Mgameing123
Member
If they wanted to they can extend the service down to Brighton and send it on the fast lines but from what I know the fast lines are full.
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What is the point of Old Oak Common?
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irish_rail
Established Member
While they are at it, why not quote Plymouth to London as Reading! Connects onto the Elizabeth Line, bus link to Heathrow and trains to Gatwick. That puts us comfortably under 3 hours now!
Peter Wilde
Member
If we are doing more appropriate alternative names for the station at OOC, how about “Failing Fantasy Moneypit Junction” ?
Alte
Alternative (fun?) names for OOC were aired some time ago ... just sayin'... can't remember when! A good time for some more, I think
I was thinking Sunak's Folly
JamesRowden
Established Member
Perhaps we can put all of these connectivity ideas together by:
- Building WCML platforms at Willesden Junction with all post HS2 WCML services calling.
- Build some West London Line platforms at Old Oak Common
- Have as frequent as possible metro service between Willesden Junction and Clapham Junction via Old Oak Common while leaving some paths for freight.
- Offer cheaper tickets without Underground validity for every cross London ticket for which this new metro service is a reasonable route.
Re your last point good luck with doing that while Oyster (and contactless based on it's fare structure) is the main ticketing medium in London.
JamesRowden
Established Member
I'm referring to journeys which start and end outside London. TfL already offer a discount for avoiding Zone 1.
Ah, ok, that makes more sense (albeit avoiding Z1 is emphatically not the same as not valid on the Underground).
AlbertBeale
Established Member
If the NLL/Duddon Overground routes have a station at Old Oak Common Lane, that might feasibly have a direct (shortish) link to OOC station. But the WLL, unless completely rerouted, can only manage Hythe Road - which is perhaps a bit too far to have a direct link (buildings, canal, rail sidings to get across) - so I guess that if there is a new station it won't be a very useful connection.
However, if it's accepted that all the Overground routes will continue going where they do now, and one of them won't/can't link well with OOC even with an extra station, there's still something that could be done for improved connectivity. Maybe make use of the Southern services coming up through/from Clapham Junction (to the extent that capacity allows)? Instead of - ideally as well as! - that (little more than nominal) service up to Watford etc, might there be a couple of trains an hour that follow the existing loop (connecting the WLL and NLL) round so as to reach the new OOC Lane Overground station? There might be room for a turnback siding somewhere around Acton Wells Junction. That would enable an OOC to [somewhere on the] Brighton Main Line service. If the Brighton Line is short of capacity for additional services, it might be an option for a couple of trains an hour currently going to Victoria to go to OOC instead - after all, there's a lot of churn on that line anyway: people are used to switching services at, eg, East Croydon to mix-and-match different London terminals and different south coast destinations; ditto at Clapham Junction. So having a couple of trains an hour terminating at OOC [OOC Lane in fact, if that's what it'll be called?] instead of at Victoria might work without causing major problems for existing users. Though given capacity needs on the Brighton Line, will it be the case that a new OOC Lane station could cope with up to 8-car trains? I presume other places en route - Shepherds Bush, for example - can cope with 8 carriages (even if they rarely see such trains); Olympia certainly can.
Mgameing123
Member
That sounds like an interresting proposal. Major loads of people might prefer OOC because of connectivity with the GWML, HS2 & Elizabeth Line. Plus some of these OOC diverted services can extend to Watford and give connections to the West Coast Mainline. Very good proposal!
Mgameing123
Member
That could actually work. Maybe even a cable car? I know its gadgetbahn technology but surely gadgetbahn in this case would work fine?
Topological
Member
Would definitely be good to have a Willesden Junction hub similar to OOC but on the WCML. Slightly different in that it would only help passengers from the southern end of the WCML on HS2, but those passengers may also find it useful to connect to go on to GWR destinations.
There must be some sensible way to get between the two.
There must be some sensible way to get between the two.
Is it too far for a corridor with travelators?
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I would say, yes. It's about half a mile as the crow flies, and there's enough stuff in between that you're never going to be able to do it in a straight line. Probably nearer 3/4 of a mile to get a workable above-ground route.
jfowkes
Member
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Some kind of high capacity people mover system like the Luton Dart is probably what's required if Willesden is to take a lot of onward travel. The Luton Airport DART (for example) can handle about 2500pphpd. Assuming OOC handles 6x 1100-seat trains per hour, that's 13,200 passenger movements per hour. So the DART could handle about 1/6th of that load. I'm sure there are higher capacity systems.
(Prays I've got the maths right)
(Prays I've got the maths right)
If it is 1/6th of the HS2 flow, that may not be that far adrift from what might be needed, given it's likely to be servicing a secondary destination. It's also worth noting that crush loading for a sub 10 minute trip is much more acceptable than 90% of seats being occupied for an 45+ minute trip, which puts it closer to 1/5th of the passengers.
For example between Clapham Junction and the WCML (without going into central London) there's a train service (IIRC it's only hourly), so 2,500 (which is about 3tph in terms of capacity) probably isn't that far off, even allowing for higher demand (HS2, GWML & Heathrow to the South and WCML to the north).
