What is first class for?

[Bletchleyite]

Paul - my point is that because you have the money to pay for first class you believe yourself superior to the great unwashed you were forced to travel with. I think that approach stinks. You are no better than any other person, regardless of your wealth.

I travel First for greater seating comfort, not to avoid anyone in particular. You tend to find First these days off-peak is populated with families and the likes who have got a good Advance deal, in any case - the mix of people is similar to Standard.

Do you also object to the existence of different types of car?

 

[DarloRich]

I travel First for greater seating comfort, not to avoid anyone in particular. You tend to find First these days off-peak is populated with families and the likes who have got a good Advance deal, in any case - the mix of people is similar to Standard.

Do you also object to the existence of different types of car?

I object to people thinking that because they can afford a better car than someone else they are therefore better overall!

In my professional life I have dealt with people from the homeless via criminals and directors to multimillionaires with wealth beyond both our dreams. I treat them all the same with dignity and respect. I don't feel myself better because I have better/more material possessions or inferior because I don't have as much money in the bank.

 

[Blamethrower]

I object to people thinking that because they can afford a better car than someone else they are therefore better overall!

In my professional life I have dealt with people from the homeless via criminals and directors to multimillionaires with wealth beyond both our dreams. I treat them all the same with dignity and respect. I don't feel myself better because I have better/more material possessions or inferior because I don't have as much money in the bank.

Yes but that's you and the sensible.

I find that in this country, it is class war. Plain and simple. I don't buy into it, neither do you (going by your post) but it really does exist.

Jealousy of people with money, hatred of those without. Most of the time, it's not even related to money but behaviour and taste.

Nothing will ever be solved in this country until someone addresses the class war that is unique to our country.

We're all just a big pile of c()nt$

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul - my point is that because you have the money to pay for first class you believe yourself superior to the great unwashed you were forced to travel with. I think that approach stinks. You are no better than any other person, regardless of your wealth.

EDIT - I may be being harsh on Paul so apologise if i am. His intention and behaviour may be different to my interpretation. Blame grumpyness today.

It is fortunate that we know each other so well on this website........Remember that Patricia will be 75 this year and has a Baker's cyst behind her right knee and arthritis in both ankles and is just about able to drive and now walks with the aid of a walking stick and I at 71 suffered a stroke in 2012 and three mini-strokes since then and no longer drive.

How to address your posting? Has the post-1960's Labour Party view that we shall all enter the comprehensive school system and emerge from this as true socialists espousing the ethos of "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno" mantra that still has still some adherents in 2016, such as Jeremy Corbyn. Shall we all forsake the hedonistic pleasures of Harrods, John Lewis, Waitrose, Fortnum and Mason for the Co-op shop and its dividend?

The spirit of Oliver Cromwell may still live in the aspirations of some even today, but so does the view of those who welcomed the 1660 restoration of the Monarchy that put an end to such soul-less Puritanical life without pleasures.

 

[Senex]

Nothing will ever be solved in this country until someone addresses the class war that is unique to our country.

Why is its continuation so much a feature of this country and not anything like so apparent elsewhere?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I object to people thinking that because they can afford a better car than someone else they are therefore better overall!

I don't think I'm better because I sometimes travel First Class. Indeed, I'd much rather the TOCs stopped the ever decreasing size of Standard seats and their legroom such that I didn't need to!

In my professional life I have dealt with people from the homeless via criminals and directors to multimillionaires with wealth beyond both our dreams. I treat them all the same with dignity and respect. I don't feel myself better because I have better/more material possessions or inferior because I don't have as much money in the bank.

This is absolutely the right way to see things.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why is its continuation so much a feature of this country and not anything like so apparent elsewhere?

Why does that sketch that featured John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett suddenly spring to mind?

 

[Blamethrower]

Why is its continuation so much a feature of this country and not anything like so apparent elsewhere?

That's the big question isn't it?

I've lived in 3 different countries and it doesn't exist anywhere but here. Sure there are 'have's' and 'have nots' but there is just so much less contempt for each other.

In other countries, success is celebrated, here it is sneered at, "it's alright for some" for example.

I think that the removal of the word "class" from all trains, coaches, planes, boats, etc will benefit us as a nation, starting with the trains.

Lets Have Premium, Premium economy and economy. Although I do like the idea someone mentioned of a pacer bolted on the back for the cheapest tickets

 

[anti-pacer]

That's the big question isn't it?

I've lived in 3 different countries and it doesn't exist anywhere but here. Sure there are 'have's' and 'have nots' but there is just so much less contempt for each other.

