What is the future for the class 90?

[jspillman]

I was reading a article in the paper saying that GA are getting rid of there class 90s true?
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I really would like to know what will happen when they come out of service

 

[TheEdge]

I've not heard anything. Although they probably will go but not in the near future.

 

[jspillman]

good I like the class 90

 

[Suraggu]

Shouldn't this be more of what will happen to the Class 91's once IEP replaces them.

The Midland Mainline could go down the high speed EMU route which was preferred by the EMT MD from an Interview.

 

[jspillman]

Yes that as well

 

[Failed Unit]

Shouldn't this be more of what will happen to the Class 91's once IEP replaces them.

The Midland Mainline could go down the high speed EMU route which was preferred by the EMT MD from an Interview.

Won't EMT be gone by the time the MML is wired, a new franchise may have different ideas.

I don't think the 91s will be short of homes. Open Access I think will snap them up. They may things like haul them away from the wires? But lets say Hull - Selby - Doncaster gets wired - Hull trains may want them. Likewise (poacher rail may decide to start a London - Leeds / Edinburgh service to compete with east coast). Depends on what the regulators view is of such a service by 2020.

 

[90019]

good I like the class 90

You're not the only one.

 

[jspillman]

great !
I see the epic legendary class 90 (GA) every weekend
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What's your favourite class 90?

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely one class 90 is much the same as any other?

 

[Manchester77]

Surely one class 90 is much the same as any other?

Indeed, its not like theres any particular member of the class which is unique (there's no 87101 and even that wasn't noticeably different)

 

[jspillman]

No two trains are the same

 

[90019]

Surely one class 90 is much the same as any other?

Doesn't mean you can't have a favorite, though.

I think mine is somewhat obvious.

 

[Manchester77]

No two trains are the same

There will be unique members of certain classes, like 150001 and 150002 but most fleets will be pretty much identical now. 387101 and 387110 will be the same and being on each member will make probably give the same experience. The only way 387s will gain unique members if when they start falling apart!

 

[Suraggu]

Won't EMT be gone by the time the MML is wired, a new franchise may have different ideas.

I don't think the 91s will be short of homes. Open Access I think will snap them up. They may things like haul them away from the wires? But lets say Hull - Selby - Doncaster gets wired - Hull trains may want them. Likewise (poacher rail may decide to start a London - Leeds / Edinburgh service to compete with east coast). Depends on what the regulators view is of such a service by 2020.

This is very true, but we must look at current train times and knowing the Class 91's are extremely high geared, they are not suitable for replacing the Class 90's with AGA. I wouldn't be surprised if the Meridian fleet has the advantage on acceleration. I don't deny they would be excellent in terms of luggage space, comfort and facilities onboard but I feel the 91's gearing will let them down. And in this day in age I cannot see the train planners recasting the entire timetable for slower acceleration services when they try to squeeze blood from a stone in regards to train paths.

Greater Anglia post 2020 has the possibility for High Speed Intercity style EMU's for London -Norwich. Its been said before and never caused much of a stink when it was suggested. Personally I believe this is a good thing, a 444 style unit with 110mph max speed for a 2 hour journey based around 5 car sets, off peak non busy services single set & doubled for morning/evening peaks.

Hull Trains have said they will order brand new 125mph EMU's. Grand Central have committed to a Class 180 fleet with their extended operating licence once FGW release Class 180's when IEP is fully in service.

 

[higthomas]

This is very true, but we must look at current train times and knowing the Class 91's are extremely high geared, they are not suitable for replacing the Class 90's with AGA. I wouldn't be surprised if the Meridian fleet has the advantage on acceleration. I don't deny they would be excellent in terms of luggage space, comfort and facilities onboard but I feel the 91's gearing will let them down. And in this day in age I cannot see the train planners recasting the entire timetable for slower acceleration services when they try to squeeze blood from a stone in regards to train paths.

Greater Anglia post 2020 has the possibility for High Speed Intercity style EMU's for London -Norwich. Its been said before and never caused much of a stink when it was suggested. Personally I believe this is a good thing, a 444 style unit with 110mph max speed for a 2 hour journey based around 5 car sets, off peak non busy services single set & doubled for morning/evening peaks.

