What rolling stock could be deployed on the TransPennine Route; could we see tilting trains?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Moderator note: Split from

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

Well it was suggested in the Manchester - Liverpool Electrification thread that we have a seperate Transpennine thread. Now I know that Manchester - Stalybridge is actually part of the Northern Hub project , but to me, haulage bashing Peaks in the 1970s-1980s - Liverpool-Newcastle was classed as...

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Have you taken account of the two miles already wired across Leeds?

Well I doubt 802s will pan up/down for the short transit through Leeds.
The OHLE may well not be configured for it anyway, except when stopped at Leeds station.
The OHLE through Leeds may need attention anyway for new TP services (power supply etc).
The planned energisation dates for new wires (after the current two areas have gone live) have not been published anywhere I think.
We could have several disconnected sections if we are not careful, which won't help through operation.
eg We could have Neville Hill-Leeds and Dewsbury-Huddersfield, but not Dewsbury-Leeds or Neville Hill-Church Fenton.
Then there will be Stalybridge-Standedge-Huddersfield to finish off before the bi-modes can be discarded.

 

[D6130]

Then there will be Stalybridge-Standedge-Huddersfield to finish off before the bi-modes can be discarded

Surely the bi-modes will still be required for diversions via the Calder Valley and/or the CLC?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely the bi-modes will still be required for diversions via the Calder Valley and/or the CLC?

Yes but you'd hope TPE (and Northern) would get some straight EMUs for the core TP route.
The 802s can be cascaded to routes without a full set of wires.
To be fair I think the procurements on the stocks for both TOCs will take care of the requirement.
There will also be a fair few Pendolinos coming free in about the same timescale...

 

[Northerngirl]

There will also be a fair few Pendolinos coming free in about the same timescale...

The obvious answer is some 803s, but with the Huddersfield upgrade, would a Pendolino be able to fit

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The obvious answer is some 803s, but with the Huddersfield upgrade, would a Pendolino be able to fit

I wasn't being entirely serious, but DfT did suggest in their ITT for the TPE franchise in 2014 that Pendolinos would be freed up by HS2 and could potentially be redeployed by the TPE franchise.
That was when HS2 was due to open in 2026, and in any case First TPE won the bid with the Nova fleets.
390s are not very suitable for inter-urban services (though arguably they do that in the West Midlands), and their tilt would not be needed for TPE*.
But I can't think of a technical reason why they would not work on the TP route, especially after the current round of upgrades and gauge improvements.
They are no different from 80x really (in fact at 24m car length they are a better fit than the 80x 26m).
Platform length might be a problem at smaller stations.
But time passes and by 2030 they will be almost 30 years old, so maybe not in the reckoning for TPE, who are formulating their own procurement plans for when TRU is complete.

* though the Ordsall Lane-Leeds section is among the twistiest in the north.

 

[may032]

While tilting trains seem to be slightly old hat now, isn’t the Manchester-Leeds part of that route absolutely ideal for them? Still going to be very twisty even after TRU is finished, might it even allow slightly higher line speeds?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

While tilting trains seem to be slightly old hat now, isn’t the Manchester-Leeds part of that route absolutely ideal for them? Still going to be very twisty even after TRU is finished, might it even allow slightly higher line speeds?

Well I agree, but no-one seems to want to promote tilt any more. It would also need the TASS control system which is "obsolete".
Arguably the MML could have benefitted from tilt, also the GW routes in the west country, as well as TP routes.
Alstom do still make tilting trains (the TGV-derived tilting Acela Liberty is being delivered to Amtrak for the NE corridor).

 

[coxxy]

Pendos could of course be used on the Scottish routes, freeing up the 397s for elsewhere..

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Pendos could of course be used on the Scottish routes, freeing up the 397s for elsewhere..

That would unfortunately need yet another round of platform extensions at Manchester Airport (and Oxford Road).

 

[Greybeard33]

That would unfortunately need yet another round of platform extensions at Manchester Airport (and Oxford Road).

