What makes a station get managed by Network Rail?

[Transilien]

I used to think it was only important stations with many different operators that got managed by Network Rail; for example, Birmingham New Street. However, this isn't true with major stations with multiple operators like Newcastle being managed by LNER and smaller ones like Guildford which only has two operators (the vast majority of services at Guildford being operated by SWR) being managed by Network Rail.

Is there an actual reason why some stations are managed by Network Rail?

 

[swt_passenger]

I used to think it was only important stations with many different operators that got managed by Network Rail; for example, Birmingham New Street. However, this isn't true with major stations with multiple operators like Newcastle being managed by LNER and smaller ones like Guildford which only has two operators (the vast majority of services at Guildford being operated by SWR) being managed by Network Rail. Is there an actual reason why some stations are managed by Network Rail?

IIRC Guildford is because NR wanted all the rental benefits from above station commercial property re-development.
It’s not that long since Newcastle (and I think York) were said to be transferring to NR, did that get abandoned?

(It seems to have be ten years ago, at the 2015 franchise change. Did it not happen??

 

[Backroom_boy]

Looks like it didn't happen; these are the non-london NR managed stations from their website;

Birmingham New Street
Bristol Temple Meads
Edinburgh Waverley
Glasgow Central
Guildford
Leeds City
Liverpool Lime Street
Manchester Piccadilly
Reading

Imho seems nonsense Lime Street and Temple Meads are managed and not York and Newcastle

 

[DanNCL]

It’s not that long since Newcastle (and I think York) were said to be transferring to NR, did that get abandoned?

(It seems to have be ten years ago, at the 2015 franchise change. Did it not happen??

Both are still LNER managed. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing!

 

[brad465]

Will it matter when GBR is fully setup?

 

[WAB]

Will it matter when GBR is fully setup?

There may still be a different management structure for major stations, perhaps managed by a HQ function rather than a regional function? Particularly at cat A stations with multiple operators.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Probably not. From what is being said, they all look like being operated on a Region/Route basis.

 

[Horizon22]

Probably not. From what is being said, they all look like being operated on a Region/Route basis.

Interesting. Personally I'd have thought some might be better grouped altogether (e.g. all the London Terminals).

 

[stuving]

IIRC Guildford is because NR wanted all the rental benefits from above station commercial property re-development.

I don't see how - surely all the development business is a matter for NR as owners. Even more so since they jointly own the developers (Solum) with Kier. I understood that the disruption from the redevelopment, and how uncertain that was (and still is!), meant it was too difficult to write a lease agreement.

 

[Mikey C]

There are odd exceptions in London too, where Cannon Street is managed by Network Rail, but Fenchurch Street and Marylebone aren't, when all 3 are single operator stations.

 

[Annetts key]

The word was, that apparently GWR were doing such a poor job of maintaining Bristol Temple Meads station, that Network Rail decided to manage it themselves. Hence the slightly unusual arrangement of nearly all the station staff remaining GWR employees.

Originally, Bristol Temple Meads station was managed by FGW/GWR.

 

[Recessio]

Guildford used to be served by more TOCs, rather than being so SWR centric. I believe Southern and Cross Country services used to call there. I also think FCC included Guildford on the Thameslink maps with an eye to going there, but not sure if they ever did.

Nowadays though yes it's nearly all SWR with a few GWR services on the North Downs Line, which does make it a bit of an oddity to be managed by NR.

 

[DelW]

Guildford used to be served by more TOCs, rather than being so SWR centric. I believe Southern and Cross Country services used to call there. I also think FCC included Guildford on the Thameslink maps with an eye to going there, but not sure if they ever did.

Nowadays though yes it's nearly all SWR with a few GWR services on the North Downs Line, which does make it a bit of an oddity to be managed by NR.

Cross Country was only a token two trains per day, other than during diversions when the normal route via Basingstoke and Winchester is closed. (Those diversions still occur regularly.)

Southern used to have regular trains from/to Victoria via the New Line, Epsom and West Croydon. IIRC the final vestiges of those went during COVID (not sure of that though).

Thameslink services were certainly intended, but I don't recall if they ever ran. If they did, it wasn't for long.