Hull Trains have said they will order brand new 125mph EMU's. Grand Central have committed to a Class 180 fleet with their extended operating licence once FGW release Class 180's when IEP is fully in service.

Two things;
First I agree that a 'class 344' would be great, although I think it might be better if the were almost always coupled, although admittedly I've only used the line during the summer, it is always reasonably busy.

Secondly, why can one not re-gear a train to alter its acceleration profile, and also why don't trains have a gearbox with which one can change gear like that of cars?

 

[bigdelboy]

Indeed, its not like theres any particular member of the class which is unique (there's no 87101 and even that wasn't noticeably different)

• I understand (firewrecked) 90050 was the last locomotive built at crewe
• In http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1910018&postcount=18 individual 90's were referred to as hard to get going
• In http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1910935&postcount=32 refer to individuals have bad build quality

I personally have more respect for the 86/2 ... probably as the first a/c's to be able to consistently and regularly hold a ton with load. And perhaps because my first trip behind an '87 was nothing special. And perhaps because the '86 is still ploughing away up and down with freightliners.

IMHO the 90's are almost overpowered for a bo-bo. It might be with more electrification more work could be found for them ... but by that time their reliability might wain. Conversion to a dual mode might be useful, even if resulting in a loss of power ... but a new build might be preferable anyway. Running in pairs is always useful in case one breaks down; but that seems overkill for their power rating.

 

[jspillman]

My favourite class 90's are 90004,90007

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

why don't trains have a gearbox with which one can change gear like that of cars?

Somebody much more technically minded will no doubt answer this properly, but the simple answer is that an electric motor (eg in a train) works in a very different way to the piston engine in a car; the power output of a train engine is also so much more than a car engine that having some form of gear change mechanism would create a massive weak link in the transmission (imagine the clutch!). In a different vein, piston engines in aeroplanes and boats don't have the ability to change gear either, but that is because they are pulling/pushing against a fluid rather than a solid so it doesn't matter a great deal. As it happens, most aircraft propellers these days are variable pitch which allows the pilot to get the best from the engine at different airspeeds - in effect, changing gear - without varying the engine speed.

 

[scottishchris]

I'll give my answer from a non-expert viewpoint and wait to get shot down in flames.

A gearbox exists in a car to make the best use of the available torque (twisting force that gives accelleration). With an internal combustion engine, maximum torque is only available in a very narrow part of the rev range so a gearbox is needed to allow a decent top speed along with acceptable acceleration at the bottom end.

An electric motor generates its maximum torque across its whole rev range so as long as it can be geared to give decent acceleration and a high enough top speed, only 1 gear is necessary. This applies to diesel-electric transmission where the engine acts as a generator to provide electricity for the traction motors.

With diesel-hydraulic transmission as I understand it, the diesel engine pumps hydraulic fluid between the engine and driven wheels allowing a degree of 'slip', similar to the way an automatic car gearbox's torque converter works. This allows the engine to operate close to its torque peak, almost in the same way you could pull away in a car with a manual gearbox in 5th by slipping the clutch pretty horrendously. The only difference is that the train's transmission is designed to be slipped in such a way whereas you'd destroy a clutch if you treated it like that.

As I say, a layman's explanation which I hope is correct but I'm always open to be corrected!

 

[Failed Unit]

Somebody much more technically minded will no doubt answer this properly, but the simple answer is that an electric motor (eg in a train) works in a very different way to the piston engine in a car; the power output of a train engine is also so much more than a car engine that having some form of gear change mechanism would create a massive weak link in the transmission (imagine the clutch!). In a different vein, piston engines in aeroplanes and boats don't have the ability to change gear either, but that is because they are pulling/pushing against a fluid rather than a solid so it doesn't matter a great deal. As it happens, most aircraft propellers these days are variable pitch which allows the pilot to get the best from the engine at different airspeeds - in effect, changing gear - without varying the engine speed.

I may also be missing something, but trains have had "re-gearing in the past".

150002 became 154002 (with up gearing to 90mph)
Didn't some of the 90's get down geared to 75mph for better traction effort on larger trains (someone will need to correct me here as I could be wrong)
I am sure some of the 86s were "re-geared" for freight working.

 

[455driver]

I may also be missing something, but trains have had "re-gearing in the past".