Platform extensions at Manchester Airport and Manchester Oxford Road are planned as part of MTF Configuration State 3, before TRU completion.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Platform extensions at Manchester Airport and Manchester Oxford Road are planned as part of MTF Configuration State 3, before TRU completion.

If we need to extend the platforms that much, can't we just punch them through to the other side of the airport onto the WCML? Running onto Liverpool via Runcorn or Birmingham via Crewe would connect the airport better to the surrounding region.

 

[HSTEd]

While tilting trains seem to be slightly old hat now, isn’t the Manchester-Leeds part of that route absolutely ideal for them? Still going to be very twisty even after TRU is finished, might it even allow slightly higher line speeds?

Most of the really windy parts on the west side of the Pennines however, where the line will remain two track.

So its probably too congested for tilting trains to matter, unless we make everything tilt.

But tilting trains have not been particularly operationally succesful in the UK and I expect they will become extinct once the Pendolinos go.

 

[gingertom]

A pendo could be shortened- are 9 or 11 coach units really required to match anticipated demand? Also, what journey time savings could be achieved deploying them, and would the cost of installing TASS equipment justify those time savings?

 

[E27007]

THe TPE route is 70 route-miles with 23 stations , what are the circumstances in which "Tilt" is required, would careful choice of cant / cross-level of the track be adequate for passenger comfort in non-tilting stock over the route?

 

[The Planner]

Platform extensions at Manchester Airport and Manchester Oxford Road are planned as part of MTF Configuration State 3, before TRU completion.

Oxford Road won't be long enough for a Pendo even with the rebuild.

 

[Greybeard33]

Oxford Road won't be long enough for a Pendo even with the rebuild.

The TPE tender for new trains specifies a platform length of 200m, which is presumably compatible with the Oxford Road rebuild. I doubt that cascaded 390s are being considered for TRU.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Prediction: TPE will be given spare 200m HS2 units.

 

[may032]

Prediction: TPE will be given spare 200m HS2 units.

The optics of flashy new trains for the north would certainly be useful for the gov, especially if the scope for NPR gets downgraded (again)! But the reality of 225mph capable trains running at 90mph most of the way is ridiculous!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The optics of flashy new trains for the north would certainly be useful for the gov, especially if the scope for NPR gets downgraded (again)! But the reality of 225mph capable trains running at 90mph most of the way is ridiculous!

It seems ridiculous, but it's a way the full HS2 order could still be made - just deploy them anywhere that needs fast IC layout EMUs. That's why I think it's likely.

It's not like the 80x reach 140mph (their design speed) anywhere on TPE - sub 100mph bimbling is far more usual.

Also fancy "pointy nose bullet trains" are a good sales pitch.

 

[WAO]

Prediction: TPE will be given spare 200m HS2 units.

This is a very good idea, generally. Not only would there be fewer types of stock with more standardisation but the trains would be "upwardly mobile", capable of whatever the Civils and S&T could produce for them. The PR effect would be magic.

This would lead to a 1970's virtuous circle of one improvement triggering another, ECML style. Other lines, such as XC could take note and it's a pity the MML stock is committed.

Can't wait...
WAO

 

[HSTEd]

The optics of flashy new trains for the north would certainly be useful for the gov, especially if the scope for NPR gets downgraded (again)! But the reality of 225mph capable trains running at 90mph most of the way is ridiculous!

They've already got 140mph units, it's all about the marketing!

Also getting out for a now enormously overkill HS2 order

 

[Greybeard33]

Also getting out for a now enormously overkill HS2 order

I thought that the 54 HS2 trains on order were supposed to be sufficient just for the services post Phase 2a, with a follow on order planned for Phase 2b? The only service in the Phase 2a service spec but not in the Phase 1 spec was an hourly Euston to Macclesfield. But now Phase 2a has been cancelled, more trains will be required to provide the same frequency on Euston to Manchester, Liverpool, Lancaster and Glasgow routes, because of the longer journey times.

So why is 54 sets overkill?

 

[may032]

This is a very good idea, generally. Not only would there be fewer types of stock with more standardisation but the trains would be "upwardly mobile", capable of whatever the Civils and S&T could produce for them. The PR effect would be magic.

