What makes an InterCity class train?

[Topological]

What about the fastest of the class 444 services out of Waterloo?

That did nearly make the list.

Of all the services not to receive the original InterCity branding that is one of the ones that could have done.

It certainly skips stops that most other trains call at. Southampton Airport Parkway might not be a big stop, but Eastleigh feels like it is and that gets skipped. There is nothing wrong with InterCity trains serving aiports. Poole would have gained an * on my list because the train only really goes there as an extension of a London to Bournemouth.

 

[allbarbarry]

The Gatwick Express was branded as InterCity under British Rail, was a locomotive-hauled train with coaching stock and served 2 major centres of population - namely London and Gatwick Airport. But I still wouldn't call it a proper 'intercity' running. The term was and still is used in a fast and loose manner.

 

[DelW]

Why is the positioning of the doors relevant if there are internal doors?

Look at TGV Duplex coaches, they most certainly are intercity yet don’t have end doors as end doors are not possible for low floor coaches for obvious reasons.

In general, stock with 1/3 & 2/3 doors (or similar) don't have vestibule doors, so when the doors are opened at stations, heat is lost in winter or heat enters in summer. I accept there may be exceptions to this - probably the most comfortable stock I've ever travelled on was Amtrak's Pacific Surfliner which has 1/3 & 2/3 doors, albeit they're on the bottom deck and I was on the top.

But I was only considering British trains in my earlier reply.

 

[A S Leib]

The Gatwick Express was branded as InterCity under British Rail, was a locomotive-hauled train with coaching stock and served 2 major centres of population - namely London and Gatwick Airport. But I still wouldn't call it a proper 'intercity' running. The term was and still is used in a fast and loose manner.

I think the Gatwick Express still counts as an airport express (and would call it that rather than an intercity service), despite more regular stops being added between Gatwick and Brighton; the Heathrow Express is definitely an airport express, but I'm less sure on the Stansted Express. St. Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway on Corby services is 73 mph and is a London – Northamptonshire service as much as a London – Luton one; Liverpool Street to Stansted is ~43 mph.

 

[Snow1964]

My definition is long way from the way it is used

eg Cardiff-Portsmouth serves 7 cities (have city status in UK), but is not deemed inter city

But some trains operating services like London-York serve less places with city status, but are defined by many as inter city.

 

[Llanigraham]

Whilst Topological's list is quite extensive, I am surprised he hasn't included the Euston - North Wales Avanto service.

 

[43096]

It's really simple...

If I say it is InterCity quality, then it is!

To my mind, an InterCity train has:
- Standard class 2+2 seating
- First class 2+1 seating
- Door vestibules isolated from seating area by internal door(s)
- At least a buffet service (NOT just a trolley) open to all passengers

So, on that basis, LNER, Avanti West Coast, Greater Anglia Norwich services worked by 745/0s and Caledonian Sleeper are InterCity. EMR isn't. GWR isn't as the catering is not up to scratch - including the Pullman service, as the facility is not open to all. XC certainly isn't. They are more what I would term InterRegio (IR) services, in some cases even Regional Express (RE).

 

[Topological]

Whilst Topological's list is quite extensive, I am surprised he hasn't included the Euston - North Wales Avanto service.

Purely because I forgot it. Sorry to the people of North Wales.

 

[Spaceflower]

But that's not topological captain!

 

[A S Leib]

Are there any intercity services in the UK which don't (or have recently not had) the ability to reserve seats, or obviously non-intercity services with seat reservations and not just counted places?

 

[Wychwood93]

What about the fastest of the class 444 services out of Waterloo?

A fast service out of Waterloo towards Bournemouth has long gone! The 100 minute fast service to Bournemouth in 1967, stopping only at Southampton, 2 minute scheduled stop and then 28 to Bournemouth is but a dream. There was a best scheduled time of 67 minutes to Southampton at one time - I timed, in 1987 IIRC, a 59m 32s with an 8-car REP/4TC without exceeding 95. Despite line-speed increases with the 442s to 100 at assorted places before Southampton, and other PSRs being raised - Worting Junction from 60 to 90, Northam Junction from 15 to 25 and various others (Lyndhurst Road/Ashurst, Woodfidley, Brockenhurst/Lymington Jn and Sway) the fast Inter-City nature of the line, not that I would ever have described it as that, has been impacted somewhat, like GWR, by the introduction of assorted additional stops driven by 'clock face' timetables and, perhaps, the irritation of having customers! A touch off-thread and my apologies for that.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I don’t think intercity needs to be truly limited stop, otherwise you’re looking at a crack express.