Current typical off-peak usage is
GWR 4tph Reading to or from Gatwick
SWR 6tph Waterloo to or from Portsmouth or Haslemere
& 6tph Waterloo via New Line (3 arriving, 3 departing)

So arguably about 75% SWR and 25% GWR, though SWR will have a rather higher proportion of passenger numbers, and more peak extras.

 

[Transilien]

Thameslink services were certainly intended, but I don't recall if they ever ran. If they did, it wasn't for long.

They ran at the very beginning of Thameslink under NSE. They lasted for only a very short time however.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Imho seems nonsense Lime Street and Temple Meads are managed and not York and Newcastle

Originally, Lime St and Leeds, and maybe others, were managed by ex-regional railways TOCs, as they ran the majority of services.
NR gradually took over these stations and others.

 

[The exile]

The word was, that apparently GWR were doing such a poor job of maintaining Bristol Temple Meads station, that Network Rail decided to manage it themselves. Hence the slightly unusual arrangement of nearly all the station staff remaining GWR employees.

Originally, Bristol Temple Meads station was managed by FGW/GWR.

Might be this - but there was also a massive redevelopment on the cards (the slimmed down version which is happening now is big enough) involving a lot of work at NR level (no way NR weren’t going to be the project lead) so that might well have had an influence on the decision.

 

[davetheguard]

The word was, that apparently GWR were doing such a poor job of maintaining Bristol Temple Meads station, that Network Rail decided to manage it themselves. Hence the slightly unusual arrangement of nearly all the station staff remaining GWR employees.

Don't forget that GWR and all the other TOCs that manage stations are only ever tennants - Network Rail still own the station.

The landlord is responsible for major maintenance surely?

In any case, Network Rail are responsible for things like roofs & canopies at every station, whoever manages it. This is how you get a situation like at Exeter St. David's where GWR have repainted the station buildings up to a certain level, but above that Network Rail have not painted their bit, which looks very shabby in contrast.

 

[Annetts key]

Don't forget that GWR and all the other TOCs that manage stations are only ever tennants - Network Rail still own the station.

The landlord is responsible for major maintenance surely?

In any case, Network Rail are responsible for things like roofs & canopies at every station, whoever manages it. This is how you get a situation like at Exeter St. David's where GWR have repainted the station buildings up to a certain level, but above that Network Rail have not painted their bit, which looks very shabby in contrast.

Network Rail own, as did Railtrack, nearly all the stations and always did since they were transferred from BR.
I don’t know where the demarcation is as to who is responsible for what in terms of maintenance, but I expect those details are in the relevant agreements. I do know that it’s now a long time since the change happened at B.T.M.

 

[Djgr]

The word was, that apparently GWR were doing such a poor job of maintaining Bristol Temple Meads station, that Network Rail decided to manage it themselves. Hence the slightly unusual arrangement of nearly all the station staff remaining GWR employees.

Originally, Bristol Temple Meads station was managed by FGW/GWR.

Ditto Liverpool Lime Street and "First" North Western

 

[Zomboid]

The landlord is responsible for major maintenance surely?

Depends on the terms of the lease. It's certainly possible for a lease to include giving the tenants responsibility for all maintenance and renewal activities.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are odd exceptions in London too, where Cannon Street is managed by Network Rail, but Fenchurch Street and Marylebone aren't

Fenchurch Street is even weirder. I thought it was managed by Network Rail because all the signage in the station is in the Network Rail corporate style rather than c2c's corporate style, but it turns out it isn't. Does anyone know if it was previously managed by NR?

 

[stuving]

Depends on the terms of the lease. It's certainly possible for a lease to include giving the tenants responsibility for all maintenance and renewal activities.

Station leases do give TOCs some responsibility for capital works - bidders for franchises were expected to compete in promising money for this. I think quite a bit of that survives in the current contracts, illogical as it sounds. How will things evolve towards GBR (and they should already be doing so for OLR operators)? Well...

LNER have a tender notice out (11th June) for "Provision of Architect Services for LNER Projects & Works". This is describes as:

LNER invites you to tender to be appointed on to a framework for the provision of architect services in accordance with the schedule of services attached to this ITT.

The proposed contract is for a duration of two years, with an option for LNER to extend for further one-year periods up to a maximum of 3 years

The contract shall be awarded to up to a maximum of three suppliers to carry out the services under the framework agreement who will then operate on a rotational basis

This agreement will allow us to direct award services up to a maximum construction value of £2m.

