What rolling stock could/should replace Transport for Wales' Mark 4 sets, Class 230s and 153 Active Travel sets long-term?

[Zomboid]

Whether it makes money or not, I don't rate the chances of a restaurant car service being retained when the trains are replaced. I suppose there's no reason why a kitchen couldn't be fitted to a 19x or FLIRT, I don't see the design work necessary for that being justifiable or the lease rates on a small fleet of kitchen fitted units being especially favourable. If they go for an AT300 then presumably designs exist and it might be worthwhile to use them, but I don't see

 

[Krokodil]

Whether it makes money or not, I don't rate the chances of a restaurant car service being retained when the trains are replaced. I suppose there's no reason why a kitchen couldn't be fitted to a 19x or FLIRT, I don't see the design work necessary for that being justifiable or the lease rates on a small fleet of kitchen fitted units being especially favourable. If they go for an AT300 then presumably designs exist and it might be worthwhile to use them, but I don't see

If anything I imagine that a small galley capable of serving microwave meals is all you'll get.

 

[D365]

Hitachi has the capability to provide various ’levels’ of catering as seen on the Class 80x fleets.

 

[anthony263]

Why not a new build take from CAF of some mk5 carriages and work with stadler to get them.to work with a class 93/99.
Borderlands line from press release fromtfw it makes me think tfw are going to order their own variant of the 777s

Ad for West Wales and heart of wales line why not a lower geared version of the 197s

 

[Krokodil]

Why not a new build take from CAF of some mk5 carriages and work with stadler to get them.to work with a class 93/99.
Borderlands line from press release fromtfw it makes me think tfw are going to order their own variant of the 777s

Ad for West Wales and heart of wales line why not a lower geared version of the 197s

Anything but CAF! We want something that works.

 

[Mincemeat]

In the spirit of innovation and to promote tourism on the Central Wales Line, a bespoke Stadler manufactured 2 carriage train with large panoramic windows, seats with good legroom, space for bicycles, an accessible toilet and a dedicated area to park a catering trolley to serve light refreshments.

Anyone who has experienced the alpine routes, e.g. between Montreux and Interlaken or Zermatt to St Moritz will testify how the scenery and quality of the trains help sell tickets and attract thousands of visitors each year from across the world.

 

[eldomtom2]

In the spirit of innovation and to promote tourism on the Central Wales Line, a bespoke Stadler manufactured 2 carriage train with large panoramic windows, seats with good legroom, space for bicycles, an accessible toilet and a dedicated area to park a catering trolley to serve light refreshments.

Anyone who has experienced the alpine routes, e.g. between Montreux and Interlaken or Zermatt to St Moritz will testify how the scenery and quality of the trains help sell tickets and attract thousands of visitors each year from across the world.

Would make sense for a lot of the Highland lines as well.

 

[WideRanger]

Or if you want a view, how about this . Underneath, it is a Hitachi AT100 (like the class 385).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Except it's proving popular on tfw and a money spinner so why not?

I'll be honest it's pretty regular that the Mark 4 sets are replaced by a 197 when passengers have paid for First Class. My advice is don't offer First Class if you can't guarantee it.

 

[HSTEd]

I can't see a better solution that simply specifying a Class 231 with appropriate fuel tanks.

 

[D365]

In the spirit of innovation and to promote tourism on the Central Wales Line, a bespoke Stadler manufactured 2 carriage train with large panoramic windows, seats with good legroom, space for bicycles, an accessible toilet and a dedicated area to park a catering trolley to serve light refreshments.

All that within two carriages?!

I can't see a better solution that simply specifying a Class 231 with appropriate fuel tanks.

This proposition is far more likely.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In the spirit of innovation and to promote tourism on the Central Wales Line, a bespoke Stadler manufactured 2 carriage train with large panoramic windows, seats with good legroom, space for bicycles, an accessible toilet and a dedicated area to park a catering trolley to serve light refreshments.

Hilarious. Always nice to see someone with a sense of humour.

 

[signed]

In the spirit of innovation and to promote tourism on the Central Wales Line, a bespoke Stadler manufactured 2 carriage train with large panoramic windows, seats with good legroom, space for bicycles, an accessible toilet and a dedicated area to park a catering trolley to serve light refreshments.

Anyone who has experienced the alpine routes, e.g. between Montreux and Interlaken or Zermatt to St Moritz will testify how the scenery and quality of the trains help sell tickets and attract thousands of visitors each year from across the world.

2 carriages? Any panoramic Swiss train is like 4 carriages at the minimum, usually 6+.

Not that it would be any less unrealistic in the UK

 

[Mincemeat]

2 carriages? Any panoramic Swiss train is like 4 carriages at the minimum, usually 6+.

Not that it would be any less unrealistic in the UK

They don't have the issue of being unable to fit every carriage onto station platforms.... The UK is decades behind most European countries in terms of investment in infrastructure and decent rolling stock

 

[tfw756rider]

Or if you want a view, how about this . Underneath, it is a Hitachi AT100 (like the class 385).

385s are AT200s aren't they?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

385s are AT200s aren't they?

Yes.

 

[eldomtom2]

385s are AT200s aren't they?

