• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What is the point of Old Oak Common?

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
1,610
Location
All around the network
As I understand it HS2 connecting to the Elizabeth line and the GWR network is a key reason for its existence. But it's 6 minutes out of Paddington, why can't connecting passengers travel 6 minutes further in and connect at Paddington? Stopping long distance trains so close to Paddington seems an absolute waste of time and same for long distance GWR services, even if two of them replace the Slough calls that currently are only served by the Didcot semi fasts. Opening a new station to turn it into the new Stratford just seems to slow more passengers down for marginally more convenience to some connecting passengers.

Is it stated in any document the business case for OOC? The only thing I can think of is that OOC would add capacity to a crowded Paddington that has in the peaks a shortage of platforms and very short turnarounds for some services.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
665
"Old Oak Common" is a misleading name (one thinks of an ancient tree in a sylvan idyll). I'd prefer "West London Mega-Hub". It'll offer connections everywhere. Heathrow to Manchester, Birmingham to Shenfield, Slough to Stoke-on-Trent, the list is endless. For many journeys it'll be much more convenient than Euston.
 

Somewhere

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2023
Messages
433
Location
UK
Euston is only served by two Underground lines. Euston Underground station could easily become overwhelmed.
Old Oak Common, with the Elizabeth Line, will connect at Farringdon with Thameslink, Stratford with all the stuff there. Far more connectivity
 

willgreen

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
619
Location
Leeds
Is it stated in any document the business case for OOC? The only thing I can think of is that OOC would add capacity to a crowded Paddington that has in the peaks a shortage of platforms and very short turnarounds for some services.
If HS2 was going to Paddington you might have a point. It isn’t, it’s going to Euston. There will be a better dispersal of passengers and the opportunity for improved access to e.g. Heathrow with OOC than airport it.
If your only gripe is over the GWR fasts then this debate has been done to death - for connectivity and timetabling simplicity it makes sense for the fasts to stop at OOC.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,727
Location
Somerset
As I understand it HS2 connecting to the Elizabath line and the GWR network is a key reason for its existence. But it's 6 minutes out of Paddington, why can't connecting passengers travel 6 minutes further in and connect at Paddington? Stopping long distance trains so close to Paddington seems an absolute waste of time and same for long distance GWR services, even if two of them replace the Slough calls that currently are only served by the Didcot semi fasts. Opening a new station to turn it into the new Stratford just seems to slow more passengers down for marginally more convenience to some connecting passengers.

Is it stated in any document the business case for OOC? The only thing I can think of is that OOC would add capacity to a crowded Paddington that has in the peaks a shortage of platforms and very short turnarounds for some services.
Its main connection reason is from / to HS2 which won’t go anywhere near Paddington in the same way that Crossrail doesn’t go anywhere near Euston.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,866
Location
Southport
more convenience to some connecting passengers.

Is it stated in any document the business case for OOC?
It has been decided that for connectivity, HS2 will stop at Old Oak Common to connect with the GWML, it having previously been decided that the GWML will connect with Heathrow Airport and the Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, so in addition to interchange between HS2 destinations and long distance GWR ones in the south west, there will also be direct access to Heathrow Airport, Greater Anglia services at Liverpool Street and Stratford, southeastern services at Abbey Wood, some may find it easier to connect between HS2 and Thameslink by changing at Old Oak Common and Farringdon rather than Euston and St Pancras.

The line would be even more useless if it assumed everyone using it wants to be dumped immediately at Euston with no other options, than you are suggesting it is to stop at Old Oak Common.
"Old Oak Common" is a misleading name (one thinks of an ancient tree in a sylvan idyll). I'd prefer "West London Mega-Hub".
Is part of the argument about the geographical naming, which represents the history of the area, particularly as a railway location but not much of a destination for visitors from outside London, rather than naming the station any variation of “West London Mega Hub” or even just “London West”. Surely it doesn’t make any difference when the reality of the station is as this major interchange, not as a station situated solely to observe an old tree.
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
3,885
Is part of the argument about the geographical naming, which represents the history of the area, particularly as a railway location but not much of a destination for visitors from outside London, rather than naming the station any variation of “West London Mega Hub” or even just “London West”. Surely it doesn’t make any difference when the reality of the station is as this major interchange, not as a station situated solely to observe an old tree.
I could see merit in Old Oak becoming "London West Cross" and also renaming Stratford to "London East Cross", following (e.g.) the Berlin example. Renaming Stratford might also help international tourists who are following the Shakespeare trail to avoid ending up in the wrong Stratford.

But I think the objections of the traditionalists would block any such move. It wouldn't be cost-free either.