I think for me intercity technically could be done with any train, like a class 321 to Norwich, but it needs to have an air of quality to it. Like the former post-1986 BR sub sector did.

So that means, if you really had to use class 321s to Norwich, along with places like Clacton and Southend, the Norwich pool of trains would need to have carpet, tables, 2+2 seating, reserved seating, enough space to eradicate standing room as much as possible (so fixed 8 car formations), generous first class seating aimed towards business travellers.

 

[William3000]

To me, an "InterCity" train is precisely that - it's one that stops only at massive population centres. A "regional express" would be one that stops at larger towns, whereas a "commuter train" would be one that stops at every single station. Coaching stock doesn't matter - it is purely the stopping pattern that defines which name it is.

That's just my opinion though. I don't think I've ever seen an official definition anywhere!

But I’m not sure that works. Most inter city trains starting from London often miss large towns and cities close to London while stopping at small towns and larger villages further away. For example Bedford, St Albans, Slough, Watford, often missed while further afield Camborne, Redruth, Penrith, Aviemore get stops.

Also there are long distance regional trains like Norwich to Liverpool that stop at major cities akin to inter city patterns like Manchester Piccadilly, Nottingham, Sheffield but the type of train used means it isn’t inter city. Then in East Anglia you basically have identical interiors on inter city 745s that run to Norwich as well as to Stansted Airport which stop a few at Stansted Mountfitchet.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It definitely makes it "feel" more like an IC train with end doors rather that mid-coach doors.

But end doors precludes level boarding which is now starting to appear on Intercity trains across Western Europe (including the UK with the East Anglia IC sets).

 

[Philip]

I think one definition which could be used is a service which reaches speeds of 110mph or more. Most, if not all, regional express services don't go above 100mph.

 

[vuzzeho]

I don’t think intercity needs to be truly limited stop, otherwise you’re looking at a crack express.

I think for me intercity technically could be done with any train, like a class 321 to Norwich, but it needs to have an air of quality to it. Like the former post-1986 BR sub sector did.

So that means, if you really had to use class 321s to Norwich, along with places like Clacton and Southend, the Norwich pool of trains would need to have carpet, tables, 2+2 seating, reserved seating, enough space to eradicate standing room as much as possible (so fixed 8 car formations), generous first class seating aimed towards business travellers.

I agree. InterCity, in my mind, consists of two parts - the actual route and stops, and the service itself. I expect an InterCity train to have more emphasis on service (I like how LNER does it), seating comfort (I like Avanti for this), and be more like a limited stop service. Not necessarily an actual limited stop express. End doors aren't necessary, but a separated vestibule is nice.

 

[AndrewBiro]

BR introduced the concept (from a WR's Paddington-Birmingham express) but could never define it or decide what it was/wasn't. It has fallen out-of-use for the reasons discussed above and is now unhelpful/redundant (and IMO should remain that way!)

 

[vuzzeho]

It has fallen out-of-use for the reasons discussed above and is now unhelpful/redundant

Apart from in Europe, and with the InterCity Express Trains, and with Greater Anglia, EMR, GWR (referring to their IETs), and LNER (referring to IC225).

 

[Harpo]

Only todays ECML and WCML (plus maybe the odd fast GWR west of England service?) would fit the speed, comfort, quality and service standards that the 80s/90s InterCity sector aspired to.

Norwich in 90 needs special mention as a good IC speed improvement effort but with regional rolling stock, while GWR to Bristol and South Wales etc. are regional all-shacks services and often slower than early HST timings.

 

[Mikey C]

It's harder to define now, partially because commuter/regional trains are nicer than before, thus closing the gap. When the regional DMU/EMU is a 100mph aircon train (especially some of the nicer 2+2 ones), the gap between intercity and other trains becomes less obvious.

A Chiltern 168 is a "commuter" train, but even with the diesel rumble arguably more comfortable than either an Avanti 390 or a GWR IET. The 2+2 LNWR 350s are nice trains to travel in, light years ahead of the previous 321s.

 

[Transilien]

Inter-City in my opinion shouldn't be about stopping Pattern or level of comfort, It should be about the degree of national importance that the service has. Sometimes Inter-City trains have to stop at all stations on the route because there are no alternatives due to capacity constraints. Every country's railway network has differences and there can be no 'true' definition of that type of service. For example, Inter-City services in the Netherlands and Belgium are more similar to regional express or even communter trains, while many TER trains (like Marseille to Nice) in France would be likely considered a Cross country Inter-City route if it was in the UK. This is due to great differences in both size and population density in these countries.

