What protection do we have against snow and ice on points?

[whhistle]

I was just reading about the "polar vortex brings cold snap to US states" where there's a video showing how America uses fire to melt snow at intersections to ensure points are fine. It looks like the gas heaters are installed next to the track all the time.

What protection do we have against snow and ice on points?

 

[t_star2001uk]

The majority of mainline points in the uk are electrically heated...

 

[edwin_m]

Most critical areas have point heaters. Gas ones were popular in the 1960s but they are now mostly (all?) electric, due to concerns about starting a fire if there is a spillage of an inflammable load.

There are of course always a few that turn out (ha!) not to be working the first time they are needed each winter.

 

[robbeech]

Or indeed turn out not to be working at any random point over winter. Like BOTH sides of Sheffield this morning.

 

[superkev]

I've always puzzled over why the railway dosent have cheap Dutch Barn type structures over remote and important junctions. They could even incorporate Infra red type radiant heaters.
The days when vast gangs of personal with snow brooms where available to clear points has long gone.
K

 

[mallard]

It puzzles me how the heaters can just "turn out" not to be working. An electric heating element is, at it's core, just a length of high-resistance conductor. It should be very simple to monitor whether such a thing is working or not; if the circuit is continuous, it's (virtually certain to be) working, otherwise it isn't. That's far less complexity than is needed for things like signal proving, point control, etc... Surely having a heater status display in some control center somewhere isn't beyond the wit of man (or Network Rail).

At they very least, having a report of broken heaters to provide to maintenance staff ahead of any expected cold weather would undoubtedly be very valuable... Or maybe such a thing already exists, but doesn't get the attention it deserves? Surely it's cheaper to fix the heaters ahead of time than to pay delay minutes when the points inevitably seize up?

 

[Highlandspring]

Surely having a heater status display in some control center somewhere isn't beyond the wit of man (or Network Rail).

It isn’t, which is why status of points heating is one of the pieces of telemetry monitored by Network Rail’s Intelligent Infrastructure remote condition monitoring system in the various Route Controls. They can be cycled on and off remotely through II too but that isn’t possible if they’ve been left on manual override, which os a common cause of points heater problems. As for the “large dutch barn”, big tarpaulin covers have been tried in Scotland in the past (applied after the passage of the last train at night and removed before the passage of the first train in the morning) but were too awkward to be of any use.

 

[tsr]

It puzzles me how the heaters can just "turn out" not to be working. An electric heating element is, at it's core, just a length of high-resistance conductor. It should be very simple to monitor whether such a thing is working or not; if the circuit is continuous, it's (virtually certain to be) working, otherwise it isn't. That's far less complexity than is needed for things like signal proving, point control, etc... Surely having a heater status display in some control center somewhere isn't beyond the wit of man (or Network Rail).

At they very least, having a report of broken heaters to provide to maintenance staff ahead of any expected cold weather would undoubtedly be very valuable... Or maybe such a thing already exists, but doesn't get the attention it deserves? Surely it's cheaper to fix the heaters ahead of time than to pay delay minutes when the points inevitably seize up?

Points heaters and conductor rail heating are certainly monitored. Part of the problem (aside from the post above) seems to be repair jobs which never get finished after being logged for months on end, or simply a lack of skilled engineers.

Any big problems usually do get resolved quite quickly as soon as they are flagged up during a weather-related operations conference (generally known as an EWAT) in advance of a big weather event, but if the weather isn’t as predicted or a lesser event happens to ice up things more badly than expected, unresolved faults can be a great nuisance.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There is also something known as a "key route strategy" where only certain points are used - as well as a general instruction (or at least there was in my day) on signalmen moving points periodically in certain weather conditions to reduce the impact on snow / ice build up.

 

[DarloRich]

I was just reading about the "polar vortex brings cold snap to US states" where there's a video showing how America uses fire to melt snow at intersections to ensure points are fine. It looks like the gas heaters are installed next to the track all the time.

What protection do we have against snow and ice on points?

A lady from metro rail in Chicago was just on radio 5 talking about it. She was very keen to point out they weren't setting the track on fire!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A lady from metro rail in Chicago was just on radio 5 talking about it. She was very keen to point out they weren't setting the track on fire!

In an act of desperation , used a pair of 37+an 08 to get a train rolling - after we had burnt cardboard boxes under some wagons , no de-ice some frozen brake pads. Latter not in the Rule Book. It worked.

 

[DarloRich]

In an act of desperation , used a pair of 37+an 08 to get a train rolling - after we had burnt cardboard boxes under some wagons , no de-ice some frozen brake pads. Latter not in the Rule Book. It worked.

Did you burn that page of the rule book

 

[Tio Terry]

A number of years ago, in BR days, we tried out using a lash up involving steam heating from a class 31 attached to hand held lances at Ely North Junction. The idea was that the steam would melt the snow/ice and keep the points clear and working. Worked OK until someone melted the hydraulic pipes that fed the clamp locks, then everything failed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Did you burn that page of the rule book

No one would burn "the good book" - for the guidance of all , and a source of much useful discussion. This was the 1972 Red Covered one. (not today's process orientated one) - and if you did not understand a section some seasoned District / Movements Inspector would put you right.

Actually , very well arranged into functional sections , in plain English.