In other countries, success is celebrated, here it is sneered at, "it's alright for some" for example.

I think that the removal of the word "class" from all trains, coaches, planes, boats, etc will benefit us as a nation, starting with the trains.

Lets Have Premium, Premium economy and economy. Although I do like the idea someone mentioned of a pacer bolted on the back for the cheapest tickets

That was my suggestion. Can you imagine the trolley service? You'd wear your tea and coffee rather than being able to drink it.

 

[Esmenfif]

Euphemisms do not solve such problems, they merely cloak them. The change from second class to 'standard' was bad enough.

 

[Tio Terry]

First Class exists for ex BR staff holding All Stations and by Ships Passes!

Well, not really but it does come in handy some times. My local services have no First Class so it doesn't apply to me getting to London but for longer, private, journeys I use it.

Back in BR days there were some rather silly restrictions applied to who could use what kind of pass when in which class. I remember being allowed to travel on the 17:00 Liverpool St - Norwich in First with my pass, my wife and two children who were using First cards where you filled in the date couldn't because it was restricted. This resulted in me being in First with my dog and the wife and children being in Standard. That went down well!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm with Warren Buffett about class war:

There's class war all right. But it's my class, the rich class, that's making war. And we're winning.

I've no problem with people being filthy rich: if they work for it. It's fat cat rail directors like David Brown, and his £2.2m bonus, that get my goat. And that's because they don't work for it and they don't deserve it.

As for first class, it's not the preserve of the hyper-rich on the trains. It's for people with a comfortable amount of money, but that counts for standard class too.

 

[Sprinter153]

I think things should be listed as four different classes:

Economy: the current standard class.

Premium Economy: any form of accommodation which is distinct from the standard class on the same train. No minimum requirements apart from that it's in a separate area. London Midland's current first class would count as premium economy.

Business: at a minimum, fixed (not fold down) tables at every seat, power sockets at the majority of seats, wifi, plus complementary drinks and snacks on any journey longer than 20 minutes. (Can charge extra for food.) Chiltern's business class would be this.

First: at a minimum, full complementary at-seat food service with proper crockery on any journey longer than 30 minutes (plus everything business class offers). Virgin West Coast's weekday first class would be this.

Some people can't cope with a two-class system. Four would finish them off.

One thing that hacks me off as someone who enforces FC is that the default response to "That ticket is invalid in here" is a faux surprised gasp and "Really? I'll just move then!"

I dislike this situation. I endeavour to charge them for whatever time they've spent in FC accommodation, but usually it's fruitless. UFNs go unpaid, people refuse to give details, and getting BTP out is difficult because we're always told to never cause more than two minutes' delay over a revenue issue.

So I'm sorry, regular First Class passengers. I wish I could do more to keep you in the environment you've paid for!

 

[JohnB57]

I've no problem with people being filthy rich: if they work for it. It's fat cat rail directors like David Brown, and his £2.2m bonus, that get my goat. And that's because they don't work for it and they don't deserve it.

The funny thing is, I'm much further left than I have ever been but I don't let this kind of thing mess with my head any more. There are so many far bigger injustices in the world that the odd example of over reward in a fairly wealthy country like ours pales into insignificance. Comfort yourself with the thought that when they spend their easy-gotten gains, other people benefit from the taxes they pay and the employment their purchases provide.

The other thing I find fun on here is to read certain posts in an appropriate voice. One of my favourites - no name, no pack drill - used to be Noel Coward but he's morphed into Brian Sewell. Try it - you'll like it!

 

[HowardGWR]

I said First was a quarter full.

You did indeed. I overlooked that, sorry. As the unwilling OP (see the first posts as to how this thread was created), I comment on another contribution that referred to 'the hoi polloi'. This expression contains a tautology. 'hoi' is Ancient Greek for 'the', the indefinite article.

Edit, see previous post, it should work as BS.

 

[Master29]

The funny thing is, I'm much further left than I have ever been but I don't let this kind of thing mess with my head any more. There are so many far bigger injustices in the world that the odd example of over reward in a fairly wealthy country like ours pales into insignificance. Comfort yourself with the thought that when they spend their easy-gotten gains, other people benefit from the taxes they pay and the employment their purchases provide.

The other thing I find fun on here is to read certain posts in an appropriate voice. One of my favourites - no name, no pack drill - used to be Noel Coward but he's morphed into Brian Sewell. Try it - you'll like it!

If they pay their taxes. Britain has been cursed with appalling snobbery for years now. It`s been worse since the war years. There are as you rightly say far more serious injustices out there though.