150002 became 154002 (with up gearing to 90mph) correct
Didn't some of the 90's get down geared to 75mph for better traction effort on larger trains (someone will need to correct me here as I could be wrong) not that I am aware of, only the top speed was limited, the gearing remained the same.
I am sure some of the 86s were "re-geared" for freight working.correct, but only 86501 was physically altered

Hope that helps.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

...but there's a major difference between a modification programme which permanently alters the gearing of a motor, and the ability to change gear repeatedly while the vehicle is in motion!

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think that the possibility of passenger activity with Class 90s has almost ended. In general, the use of loco hauled passenger trains has all but diminished from our railway.

I think that it will be much more likely for the AGA Class 90s to replace the Class 86s with Freightliner and the possibility of other new freight operators like Colas moving more towards Electric Locos to utilise the extra electrified lines on the MML and GWML.

I think that the FGW Night Riviera could also end up being Class 90 hauled if it is not replaced in the future.

As with most things on our railway today, a lot of Units and Locos could go different ways. At this stage it is almost certain that the extensive electrification will trigger TOCs & FOCs to re-think their Rolling Stock plans. Nothing will be certain until a move is made.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[43167]

Alot of the 90's have had too short lives. Probably safe to say alot of those stored at Crewe Electric will never move again under their own power.

Unless the wires get extended to Devon & Cornwall, the Night-Riv will stay diesel hauled.

 

[SC318250]

Alot of the 90's have had too short lives. Probably safe to say alot of those stored at Crewe Electric will never move again under their own power.

Well never say never... 90037 is about to return to traffic, from being stored in 2006 I think it was

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would it be financially viable for them to be given a new traction package?

 

[jspillman]

Well never say never... 90037 is about to return to traffic, from being stored in 2006 I think it was

Yes it is its having a majour overhaul at crewe

 

[43167]

Well never say never... 90037 is about to return to traffic, from being stored in 2006 I think it was

Though I don't mind been corrected.
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I may also be missing something, but trains have had "re-gearing in the past".

150002 became 154002 (with up gearing to 90mph)
Didn't some of the 90's get down geared to 75mph for better traction effort on larger trains (someone will need to correct me here as I could be wrong)
I am sure some of the 86s were "re-geared" for freight working.

25 to 50 were limited & renumbered into 90/1's and had the ETH isolated for afew years. Then it was de-isolated and their max speed increased back to 110 and the EWS 90's started dropping on passenger services for GNER (to cover for 91's going through Donny Works) and for Virgin to suppliment their own fleet.

Freightliner followed with their 90's and they started supplying 2 at a time to Anglia. So 2001-04 was a good time to 'red pen' the EWS/FL 90's. Though it wasn't until fairly recently I bagged my last 2.

 

[bigdelboy]

Alot of the 90's have had too short lives. Probably safe to say alot of those stored at Crewe Electric will never move again under their own power.

Probably as one comes back badly broken or needed a major overhaul it may be easiest to canibalise whats just come and put one back together. It may even be easiest to start from an empty shell!

When class 88 arrives and becomes bedded in and if it proves successful that will probably serve as a benchmark if some form of refurbishment might be cost effective versus new build, or whether the answer is to see if EuroPhoenix would sort them out. http://www.europhoenix.eu/.

I personally suspect the demand here would be much greater for a last mile dual mode (e.g. class 88) which might have more utility.

For passenger Class 350/3 and 387 et al seems to be winning the competition for "secondary" passenger duties under the wires; with the economies of scale of these builds in progress there may be little profit in organising a 90+carriages+DVT solution which has been successful here and on the continent; (though I suspect many may feel we have the assets lying about and decaying).

 

[contrex]

Secondly, why can one not re-gear a train to alter its acceleration profile, and also why don't trains have a gearbox with which one can change gear like that of cars?

Quite a few SNCF (French) electric and diesel-electric classes have monomotor bogies with dual ratio gearing, PV (petite vitesse) (freight) and GV (grande vitesse) (passenger). The ratio can only be changed at a standstill! A variant of one such class was exported to Turkey where I believe maintenance issues with the gearbox led to locos being locked into one ratio or the other. I have a feeling that the French original versions did not have this problem, possibly due to better maintenance facilities.