 

[swt_passenger]

A lady from metro rail in Chicago was just on radio 5 talking about it. She was very keen to point out they weren't setting the track on fire!

I have a suspicion that the BBC only ran the story to imply criticism of Network Rail. Of course they aren’t now likely to report that we’ve moved on past propane heaters to electric heating. Bit of an own goal?

 

[alxndr]

It puzzles me how the heaters can just "turn out" not to be working. An electric heating element is, at it's core, just a length of high-resistance conductor. It should be very simple to monitor whether such a thing is working or not; if the circuit is continuous, it's (virtually certain to be) working, otherwise it isn't. That's far less complexity than is needed for things like signal proving, point control, etc... Surely having a heater status display in some control center somewhere isn't beyond the wit of man (or Network Rail).

A break in the circuit isn't the only issue that can happen, the thermostats themselves can fail. If the command to send energy to the element is never sent then it doesn't make a blind bit of difference if the circuit is complete!

 

[Ben.A.98]

We also have an antifreeze solution to apply to the points, over the slide chairs and around the operating/detection mechanisms. There are also heaters in the point machines to keep the motors from freezing. For the past few days we have had snowmen booked out and located at strategic points down the HML to deal with failures. In previous years when the snow has been worse the decision has been made to close Slochd loop and then cross the trains at either an earlier or later point so as not to keep moving such an exposed set of points that would require constant digging out.

 

[DarloRich]

I have a suspicion that the BBC only ran the story to imply criticism of Network Rail. Of course they aren’t now likely to report that we’ve moved on past propane heaters to electric heating. Bit of an own goal?

There was nothing of that nature in the conversation. They were just discussing an interesting happening that had caught public attention

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve been around when using hand held triple propane burners to defrost manual points. Great fun apparently.

Re electric point heating, and conductor rail heating - most of it is remotely monitored in control. However it is only switched on when it is forecast to be below a certain temperature, as when you have several thousand installations they collectively get through a hell of a lot of juice (well into double figures MW for each of points heating and conductor rail heating south of the river).

Obviously they are tested regularly, and tested especially just before a cold snap. However it’s a bit like lightbulbs; firstly they are most likely to fail when you turn them on, and secondly, when you have several thousand of them, there will always be a few that fail when you need them most.

Also, the condition monitoring can fail too (sometimes as simple as the mobile signal on the unit drops out).

 

[swt_passenger]

There was nothing of that nature in the conversation. They were just discussing an interesting happening that had caught public attention

Fair point, I was thinking more of the original BBC online story and video, rather than radio 5 specifically.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Nothing new in all this - the Chicago coverage just looks interesting - a railway of fire , (remember the Millenium "River of Fire" !) - but this is an area today where it is catastrophically cold , worse than usual. Beer freezes in bottles.

After the 1963 "ice-up" , both LT and BR did some fact finding on how to deal with short , sharp snow and ice issues. They visited places like Stockholm and some good ideas were transferred over - point heating being one and proper de-icing trains. LT tried conductor rail heating in the Moor Park - Amersham section , - de-icing baths (so even non fitted trains picked up a splash of de-icer on the pick up shoes which must have helped) etc etc.

Certain dinosaur sections of BR were against points heaters - a long retired operations manager resisted it on the Shenfield line , as his view was that the local signalmen could go out and de-ice if needed, or failing that the station staff in those non - PTS days.

For my part - having been out in minus 12 on the GE , and voluntarily in 1987 on the South Western (a bad period) , and as a senior manager in 1996 etc, I was always as pro-active as could be - we used to work with RT to run a good number of ice-breakers overnight , sprayed unit doors on berthed stock , kept the units "cut in" with heaters on - and even sprayed de-icer on the pick up shoes on the first AM trains to give them a good run over the frost pocket of Bushey viaduct. The Braemar of Herts.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Braemar of Herts.

Well there’s a sentence I neve thought I’d see!

 

[Chris Hamilton]

During severe cold weather we have been known to insulate the point machines as well, especially those with bare electrical contacts inside, such as HW Type, with loft insulation rolls or sleeping bags. An HW machine has two simple heater elements inside it that are permanently live, but sometimes that just isn’t enough, especially if the lid is ill fitting and moisture has been allowed in. Plus, the heating element could have packed up the day after its last maintenance visit, and with those being 3 months apart.....

We do also still use fire. During the “beast from the east”, my main weapon was a gas can on a sledge. Touring junctions melting all the snow that may have accumulated around stretcher bars, backdrives and the machine. Areas not covered by the points heating equipment.

Signallers are also pretty good at keeping points moving all the time, to prevent any accumulation in a certain position.

 

[AndrewE]

Signallers are also pretty good at keeping points moving all the time, to prevent any accumulation in a certain position.

except that

There is also something known as a "key route strategy" where only certain points are used - as well as a general instruction (or at least there was in my day) on signalmen moving points periodically in certain weather conditions to reduce the impact on snow / ice build up.

as Ben.A.98 points out regarding Slocht summit loop (if I understood it correctly.)
The Brighton line was brought to an unnecessary stand a decade or so ago by a signalman obeying the instruction to move points occasionally: a crossover that was almost never used was blocked by snow when he tried to reset it, and the whole line was blocked. Hence the "key route strategy."
If you are not likely to need a set of points (or the snow strategy says don't use them) then leave well alone!