This would lead to a 1970's virtuous circle of one improvement triggering another, ECML style. Other lines, such as XC could take note and it's a pity the MML stock is committed.

Can't wait...
WAO

Related to another popular thread at the moment, in this instance some of the existing TPE bi-modes could be used to alleviate capacity issues on XC… although hopefully they get their own new stock before the 2030s.

 

[Sorcerer]

But tilting trains have not been particularly operationally succesful in the UK and I expect they will become extinct once the Pendolinos go.

In what way have tilting trains not been operationally successful when they are the workhorse of the WCML InterCity fleet, have arguably improved travel on the routes they serve, and are still going strong today?

 

[HSTEd]

In what way have tilting trains not been operationally successful when they are the workhorse of the WCML InterCity fleet, have arguably improved travel on the routes they serve, and are still going strong today?

A substantial fraction of the notionally tilting trains in the UK have had their tilt mechanisms permanently disabled on account of the limited benefits they provided (the XC Class 221).
Fairly soon the only tilting trains left will be the Class 390s and the ICWC (Intercity West Coast) franchise operator has started ordering non-tilting replacement trains for the previous tilting type.

 

[Sorcerer]

A substantial fraction of the notionally tilting trains in the UK have had their tilt mechanisms permanently disabled on account of the limited benefits they provided.
Fairly soon the only tilting trains left will be the Class 390s and the ICWC (Intercity West Coast) franchise operator has started ordering non-tilting replacement trains for the previous tilting type.

While it is true that CrossCountry disabled the tilting on their 221s for maintenance purposes, the 390s on the West Coast Main Line have still managed to bring down journey times in part thanks to their ability to tilt, and just because Avanti have opted for non-tilting replacements of their 221s that doesn't necessarily prove that tilting trains haven't been operationally successful in the UK, and the 805/807 fleet will still be running at lower speeds. Even if they were cleared to full 125mph running though, that still wouldn't mean titling wasn't operationally successful, just something that has now been rendered redundant.

 

[HSTEd]

I thought that the 54 HS2 trains on order were supposed to be sufficient just for the services post Phase 2a, with a follow on order planned for Phase 2b? The only service in the Phase 2a service spec but not in the Phase 1 spec was an hourly Euston to Macclesfield. But now Phase 2a has been cancelled, more trains will be required to provide the same frequency on Euston to Manchester, Liverpool, Lancaster and Glasgow routes, because of the longer journey times.

So why is 54 sets overkill?

Because we aren't going to get the full Phase 1 service specification, because as it stands it is appearing rather unlikely that HS2 will reach Euston any time soon.
The service pattern will be dominated by a Birmingham-OOC shuttle.

 

[Greybeard33]

Because we aren't going to get the full Phase 1 service specification, because as it stands it is appearing rather unlikely that HS2 will reach Euston any time soon.
The service pattern will be dominated by a Birmingham-OOC shuttle.

HS2 Euston has not (yet) been cancelled. If there is only a delay of a few years before the full fleet is required on HS2, it might not make economic sense to invest in the depot facilities and driver training required to temporarily use part of that fleet on the Transpennine route.

Better to use the surplus sets to replace 390s on the WCML.

 

[may032]

HS2 Euston has not (yet) been cancelled. If there is only a delay of a few years before the full fleet is required on HS2, it might not make economic sense to invest in the depot facilities and driver training required to temporarily use part of that fleet on the Transpennine route.

Better to use the surplus sets to replace 390s on the WCML.

I don’t think Euston will get cancelled, it would be madness. However I do think it’ll be further delayed, maybe opening 5 years after OOC. In which case, the proposals above may make more sense.

 

[E27007]

A substantial fraction of the notionally tilting trains in the UK have had their tilt mechanisms permanently disabled on account of the limited benefits they provided (the XC Class 221).
Fairly soon the only tilting trains left will be the Class 390s and the ICWC (Intercity West Coast) franchise operator has started ordering non-tilting replacement trains for the previous tilting type.

Tilt is good for passenger comfort, it is not free but comes with a price, that price is heavy and uneven wear on the railhead in the curves