What more can be done for passengers needing assistance?

[Tio Terry]

Unfortunately having a railway network built largely long before such issues were considered, having uniform door levels will not alleviate the disparity of platform heights, curves and cambers.

A much simpler answer is to ensure that whenever assistance is booked & needed, that crews / station staff are aware & reminded at an appropriate time (i.e. on approach to the start & destination stations) that they have passengers that require their attention.

But that does not meet the requirements of the Equality Act.

If you have a turn up and go service for the abled then you have to have an equal service for PRM, not one that requires special and specific booking arrangements. That’s why changes to infrastructure and rolling stock are the answer to the problem. As mentioned above, technology exists allowing step free access arrangements in other countries already, time the UK took the requirements more seriously.

 

[Bantamzen]

But that does not meet the requirements of the Equality Act.

If you have a turn up and go service for the abled then you have to have an equal service for PRM, not one that requires special and specific booking arrangements. That’s why changes to infrastructure and rolling stock are the answer to the problem. As mentioned above, technology exists allowing step free access arrangements in other countries already, time the UK took the requirements more seriously.

That doesn't change the fact that some of our stations may not be suitable for passengers with disabilities to board without assistance. That would require a lot of stations to be rebuilt, re-sited or even closed. What is required is "reasonable adjustments", and in some cases that may mean passengers have to request assistance in advance, especially at places where crews may not be aware of a person requiring assistance on arrival at a station.

Of course the extreme way to resolve that would be to make all passengers book in advance thereby removing any inequality on a "turn up and go" railway.

 

[Energy]

Cough class 755/745

 

[Tio Terry]

That doesn't change the fact that some of our stations may not be suitable for passengers with disabilities to board without assistance. That would require a lot of stations to be rebuilt, re-sited or even closed. What is required is "reasonable adjustments", and in some cases that may mean passengers have to request assistance in advance, especially at places where crews may not be aware of a person requiring assistance on arrival at a station.

Of course the extreme way to resolve that would be to make all passengers book in advance thereby removing any inequality on a "turn up and go" railway.

If our European cousins can overcome the need to cater for PRM even when their platforms are sometimes at or about rail level then I don’t think it’s beyond our ability to deal with a few steps and gaps. The best way to do that is with train mounted facilities, that overcomes historical infrastructure deficiencies.

 

[Bantamzen]

Cough class 755/745

Would you care to expand?

If our European cousins can overcome the need to cater for PRM even when their platforms are sometimes at or about rail level then I don’t think it’s beyond our ability to deal with a few steps and gaps. The best way to do that is with train mounted facilities, that overcomes historical infrastructure deficiencies.

And the infrastructure elsewhere can often be very different. And do all European trains comply, or are there still some that cannot / do not? As I say, we have a very old network & the infrastructure is such that sometime it simply isn't always possible to prove a turn-up-and-go service even to able bodied passengers (see the thread on arrival times at stations with level crossings). That isn't going to change anytime soon.

Retro-fitting all fleets with a solution that could handle a mixture of platform heights, various cambers, differing widths & heights of platform gaps, and a narrower gauge than most of Europe is not only going to be vastly expensive & disruptive, but it probably still won't be effective everywhere. Sorry, but regardless of what the legislators think & say, and I'll wager they didn't give a second thought to these kinds of problems, there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[jimbo99]

I was impressed on the treatment of my mother on her first run out since suffering spinal injury which leaves her in a wheelchair. Simple journey: East Croydon to Brighton, friendly staff ramp in hand ready to meet her. But one thing lacking: the staff happily got the ramp out and saw her into the vestibule, but did nothing to ensure the wheelchair space was free. Outbound the space was partially occupied by a family who didn't want to budge and my mother was to embarrassed to ask. Consequently she sat by a door which was a bit cold and she couldn't see out properly. Inbound, again the space was occupied but the passengers immediately leapt up.

 

[OneOffDave]

I can understand platforms being different heights at different stations but what does surprise me is the variation within stations such as Waterloo and even along the length of the same platform as well as the differences from platform to platform

 

[Gems]

I was impressed on the treatment of my mother on her first run out since suffering spinal injury which leaves her in a wheelchair. Simple journey: East Croydon to Brighton, friendly staff ramp in hand ready to meet her. But one thing lacking: the staff happily got the ramp out and saw her into the vestibule, but did nothing to ensure the wheelchair space was free. Outbound the space was partially occupied by a family who didn't want to budge and my mother was to embarrassed to ask. Consequently she sat by a door which was a bit cold and she couldn't see out properly. Inbound, again the space was occupied but the passengers immediately leapt up.