 

[miami]

Euphemisms do not solve such problems, they merely cloak them. The change from second class to 'standard' was bad enough.

However the change from "standard" to "standing" was far worse

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't think I'm better because I sometimes travel First Class. Indeed, I'd much rather the TOCs stopped the ever decreasing size of Standard seats and their legroom such that I didn't need to!



This is absolutely the right way to see things.

"Class" in the wider sense has nothing to do with status/wealth but almost everything to do with behaviour and attitude.

 

[JohnB57]

If they pay their taxes. Britain has been cursed with appalling snobbery for years now. It`s been worse since the war years. There are as you rightly say far more serious injustices out there though.

I meant more the taxes they pay on their purchases - VAT in the main. Like you, I'm a little scepti-cynical about the amount they might be paying on the income itself.

 

[fowler9]

The 185's running backwards and forwards across the Pennines with almost a third of the usable seating space carrying fresh air for much of the day made a mockery of the flexibility that multiple units are meant to provide.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 185's running backwards and forwards across the Pennines with almost a third of the usable seating space carrying fresh air for much of the day made a mockery of the flexibility that multiple units are meant to provide.

In a Class 185 3-car unit what is the actual percentage of the first class seats of the total unit seating capacity?

 

[fowler9]

In a Class 185 3-car unit what is the actual percentage of the first class seats of the total unit seating capacity?

It is the seating density and not capacity which is my issue and it is normally empty in first. The disabled area is very large for how often it gets used to. When you allow for the fact that Desiros toilets spend a large amount of their lives locked out of use there is a hell of a lot of wasted space.

 

[47271]

In a Class 185 3-car unit what is the actual percentage of the first class seats of the total unit seating capacity?

15 First 154 Standard so about 9%

But First occupies one half of one coach of a three coach train, so 17% is sacrificed to First Class, then there's lavs etc...

 

[anti-pacer]

It is the seating density and not capacity which is my issue and it is normally empty in first. The disabled area is very large for how often it gets used to. When you allow for the fact that Desiros toilets spend a large amount of their lives locked out of use there is a hell of a lot of wasted space.

I must be unique in seeing TPE FC busy. Every time I see a 185 in Leeds I see FC busy.

 

[fowler9]

I must be unique in seeing TPE FC busy. Every time I see a 185 in Leeds I see FC busy.

Must be a Liverpool thing. I'd say we can't afford it but the last time I went to Leeds I used first class because it was dead cheap (Cheaper than standard), probably because no one else was in it and they thought they may as well get some ware out of the cloth on the seats. Anyway this is all anecdotal and proves nothing. If I'm bored I'll use my pass to hop up and down on London Midland between Parkway and Lime Street and first class is always empty, someone will be along soon to tell me they see it full in Stafford all the time.

 

[Flying Snail]

It is the seating density and not capacity which is my issue and it is normally empty in first. The disabled area is very large for how often it gets used to. When you allow for the fact that Desiros toilets spend a large amount of their lives locked out of use there is a hell of a lot of wasted space.

These issues are more down to the bad layout of the stock than the presence of 1st class.

How much seating capacity is wasted on TP stock courtesy of it being suburban 1/3 2/3 layout in the first place? Then there is the small matter of the stock being inadequate 3 car units from the day they were introduced, replacing higher capacity 3 car 158s.

If you really want to play the space v use game then we should rip out all the disabled toilets and fill the empty spaces reserved for wheelchairs with seats, the occupation rate for these is far lower than even a 1st class seat.

 

[All Line Rover]

I've long been of the opinion that first class should be removed on all trains except long distance intercity services.

That'll go down particularly well with the St Albans to Farrington / City Thameslink / Blackfriars bunch!

I will simply say I don't like it and want to see it removed or reduced to one carriage of very highly priced luxury travel on intercity routes in order to create more space for the rest of us to actually get a seat.

Why make it the preserve of the rich? First class season tickets are, CrossCountry and GWR excepted, typically around 60% more expensive than standard class season tickets. Not affordable for those struggling to pay for standard class season tickets (who, even at current prices, are generally being subsidised by other taxpayers), but hardly affordable only by millionaires.

I also wonder if quiet coach seats should be offered to those with children's tickets (stand back await explosion).

At the very least, they should ban under 5's, who don't need to pay for a ticket.

I do take the point but I don't think sale / travel should be refused. After all it is, despite what many seem to think, a quiet coach rather than a silent coach. I will withhold the explosion as it will let out all of my bile produced by the thought of snobby first class travel.