Works will be varied and on any station on our route, such as (not limited to)

• New waiting Rooms
• Redesigns of current spaces
• Wayfinding
• Spatial planning
• Major refurbishments
• Capex/Opex schemes via SAMP

(SAMP is, I think, Strategic Asset Management Plan.)

With a spend of only £2M, this is all small stuff. I wonder how much this work is dictated by DfT and/or NR.

 

[Mikey C]

Fenchurch Street is even weirder. I thought it was managed by Network Rail because all the signage in the station is in the Network Rail corporate style rather than c2c's corporate style, but it turns out it isn't. Does anyone know if it was previously managed by NR?

According to the Wiki page on Network Rail, they used to manage Fenchurch Street until 2014

Network Rail operated Gatwick Airport station until January 2012 when it was transferred to Southern, and Fenchurch Street until November 2014 when it was transferred to c2c. Network Rail took over management of Bristol Temple Meads and Reading in April 2014.

Network Rail - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Transilien]

Fenchurch Street is even weirder. I thought it was managed by Network Rail because all the signage in the station is in the Network Rail corporate style rather than c2c's corporate style, but it turns out it isn't. Does anyone know if it was previously managed by NR?

Guildford still looks like it could be any old SWT/R station.

 

[Mikey C]

I noticed last week that Haddenham & Thame Parkway has the same hand driers in the toilets as Marylebone, showing their common Chiltern Railway management. A different supplier to the Dysons in most Network Rail stations

 

[Recessio]

Don't forget that GWR and all the other TOCs that manage stations are only ever tennants - Network Rail still own the station.

The landlord is responsible for major maintenance surely?

In any case, Network Rail are responsible for things like roofs & canopies at every station, whoever manages it. This is how you get a situation like at Exeter St. David's where GWR have repainted the station buildings up to a certain level, but above that Network Rail have not painted their bit, which looks very shabby in contrast.

Network Rail own, as did Railtrack, nearly all the stations and always did since they were transferred from BR.
I don’t know where the demarcation is as to who is responsible for what in terms of maintenance, but I expect those details are in the relevant agreements. I do know that it’s now a long time since the change happened at B.T.M.

There can be some oddities in the boundaries. I believe that at Essex Road and other Northern City line stations, the TOC is responsible for the tiling and floors on platforms, but the far tunnel walls (including the big surviving NSE era route map) are NR maintained.

 

[WAB]

Don't forget that GWR and all the other TOCs that manage stations are only ever tennants - Network Rail still own the station.

The landlord is responsible for major maintenance surely?

In any case, Network Rail are responsible for things like roofs & canopies at every station, whoever manages it. This is how you get a situation like at Exeter St. David's where GWR have repainted the station buildings up to a certain level, but above that Network Rail have not painted their bit, which looks very shabby in contrast.

As you say, Network Rail have a substantial role in the maintenance of stations managed by TOCs. This makes maintenance and projects quite complex.

 

[plugwash]

There can be some oddities in the boundaries. I believe that at Essex Road and other Northern City line stations, the TOC is responsible for the tiling and floors on platforms, but the far tunnel walls (including the big surviving NSE era route map) are NR maintained.

I presume the intent was that the TOCs would maintain stuff that was easilly accessible from the platform, while NR would maintain stuff that was more difficult/dangerous to access.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Don't forget that GWR and all the other TOCs that manage stations are only ever tennants - Network Rail still own the station.

At the risk of being a pedant, this isn't strictly true. In Cardiff, Central is owned by NR and managed by TfW while TfW own Queen Street and the other CVL stations outright.

Since the CVL, unlike some other 'Metros' is operated by heavy, rather than light rail, it is still considered part of the national network.

 

[faltskog36abba]

IIRC Guildford is because NR wanted all the rental benefits from above station commercial property re-development.
It’s not that long since Newcastle (and I think York) were said to be transferring to NR, did that get abandoned?

(It seems to have be ten years ago, at the 2015 franchise change. Did it not happen??

I remember Manchester Victoria and Manchester Oxford Road were supposed to be going over to Network Rail, Then it was dropped.