On my train the family moves. Or they move onto the platform and onto the next train. I incorporate "Please keep the disabled areas free of luggage" in my pre-departure announcements.
I'm very sorry your mother experienced this. But we have a developing situation now that staff are wary of getting involved because the TOC's won't back them up. We see it now and again. Staff fulfilling company policy, being filmed doing so on a mobile device, company falling over backwards to distance themselves from the outcome of their own policy.

 

[Tio Terry]

I can understand platforms being different heights at different stations but what does surprise me is the variation within stations such as Waterloo and even along the length of the same platform as well as the differences from platform to platform

In fairness, Waterloo is a bit different, there’s not much ballast between the bottom of the sleepers and the arches beneath them so reducing the step is a problem. Raising the platforms also has it difficulties with lifts, stairs and the like. But it’s not impossible.

 

[OneOffDave]

In fairness, Waterloo is a bit different, there’s not much ballast between the bottom of the sleepers and the arches beneath them so reducing the step is a problem. Raising the platforms also has it difficulties with lifts, stairs and the like. But it’s not impossible.

It's not so much the size but the range of variation across the station that surprises me

 

[Energy]

Would you care to expand?

The 755s and 745s have level access proving it can be done as you said about platform heights.

 

[markymark2000]

The 755s and 745s have level access proving it can be done as you said about platform heights.

It can be done but it takes a lot of work. Branch lines it's easy to incorporate this sort of thing but old or large stations, it's much easier to have staff with ramps.

In my opinion, Merseyrails current system is the best one. The guard puts the ramp out for wheelchairs with no notice needed (Even if there is no step free access like Eastham Rake). Where guards are on trains, I don't see a reason why this wouldn't work. Down south with DOO, this wouldn't work and also where you are using trains of 6+ carriages with 1 guard but anywhere you have 6 or less carriages and you have a guard onboard (or even OBS/OBM/TTI) this should be the system introduced in my opinion.

 

[Bantamzen]

The 755s and 745s have level access proving it can be done as you said about platform heights.

It can be done but it takes a lot of work. Branch lines it's easy to incorporate this sort of thing but old or large stations, it's much easier to have staff with ramps.

In my opinion, Merseyrails current system is the best one. The guard puts the ramp out for wheelchairs with no notice needed (Even if there is no step free access like Eastham Rake). Where guards are on trains, I don't see a reason why this wouldn't work. Down south with DOO, this wouldn't work and also where you are using trains of 6+ carriages with 1 guard but anywhere you have 6 or less carriages and you have a guard onboard (or even OBS) this should be the system introduced in my opinion.

Exactly, having a unit with a level access ramp doesn't solve the problem by itself, you need the infrastructure to match. I'm not familiar with the stations along the routes that the 745/755s will work, but just from a local perspective I know we have problematic stations close to me such as Shipley with a couple of platforms with severe curves, or platforms like Saltaire with quite severe cambers. And these are just two within a mile or so of each other, there are plenty more across the network. I'm not saying that nothing can be done, just that without wholly standardising platform heights, curves & lengths, there will never be a one size fits all solution.

 

[Robertj21a]

Exactly, having a unit with a level access ramp doesn't solve the problem by itself, you need the infrastructure to match. I'm not familiar with the stations along the routes that the 745/755s will work, but just from a local perspective I know we have problematic stations close to me such as Shipley with a couple of platforms with severe curves, or platforms like Saltaire with quite severe cambers. And these are just two within a mile or so of each other, there are plenty more across the network. I'm not saying that nothing can be done, just that without wholly standardising platform heights, curves & lengths, there will never be a one size fits all solution.

Interesting - is there any national standard for new platform heights etc at the present time ?

 

[Bantamzen]

Interesting - is there any national standard for new platform heights etc at the present time ?

I honestly have no idea, there's probably a standard for new stations / platforms. But its clear that for older ones there is a lot a variance.

 

[Tio Terry]

Interesting - is there any national standard for new platform heights etc at the present time ?

Yes, RSSB GIRT7020 states 915mm above rail level for all new platforms.

There are a number of other publications, like the Stations Design Guide, but the real things to read are the PRM TSI and the Equalities Act. Roundly, for something to be classed as step free you are looking at a gap/step of not greater than 50mm wide/high. Greater than that and you need to have some other form of mitigation.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes, RSSB GIRT7020 states 915mm above rail level for all new platforms.

There are a number of other publications, like the Stations Design Guide, but the real things to read are the PRM TSI and the Equalities Act. Roundly, for something to be classed as step free you are looking at a gap/step of not greater than 50mm wide/high. Greater than that and you need to have some other form of mitigation.

Excellent, at least there is something already laid down. I had this horrible feeling that we might not have even reached this stage yet.