As well as Elizabeth Line and GWML, I would hope the final layout of Old Oak will give good links to the Overground for connections via Clapham Junction to Southern and South Western services, as well as the London orbital routes.
 

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
665
Is part of the argument about the geographical naming, which represents the history of the area, particularly as a railway location but not much of a destination for visitors from outside London, rather than naming the station any variation of “West London Mega Hub” or even just “London West”. Surely it doesn’t make any difference when the reality of the station is as this major interchange, not as a station situated solely to observe an old tree.
Indeed. Let's be grateful it's not at North Pole Junction!
 

kentrailman

Member
Joined
5 Nov 2019
Messages
83
Location
Kent
As a very regular user of trains between Bristol and London who has already lost the "non stop" trains we briefly had before covid, I am fed up enough with nearly every train to Bristol stopping at Reading, Didcot , Swindon, Chippenham, Bath ..and to add Old Oak to that .. Let alone the issue of trains being filled with people getting off a few moments later, and even worse the prospect of the line being closed during construction... is really making the M4 look a much better option. HS2 might be making journeys to Birmingham marginally faster but at the expense of making GWR trains even slower.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,866
Location
Southport
I could see merit in Old Oak becoming "London West Cross" and also renaming Stratford to "London East Cross", following (e.g.) the Berlin example. Renaming Stratford might also help international tourists who are following the Shakespeare trail to avoid ending up in the wrong Stratford.

But I think the objections of the traditionalists would block any such move. It wouldn't be cost-free either.

As well as Elizabeth Line and GWML, I would hope the final layout of Old Oak will give good links to the Overground for connections via Clapham Junction to Southern and South Western services, as well as the London orbital routes.
Surely there are some unwanted connotations involved in providing stations at “East Berlin” and “West Berlin”… But these of course exist in the context of Berlin Hbf. Which station should become London Hbf under this system?

I would actually argue in favour of the traditional naming. Both Old Oak Common and Stratford are historically significant railway locations in their own right, as is Curzon Street. Even “Stratford for East London” or “Old Oak Common for West London” are questionable levels of patronising.

Why can we not provide some basic amount of wayfinding guidance for tourists that leaves station names alone? It’s already entirely possible that passengers for Windermere end up in Shakespeare territory after buying a ticket to “The Lakes”.
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
3,885
Surely there are some unwanted connotations involved in providing stations at “East Berlin” and “West Berlin”… But these of course exist in the context of Berlin Hbf. Which station should become London Hbf under this system?
Westkreuz, Ostkreuz (and Sudkreuz) are the main western, eastern and southern interchanges between Berlin's radial lines and the outer circle S-Bahn lines. I don't think they imply a need for a single central Hauptbahnhof.

But I accept that it's most unlikely London will follow the example.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
7,111
Westkreuz, Ostkreuz (and Sudkreuz) are the main western, eastern and southern interchanges between Berlin's radial lines and the outer circle S-Bahn lines. I don't think they imply a need for a single central Hauptbahnhof.

But I accept that it's most unlikely London will follow the example.
Just imagine a single London Hbf and how busy it would be...

(Not suggesting that such a thing should ever be considered, just a thought experiment....)
 

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
665
It’s already entirely possible that passengers for Windermere end up in Shakespeare territory after buying a ticket to “The Lakes”.
A booking-office colleague used to take great delight in directing American tourists to Stratford!
 

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
3,890
Location
Plymouth
As a very regular user of trains between Bristol and London who has already lost the "non stop" trains we briefly had before covid, I am fed up enough with nearly every train to Bristol stopping at Reading, Didcot , Swindon, Chippenham, Bath ..and to add Old Oak to that .. Let alone the issue of trains being filled with people getting off a few moments later, and even worse the prospect of the line being closed during construction... is really making the M4 look a much better option. HS2 might be making journeys to Birmingham marginally faster but at the expense of making GWR trains even slower.
Agree. Those Bristol trains certainly feel slow, and are no quicker than in BR days, despite the far quicker traction. Old oak common certainly does very little for GWR intercity. One can only hope a compromise is found that prevents trains from the likes of Bristol and Plymouth having to stop there for marginal benefit. I don't believe it is necessarily a done deal, so we can only hope. GwR is slow enough as it is in comparison with Avanti and Lner.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,179
Location
SE London
If HS2 was going to Paddington you might have a point. It isn’t, it’s going to Euston.

