reduce the space provided , remove advances and railcard discounts ( unless late space is available) and make it truly exclusive and most importantly expensive! I would also like to "level up" standards in scum class so that all can have a better chance of a seat and a better chance of some comfort and service.

FC on mancheater-London is in the order of £500 return. That's off peak too. There's rarely anyone in the 4 carriages, yet on services like the 1920, people with £320 returns in standard are left without a seat.

I'd like to see two carriages flipped from FC to Anytime tickets only

 

[DarloRich]

Even to avoid 3+2?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



FC on mancheater-London is in the order of £500 return. That's off peak too. There's rarely anyone in the 4 carriages, yet on services like the 1920, people with £320 returns in standard are left without a seat.

I'd like to see two carriages flipped from FC to Anytime tickets only.

But that is partly my point - for £500 you should be getting a premium service not a table lamp, free wifi and a snack!

 

[miami]

But that is partly my point - for £500 you should be getting a premium service not a table lamp, free wifi and a snack!

If they improved the service would more people pay £500? Probably not.
If the reduced the price to £400 would more people pay? Probably not. People who pay an extra £300 for a bigger seat for 4 hours are the same people who would pay an extra £400.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I would scrap first class and instead make one coach in every train "rail staff only" where all you have to do is wave your priv card and you'll be allowed entrance into a wonderful relaxed environment with comfy seats, free food and drink and a complete absence of the general public.

 

[pne]

I would scrap first class and instead make one coach in every train "rail staff only" where all you have to do is wave your priv card and you'll be allowed entrance into a wonderful relaxed environment with comfy seats, free food and drink and a complete absence of the general public.

No doubt this would become the coach where the guard regularly goes to "hide", as some people claim

 

[anti-pacer]

But that is partly my point - for £500 you should be getting a premium service not a table lamp, free wifi and a snack!

Partly agree, but it shouldn't cost anywhere near £500 to travel on a train for 2 hours each way. That is daylight robbery!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And people wonder why I think travelling first class is snobby! The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

As far as we are concerned, if you are prepared to pay the travel costs to travel first class (with or without railcard discounts) and on a service that a TOC operates with a seat reservation facility, especially where the previous franchise holder offered such, then I do not see the point that you are trying to make.

Incidentally, I have flown business class on many occasions in my working life and was pleased to see such a facility was available.

 

[miami]

As far as we are concerned, if you are prepared to pay the travel costs to travel first class (with or without railcard discounts) and on a service that a TOC operates with a seat reservation facility, especially where the previous franchise holder offered such, then I do not see the point that you are trying to make.

Incidentally, I have flown business class on many occasions in my working life and was pleased to see such a facility was available.

My last business class flight cost £50 an hour, booked 3 days in advance. VTWC have tickets for only twice that, however first class on VTWC is more comparable to premium economy than business.

(I find Qatar business class better than BA first, not sure what your thoughts are on the matter as I'm sure you've experienced many trips at the front of the plane), I certainly wouldn't pay for First over Business, but it's nice when travelling alone and I get an upgrade or use miles to upgrade (my last first class flight was Singapore to Sydney, and only because business was full when I booked. For a family of 4 it was far worse than BA business).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even to avoid 3+2?

Yes, as I can always choose the 2 side. What's worth paying for when travelling alone is the 1 side in First (and indeed I might well not upgrade if the 1 side were full).

FC on mancheater-London is in the order of £500 return. That's off peak too. There's rarely anyone in the 4 carriages, yet on services like the 1920, people with £320 returns in standard are left without a seat.

The solution to this is to buy an Off Peak ticket (SVH online if necessary) and excess it if you wish to travel in the peak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they improved the service would more people pay £500? Probably not.
If the reduced the price to £400 would more people pay? Probably not. People who pay an extra £300 for a bigger seat for 4 hours are the same people who would pay an extra £400.

If they removed the food etc (though paid-for at seat service would be nice as on DB) and reduced the fare to 1.6 times Standard for all ticket types, I'd travel First by default.

Walk-up, it's presently too expensive off-peak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My last business class flight cost £50 an hour, booked 3 days in advance. VTWC have tickets for only twice that, however first class on VTWC is more comparable to premium economy than business.

BA don't do domestic business class, but if they did it'd be like European business class, which is the same seats at a slightly greater spacing with slightly better food and nobody in the middle. VT First Class is vastly superior.

 

[DarloRich]

As far as we are concerned, if you are prepared to pay the travel costs to travel first class (with or without railcard discounts) and on a service that a TOC operates with a seat reservation facility, especially where the previous franchise holder offered such, then I do not see the point that you are trying to make.

Incidentally, I have flown business class on many occasions in my working life and was pleased to see such a facility was available.

Paul - my point is that because you have the money to pay for first class you believe yourself superior to the great unwashed you were forced to travel with. I think that approach stinks. You are no better than any other person, regardless of your wealth.

EDIT - I may be being harsh on Paul so apologise if i am. His intention and behaviour may be different to my interpretation. Blame grumpyness today.

 

[jaigee]

I would scrap first class and instead make one coach in every train "rail staff only" where all you have to do is wave your priv card and you'll be allowed entrance into a wonderful relaxed environment with comfy seats, free food and drink and a complete absence of the general public.

In my experience, I assumed that was what the First Class on London Midland always was?