Even if it's found to be under capacity, that's something for (say) 20 years after opening. If it's an issue significantly sooner then the demand would likely to be there to cover the costs of increasing capacity.
Although some, if it was at crush loading would just walk the sub 1 mile distance.
Here is some blurb I found about Hythe Road/Old Oak Common Lane/Willesden Junction and various developments.
** WARNING ** Some of it is so dull you'll want to tear your own face off.
A lot of it is old.
I would gently suggest that "Victoria Road for Old Oak Common" would be a better name for "Old Oak Common Lane", particularly in view of the West London Orbital scheme.
** WARNING ** Some of it is so dull you'll want to tear your own face off.
A lot of it is old.
I would gently suggest that "Victoria Road for Old Oak Common" would be a better name for "Old Oak Common Lane", particularly in view of the West London Orbital scheme.
One thing which is often forgotten is that OOC is likely to see over 25,000 homes built, that's likely to be a population of around 65,000 extra people (similar to Loughborough in size, but not a lot smaller than Crewe 75,000 - however given the existing population it's likely that it would have a local population larger than Crewe).
Whilst that's small to have that level of connectivity, when compared to some South Western cities it's not too shabby, for example Truro is only about 23,000 people, and even Exeter only manages 126,000. Only a significant number of those 65,000 new people (as well as quite a few of those living nearby currently) would be within walking distance (say 1km) of the station. With nearly all of the new people being within a cycling distance of 5km and quite a lot of existing people also being within that distance.
The combined population of Brent, Ealing and Hammersmith and Fulham is around 830,000 people (with those extra houses likely to be around the 900,000 mark), that's already bigger than Devon (excluding Plymouth) which is 812,000 people. That's important as that's the three boroughs which the OOC development site straddles and so likely to feed into people wishing to travel by train. Potentially to places which have a lot of tourists, and so it may be beneficial to such places to have easier access to a market which had previously been harder to get to by rail.
Even at 500,000 people (to account for the fact that some would be determined to travel to the South West anyway) that would be like giving Plymouth a train service to a city like Sheffield which took 3 hours. That's likely to have a significant positive impact on the South West.
What that new population does mean is that usage will be spread across the various entrances, including if the NLL and WLL/Hythe happen, and users of the Central Line too. So this will take on more of a holistic Stratford function than a stark interchange one. And it certainly won't have a big Westfield - that being so close by (or one stop on the WLL!) - but the UK being the UK, I would still expect a ton of retail. Likely in the style of Broadgate Circus today, and those new developments there. Or St Pancras even, which is more in-station and less destination/embedded in the city.
Chris Butler
Member
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Of all the various ideas mentioned for connections to OOC, my understanding of the current 'real-world' situation is below. Any corrections ?
- Central Line - Even though there is room for a station only 200m-300m from OOC at a far lower cost than diverting the Central Line itself, there's no proposal at all to add Central Line infrastructure. Presumably the planned new Old Oak Lane direct from North Acton to OOC would bring frequent buses.
- Overground (Richmond) and Dudding Hill Line - Old Oak Common Lane station is assumed (but unfunded) in both the TfL Dudding Hill proposal and the Old Oak/Park Royal Development Corporation's plans. The station site sits on the junction between the new Old Oak Lane from North Acton to OOC and Old Oak Common Lane (although I struggle to fully convince myself that they can squeeze a station in there).
- Overground (Clapham Jnc) - Hythe Road is no longer in anyone's plans. Quite why, I don't know. It wasn't great (being 700m away), but it was something.
- Chiltern Line - passive provision to run Chiltern Services to OOC is included in the plans for OOC, specifically retention of space for the connection on the to be rebuilt bridge taking the GWML and (prior to severing) Chiltern connection over Old Oak Common Lane.
- WCML platforms at Willesden Jnc - No proposal at all. Slightly suprises me.
- People movers from Willesden Jnc - Not discussed or proposed, seemingly contrary to the Development Corp plan and superfluous if Old Oak Common Lane station is built.
- Buses - Old Oak Lane (mentioned above) will transform local connectivity westwards from OOC and integration with North Acton. Also, the rebuilding of the bridge mentioned above is specifically to allow double decker buses to run to OOC Station down Old Oak Common Lane which implies a far higher capacity/frequency North-South.
Here is an excerpt from my private scribbles showing how the Overground Station will fit on the West London Orbital and North London Lines.
This is based on stuff I've picked up over the past couple of years combined with informed guesswork.
Purple line is HS2. Platform footprints are circa 120m long but the platforms maybe comparatively narrow. Dudding Hill Line to Left, N London to Right. Entrances on Victoria Road and Old Oak Common Lane. Red line is a possible pedestrian connection to the OOC station box on the right. Ignore the pins.
Hythe Road has, I think, been reduced to 'Wouldn't It Be Nice?' status, but some of the images I've seen show what seems to me overkill as to size and utility. Maybe it'll reappear if the area is redeveloped for residential use, but don't hold your breath.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Would there be no way to fit in platforms immediately south of the junction, so that one station could serve both the LWO and NLL Overgrounds? I realise it would be tight, with a further junction so close - but like this you have twice the infrastructure, and the need for extra interconnection between the various parts of the OOC station(s) complex. There's also the problem that north of that junction, the NLL route has 4 tracks, complicating fitting in the platforms on the right lines...