I assumed that was kinda the point of the OP's question. Why not build HS2 platforms at Paddington instead of a new station at OOC (may have required the HS2 tunnels to take a different route in that area)? That way you get all the same connectivity - in fact better connectivity because HS2 would additionally connect with the Bakerloo and District lines - but without requiring GWR long-distance trains to make an additional stop. In that form, it is a good question. My best guess for an answer would be that maybe it's cheaper to build OOC because the platforms can be above ground whereas an HS2 stop at Paddington would involve building 6 very long underground platforms: mega-expensive. Of course it could also be that at the planning stage, it just didn't occur to anyone to think of building a connection at Paddington?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,448
I assumed that was kinda the point of the OP's question. Why not build HS2 platforms at Paddington instead of a new station at OOC (may have required the HS2 tunnels to take a different route in that area)? That way you get all the same connectivity - in fact better connectivity because HS2 would additionally connect with the Bakerloo and District lines - but without requiring GWR long-distance trains to make an additional stop. In that form, it is a good question. My best guess for an answer would be that maybe it's cheaper to build OOC because the platforms can be above ground whereas an HS2 stop at Paddington would involve building 6 very long underground platforms: mega-expensive. Of course it could also be that at the planning stage, it just didn't occur to anyone to think of building a connection at Paddington?
No room either side at surface level for additional long platforms at Paddington, and no room underneath Paddington, especially as Crossrail got there first. It’s been suggested before, and once you look into all the local conflicts it just isn’t practical.
 

Recessio

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
667
My gripe with OOC is not that it exists, but that the London Overground lines won't have a direct interchange, they'll be two separate new stations in addition to OOC.

I'm sure they have their reasons (Hythe road in particular doesn't have a good option for being directly next to OOC), but it seems like a wasted opportunity for better connectivity to not have Old Oak Lane closer to OOC.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
My gripe with OOC is not that it exists, but that the London Overground lines won't have a direct interchange, they'll be two separate new stations in addition to OOC.

I'm sure they have their reasons (Hythe road in particular doesn't have a good option for being directly next to OOC), but it seems like a wasted opportunity for better connectivity to not have Old Oak Lane closer to OOC.
What is the current plan for pedestrian interchange between these stations?
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,179
Location
SE London
My gripe with OOC is not that it exists, but that the London Overground lines won't have a direct interchange, they'll be two separate new stations in addition to OOC.

Agreed. It's a shame that, amongst the vast cost of HS2, they couldn't find a bit of extra money to reroute the Overground (and also the Central line) so they could make a direct interchange. Both of those would be expensive in absolute terms but peanuts compared to the overall HS2 construction cost - and would have made a big difference to connectivity to HS2. But I guess those birds have flown now :(
 

Recessio

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
667
Agreed. It's a shame that, amongst the vast cost of HS2, they couldn't find a bit of extra money to reroute the Overground (and also the Central line) so they could make a direct interchange. Both of those would be expensive in absolute terms but peanuts compared to the overall HS2 construction cost - and would have made a big difference to connectivity to HS2. But I guess those birds have flown now :(
I didn't even think about the Central line, but also a good point. Problem is, an underground line is even more horrendous and expensive to re-route: I think they only bothered with Bank because it was having such a knock on effect to the network and is such a key station. In comparison, they haven't built a new Central line station underneath the Overground lines at Shoreditch/Spitalfields either, despite the connectivity it would bring. Presumably reoruting Central line to be under OOC is also judged "not worth it".
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,179
Location
SE London
I didn't even think about the Central line, but also a good point. Problem is, an underground line is even more horrendous and expensive to re-route: I think they only bothered with Bank because it was having such a knock on effect to the network and is such a key station. In comparison, they haven't built a new Central line station underneath the Overground lines at Shoreditch/Spitalfields either, despite the connectivity it would bring. Presumably reoruting Central line to be under OOC is also judged "not worth it".

Actually the Central Line is above ground in the vicinity of OOC and there's plenty of land available along most of the likely alternative route, since it's mostly park, so the cost of diverting it should be reasonable. It would probably mean you'd either lose or have to move East Action station though.
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,563
I would hope that they considered multiple options for getting into London, looking at both what connectivity each would provide and how destructive it would be.

Euston has overall pretty good connectivity with 5 underground lines (one of which is essentially two conjoined lines). OOC adds the lizzle which is also effectively two conjoined lines. That's an impressive amount of metro connectivity.
 

SynthD

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
1,167
Location
UK
The Elizabeth line is the only line big enough for the GWR mainline and HS2 scale of passengers. At one point it was said that Euston would need Crossrail 2 for its share of the passengers. Large amounts of passengers can’t be moved with Victorian era limitations.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,758
Location
London
I would hope that they considered multiple options for getting into London, looking at both what connectivity each would provide and how destructive it would be.

Euston has overall pretty good connectivity with 5 underground lines (one of which is essentially two conjoined lines). OOC adds the lizzle which is also effectively two conjoined lines. That's an impressive amount of metro connectivity.