 

[dk1]

Norwich in 90 needs special mention as a good IC speed improvement effort but with regional rolling stock, while GWR to Bristol and South Wales etc. are regional all-shacks services and often slower than early HST timings.

We have IC stock with cafe bar and 1st class on most Norwich services. I also almost achieved Ni90 this morning on 9P19 but was thwarted awaiting a darn platform at Liverpool Street Grrrr!!!

 

[Peter0124]

Is the Thameslink 2 1/2 hour route between Brighton and Cambridge considered to be InterCity? In that case, you're treated to the luxury of ironing board seats, overhead luggage racks and not much else.

Or Edinburgh-Helensburgh Central via Glasgow? You're treated to the luxury of no tables with 334s, the only Scotrail stock not to feature them. Even the older 318s and 320s have tables?

Obviously though this service is a commuter one stopping at 35 stations and few use it to travel Edinburgh-Glasgow.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To amend an old joke...
"Ask ten rail enthusiasts what "InterCity" means, and you'll get twelve different answers".

 

[Harpo]

We have IC stock with cafe bar and 1st class on most Norwich services.

With 1/3-2/3 doors I rate the 345s but as excellent regional stock. They could be fitted out in suburban format and still be absolutely fine for Southends etc..

 

[dk1]

With 1/3-2/3 doors I rate the 345s but as excellent regional stock. They could be fitted out in suburban format and still be absolutely fine for Southends etc..

Do you mean 745s? We only have one door in the middle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

We also have 2+2 seating, tables and the 745/0s have internal doors protecting passengers from draughts.

 

[Spaceflower]

I'm genuinely shocked that nobody has mentioned inter7city yet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm genuinely shocked that nobody has mentioned inter7city yet!

I've used one of those and a 170 this week and the 170 was vastly superior. Comfortable seats and superb window view (all seats aligned). Just a tragedy there aren't twice as many of them and they aren't all 5 car.

Certainly knocks a Voyager into a cocked hat. I hope the forthcoming ScotRail 222s are given a nice refurb to the same standards.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's really simple...

If I say it is InterCity quality, then it is!

To my mind, an InterCity train has:
- Standard class 2+2 seating
- First class 2+1 seating
- Door vestibules isolated from seating area by internal door(s)
- At least a buffet service (NOT just a trolley) open to all passengers

So, on that basis, LNER, Avanti West Coast, Greater Anglia Norwich services worked by 745/0s and Caledonian Sleeper are InterCity. EMR isn't. GWR isn't as the catering is not up to scratch - including the Pullman service, as the facility is not open to all. XC certainly isn't. They are more what I would term InterRegio (IR) services, in some cases even Regional Express (RE).

EMR have all of those things on Meridians, unless they’ve closed the buffets unbeknownst to me.

The Pullman service is also open to standard class passengers but first class get priority.

The unreliable TfW MK4 sets have the above, as did a great deal of South West Trains pre-refurbishment 444s, including on Poole stoppers, but they’re definitely not Intercity services. I think there has to be some sort of criteria based on speed and how limited calls are as well as the train configuration criteria mentioned above.

I do also think general ambience plays a part. 397s would fail your above criteria on account of no buffet, but I would argue that their internal ambience feels FAR more like a long distance express train than a 745, and my also personal opinion is that 397 First Class beats the stuffing out of the 745s. They also offer hot meals in first too, whereas Greater Anglia give you a packet of crisps on weekdays only. The former treatment definitely feels more Intercity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

I'm genuinely shocked that nobody has mentioned inter7city yet!

Trundling along at the speed they do, is it fair to?
Speaking of them though, by 43096’s criteria, these would be considered Intercity while the full length XC HSTs wouldn’t have, due to the lack of buffet, which is crazy to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

745/0s have internal doors protecting passengers from draughts.

Far too often locked open though.

 

[Harpo]

Do you mean 745s? We only have one door in the middle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

We also have 2+2 seating, tables and the 745/0s have internal doors protecting passengers from draughts.

Yes, sorry 745s. Too many years of 3xx in East Anglia! But yes, 745s are superb however configured.

But a 745 would never be acceptable for the ECML or WCML IC services. So, regional/suburban it is.