If it did have to be two separate stations, I presume they'd be considered one station with one name?
There's no room between the two double junctions at Acton Wells which are only about 100m apart, with no signals in the gap so if (short) platforms existed a route would have to be set right through both junctions to approach it, needlessly blocking other movements that might take place in parallel. The bridge over the Central Line and Ruislip NR line forms about 50m of that distance and has a left-hand crossover on its deck. In short, it's the worst place to stop a passenger train in the vicinity! If you went further south still, overlap clear of the Acton Main Line Junction that would be a longer walk and be more difficult to construct an access route to, across the GWML The separate groups of platforms on the Dudding Hill and Willesden lines in the preferred site will be tied together into a single station undoubtedly, sharing street accesses, a ticket hall etc. Removing one of the 4 tracks on the NLL north of Acton Wells Jn might be possible to create more space for platform construction.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Thanks for the explanation. All in all not ideal - but better in terms of an as-seamless-as-possible integration with other OOC services than the WLL options!
Chris Butler
Member
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- 280
Your location and layout is exactly as I imagine it and totally consistent with the OPDC plan. Your red line is the route of the planned Old Oak Lane from North Action which crosses over Victoria Road and Old Oak Common Lane pretty much where you have it.
I'm assuming that it will be a full-spec road taking frequent busses and other vehicles to OOC station. The 'lane' is planned to run right down the side of OOC station, not terminate where you show it.
Fine as all of that is, I come to the same conclusion as you, namely a major interchange station would have narrow platforms, a 'single unit' length and a single entrance/exit right at the end of the platforms ... unless they extend the trackbeds/footprint westward, which takes it to a new level of cost. It seems close to infeasible for the likely traffic without a far bigger spend and footprint than implied currently.
As for Hythe Road, as I understood it (which may be wrong) the platform length was similarly constrained and so the Southern service to Milton Keynes and East Croydon could not stop there. Partly as a result it was planned (I think) as three platforms with a turnback platform for a 'shuttle' to Clapham Junction and East Croydon (not that I really think the got to planning the service pattern past the crayonista stage).
Your purple line is north of where the GWML actually crosses Old Oak Common Lane.
Hythe Road would be no good for the Milton Keynes service as it was planned to be on the Mitre Bridge Loop, the connecting line from Mitre Bridge Junction on the West London Line to Willesden High-Level Junction on the North London Line. A WLL northbound train routed that way would find itself pointing towards Stratford rather than Watford. I recall discussions about routing WLL trains to Old Oak Common Lane instead of Stratford via existing low-level trackage through Willesden Junction to the south of the WCML fast lines. That would require one or more dedicated terminal bays at OOC Lane. A low-level through platform for these trains at Willesden Junction could provide interchange with other services there and perhaps the Southern service might call too. All WLL OG trains could be diverted or the service could be split with alternate trains going to OOC or Stratford.
Going back to my notes, at Old Oak Common Lane (North London) by shifting the south/west bound goods line closer to the north/east bound by about 4m, the platforms could be as much as 5m wide. Similar for the West London Orbital side, with the southbound platform being slightly narrower as it overlooks residential property. Thanet Parkway, according to images I've seen, is your model. Don't forget that stairway and lift access has to be factored in.
Here is Hythe Road. Again 120m long, platforms 6m wide. Note that it is crammed into the only straight section of track. The curves at each end are very severe and have heavy speed restriction on. 20mph (I think). Red is pedestrian access to HS2 (purple line).
A very large area occupied by Car Giant both ides of Hythe Road (road). This is new to me, but then it's been some time since I griced Mitre Bridge Signal Box, although I've been past since.
EDIT: The orange line is a deep level cable tunnel.
Here is Hythe Road. Again 120m long, platforms 6m wide. Note that it is crammed into the only straight section of track. The curves at each end are very severe and have heavy speed restriction on. 20mph (I think). Red is pedestrian access to HS2 (purple line).
A very large area occupied by Car Giant both ides of Hythe Road (road). This is new to me, but then it's been some time since I griced Mitre Bridge Signal Box, although I've been past since.
EDIT: The orange line is a deep level cable tunnel.
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Chris Butler
Member
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Thanks, yes, of course. I think I got the logic chain the wrong way round in my ageing memory. The Hythe Road site was the only place they could find to fit the platforms and that's what prevented the Southern service being served for the reason you point out.
Every time I look at it Mitre Bridge itself looks mighty tempting place to put the station !
Of course Thanet Parkway has 300 passengers a day (though doubtless its capacity is higher) and even then it does have mid platform exits and far more circulation space outside those exits that Old Oak Common Lane.
Yes moving the freight lines would help.
The other constraint is the lack (till they build Old Oak Lane) of places for passengers entry/exits. Midland Road is fine (and that seems to be in their plan as a second exit) but it's the wrong side for OOC Station. Old Oak Common Lane is just so narrow but maybe it could be widened.
I'm pretty sure they planned a third platform at Hythe Road, didn't they ?
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