Quietness is the absence of unnecessary noise. It is not a relative concept. Train operators don't use the phrase "silent coach" because a low level of noise is inevitable (announcements, for example), but this doesn't make it socially acceptable to talk constantly.

FC on mancheater-London is in the order of £500 return. That's off peak too. There's rarely anyone in the 4 carriages, yet on services like the 1920, people with £320 returns in standard are left without a seat.

I'd like to see two carriages flipped from FC to Anytime tickets only

I'd like to see a single weekday train on the Manchester to London route that is busy in standard class but empty in first class. I'm yet to come across one.

How many people on the 1920 from Euston travel on a Standard Anytime ticket? Why purchase a peak ticket to travel on an off-peak train? If one intended to travel on the 1820 or 1840 but was delayed, one can always upgrade to first class for just £50 (London to Macclesfield: SOR £325, FOR £425). One also has the option of purchasing an off-peak ticket and sending the Anytime ticket for a refund (minus £10), if one took the sensible approach of purchasing two Anytime Single tickets instead of one, identically priced, Anytime Return ticket.

There are already two standard class carriages on 11 car Pendolinos for unreserved standard class ticket holders: F and U (150 seats). More than the total first class capacity, on 11 car Pendolinos, of 145 seats! I highly doubt that converting Coaches G and H from 90 first class seats to 150 standard class seats reserved exclusively for Standard Anytime ticket holders would, on a train such as the 1920 from Euston, result in greater capacity utilisation of these carriages or, for that matter, greater profits for the TOC. The 1920 is surprisingly busy in first class and, with the cheapest walk-up first class return fare to Manchester being £475, compared to a walk-up standard class return fare of £80, it must be very profitable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Class" in the wider sense has nothing to do with status/wealth but almost everything to do with behaviour and attitude.

Precisely. The perception that making first class supremely expensive would result in it being more "exclusive" is not necessarily accurate.

 

[anti-pacer]

£475 for the cheapest walk-on First Class fare from London to Manchester is shockingly expensive.

You can have all-inclusive holidays abroad for that.

 

[All Line Rover]

£475 for the cheapest walk-on First Class fare from London to Manchester is shockingly expensive.

You can have all-inclusive holidays abroad for that.

True, but as is also the case with the £330 Standard Anytime Return ticket, it is targeted at businesses, not individuals.

The standard class season ticket is regulated and, at £1360 a month, equates to a more palatable £70 a day.

The first class season ticket, although not regulated, costs £2250 a month, which equates to £112.50 a day.

These are hardly small figures, but they are not unreasonable. Is there a cheaper and more convenient way to commute between Manchester and London for a month, arriving before 9am and departing around 6pm? I doubt it. To complain about this regulated fare (£1360) is like complaining that one wants to travel by private jet, but the price is "too high"!

That being said, equivalent travel in a number of continental European countries is substantially cheaper, which may be a result of the UK having a combination of an overly bureaucratic organisational structure and a reluctance to strongly push rail travel above other modes of transportation. Both are legitimate sources of complaint.

 

[DarloRich]

Quietness is the absence of unnecessary noise. It is not a relative concept. Train operators don't use the phrase "silent coach" because a low level of noise is inevitable (announcements, for example), but this doesn't make it socially acceptable to talk constantly.

Nor should someone be expected, like many of you seem to think, to put on some kind of mummery show in order to travel in a certain carriage. If I want to talk in a quiet carriage I will do so when I want albeit in consideration of the quiet zone in which I am sitting.

It is fortunate that we know each other so well on this website........Remember that Patricia will be 75 this year and has a Baker's cyst behind her right knee and arthritis in both ankles and is just about able to drive and now walks with the aid of a walking stick and I at 71 suffered a stroke in 2012 and three mini-strokes since then and no longer drive.

How to address your posting? Has the post-1960's Labour Party view that we shall all enter the comprehensive school system and emerge from this as true socialists espousing the ethos of "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno" mantra that still has still some adherents in 2016, such as Jeremy Corbyn. Shall we all forsake the hedonistic pleasures of Harrods, John Lewis, Waitrose, Fortnum and Mason for the Co-op shop and its dividend?

The spirit of Oliver Cromwell may still live in the aspirations of some even today, but so does the view of those who welcomed the 1660 restoration of the Monarchy that put an end to such soul-less Puritanical life without pleasures.

I am not a communist!!!! If anything I am a fairist. BTW Paul my education and background might surprise you..........

I find trains to be a leveler in that you can travel with people from different social orders ( if you will) and whilst travelling by train people seem to be much freer in thier desire to chat. It can be very interesting - use it as an opportunity to observe and understand your enemy