Euston only has that many Underground lines if you include Euston Square station too - which is not the most convenient on-street interchange. And I understand the subsurface pedestrian link planned from Euston station(s) to Euston Square underground (including a new ticket line / entrance at the eastern end of the Euston Square platforms) has been scrapped to save money; without that, most people aren't going to see the Euston Square lines as an obvious interchange with Euston.

Going to all the trouble of building something like OOC but without ensuring good interconnections with the Overground lines there does seem silly.
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,563
Euston only has that many Underground lines if you include Euston Square station too
Which I do, and which I'm sure those designing HS2 did.

And I understand the subsurface pedestrian link planned from Euston station(s) to Euston Square underground (including a new ticket line / entrance at the eastern end of the Euston Square platforms) has been scrapped to save money; without that, most people aren't going to see the Euston Square lines as an obvious interchange with Euston.
If you are arguing that HS2 has been subject to crippling cutbacks that put the whole value of the line in question, I wouldn't disagree.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
Referring to earlier posts in this thread I should like to make some general points about the Old Oak Common (OOC) station as there seems to some misconception about the original justification for this station.

It was initially foreseen that Crossrail 2, with a large station serving Euston / St. Pancras / Kings Cross, would be open in time for the completion of HS2. It was clear that the passenger flows arising from up to seventeen 400m long HS2 trains arriving every hour at Euston would have overloaded the local distribution network as it now stands of Underground, buses and taxis — significant additional capacity was needed.

When it became clear that Crossrail 2 was not going to happen in the required timescale the station at Old Oak Common was proposed to remove some 30% of the passengers from HS2 before the trains reached Euston and distribute these passengers through central London using Crossrail.

In addition to the original idea of an HS2 to Crossrail link for London bound passengers, it transpired that this station would become an alternative to the originally promoted direct connection of HS2 to Heathrow airport by either a deviation of the route or by the construction of a dedicated spur. Passengers would be able to transfer to and from Crossrail from HS2 with frequent connections to the airport so there would be no time loss on the main route and there would be no need to run standard length HS2 trains to a variety of destinations from Birmingham northwards with a commercially unattractive frequency to each of them. The station at OOC would also enable a simple connection between the Thames Valley suburban stations out to about Reading and all those areas to be served by HS2.

Platforms would be necessary on both the Relief and Main lines at OOC to allow for the closure of a pair of them for maintenance with the result that this interchange also became of interest to HS2 in its quest for more passenger to fill the enormous capacity it was creating. It was promoted that journeys from and to the West Country, Bristol and South Wales to Manchester and Leeds would potentially be faster via OOC than the traditional routes by stopping all GW Main Line services at OOC. However because of the intensity of services on the Great Western double sided platforms would be needed and so what started out as a simple interchange became a monster.

All this may or may not have made sense — I personally feel that it was all a ploy to fill HS2 seats rather than concern for the greater good of passengers on the Great Western. The ORR has recently published ‘Origin and Destination’ data based on ticket sales and although one can see that there are flows from places like Exeter and Plymouth to Manchester and Leeds the numbers are dwarfed by the flows to London. These data were not in the public domain when the debate was at its height but they do now call into question the decision to spend huge amounts of money on building a large showpiece station to serve the size of the traffic flows.

And now of course the completion of HS2 past Birmingham has been pushed so far into the future that for all practical purposes it can be ignored and both the number of HS2 trains serving OOC and the time savings to Manchester, Leeds and the rest have been reduced significantly. Any original commercial reason that there may have been in stopping all the GW main line trains at OOC has now gone.

Like many other large projects undertaken by various governments it seems that there has been no clear, consistent reason for the construction of the station at OOC. The reasons change with the seasons and various levels of mission creep can be seen here. So basically what I am saying is that the HS2 to Crossrail/Elizabeth line interchange still makes sense — less so now that the HS2 route and numbers of trains have been cut back — but the HS2 to GW Main Line interchange for all GW trains now makes little or no sense at all. It always was the case of the tail wagging the dog.
 

jfowkes

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
895
For those asking about Euston vs Paddington, the HS2 railway, UK: route optioneering document details the station selection, on page 7, from 27 initial options, to 10, then to 4 and finally to 1 preferred (Euston) and two alternatives (Euston double-deck and "King's Cross Lands - cut and cover").
Paddington was ruled out into the second stage.

It's an interesting document that details a lot of the thought that went into route selection along all of Phase 1.
Screen capture of the relevant page:
 

Attachments

  • 1689283877777.png
    1689283877777.png
    186.5 KB · Views: 130

Top