Well in any event the AT100/AT200/AT300/AT400 is only used by Hitachi for their exports of A-train derived rolling stock, not their sales to domestic Japanese railways.

 

[WAO]

In an ideal world, we would have a home industry capable of economically refurbishing the Mark 4's for several decades more life, including body corrosion proofing. (they can do it on oil rigs...)

However, in the present world, Cardiff/TfW needs commonality with local premium quality stock, i.e the GWR 800's. These would need to make good use of their Diesel engines but might help encourage some more wiring.

Perhaps they could retain the old seats though!

WAO

 

[Krokodil]

80x would be overkill. They're designed for 140mph operation (with the crumple zones to suit) and the route has just one section of 110mph route.

 

[Topological]

80x would be overkill. They're designed for 140mph operation (with the crumple zones to suit) and the route has just one section of 110mph route.

Though this does beg the question of whether Maliphant could handle more 80x

IF so, then maybe it is not so stupid to have a fleet that interworks with GWR since everything will be the same TOC eventually.

A fleet of 80x running Carmarthen to Manchester would free a lot of 197s. The 197s can then go onto the remaining 15x routes. IF the diagrams then work West Wales could still run from Cardiff as Swanline and extra capacity between Swansea and Carmarthen.

 

[43096]

IF so, then maybe it is not so stupid to have a fleet that interworks with GWR since everything will be the same TOC eventually.

Will it?

Can you show us the proposals to merge TfW into anything else?

 

[Krokodil]

IF so, then maybe it is not so stupid to have a fleet that interworks with GWR since everything will be the same TOC eventually.

Welsh services will not be. If you were looking at joint procurement then you'd be looking at other regional express services ("Alphaline", as was), not a semi-high speed intercity operation. Yes, 80x currently work class 2 stopping trains for GWR, but that was never supposed to happen.

 

[D365]

In an ideal world, we would have a home industry capable of economically refurbishing the Mark 4's for several decades more life, including body corrosion proofing. (they can do it on oil rigs...)

The Mk4 coaches are being repaired. I’m not sure what you mean though about ”economically for several decades more life”.

And, as above, why would a replacement for TfW’s Mk4 consists need to be a Class 80x? There will be a choice of ’regional’ tri-mode and/or battery-electric units available after the Northern, Chiltern and GWR fleet replacement contracts have been awarded.

 

[Topological]

Welsh services will not be. If you were looking at joint procurement then you'd be looking at other regional express services ("Alphaline", as was), not a semi-high speed intercity operation. Yes, 80x currently work class 2 stopping trains for GWR, but that was never supposed to happen.

In such a case then the obvious Marches `TOC' would be in the pool with TPE (which may well bring us back to 80x) as the other end of the route is Manchester and there is space in the depot TPE use there.

However, there is also the GWR Churchward order that could be added to for other units that work in and out of Cardiff.

I am just not sure why there would be any more bespoke fleets added to TfW when essentially there are options for interworking.

All that said, my favoured approach is still 197s.

 

[43096]

In such a case then the obvious Marches `TOC' would be in the pool with TPE (which may well bring us back to 80x) as the other end of the route is Manchester and there is space in the depot TPE use there.

You appear to be posting supposition as fact again.

How do you know there is depot capacity? And which depot are you referring to?

 

[Bob Price]

With the advent of Great British Rail one wonders if procurement across the network may change. For example a bulk order for Northern, Chiltern, Southern (Ukfield) and Marches lines. Likewise a mass order for 150 replacements across the country instead of small piece meal procurement.

 

[JamesT]

With the advent of Great British Rail one wonders if procurement across the network may change. For example a bulk order for Northern, Chiltern, Southern (Ukfield) and Marches lines. Likewise a mass order for 150 replacements across the country instead of small piece meal procurement.

Though as TfW will not be part of GBR, will that make any difference to how they procure trains?

 

[WAO]

The Mk4 coaches are being repaired. I’m not sure what you mean though about ”economically for several decades more life”.

And, as above, why would a replacement for TfW’s Mk4 consists need to be a Class 80x? There will be a choice of ’regional’ tri-mode and/or battery-electric units available after the Northern, Chiltern and GWR fleet replacement contracts have been awarded.

Perhaps because I don't believe in this whole theory of train leasing which has led to fleets of serviceable modern emu's being cut up with TDO's to boot. BR amortised stock over 10 years after which all it had to do was repair it - no lease charge, so it was cascaded to secondary routes too poor to afford newish stock. Also commonality meant interoperability spares availability etc.

Only when stock was obsolete (slammers etc) and maintenance cost more than new capital charges was it disposed of.

Mark 3's are c50 years old I agree, but Mark 4's should still be useful. Too much money is draining out of the railway through lease charges. The Leasco's should just be merchant banks raising capital for new stock, only charging for a mortgage, until it's paid up, when title goes fully to the railway.

WAO

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though as TfW will not be part of GBR, will that make any difference to how they procure trains?

It'll be cheaper for them to tag stuff on than order new.

Are there any options for more 197s or Stadlers on the existing orders? Those are the most obvious option, both do an intercity style product, ideally in a length around 120-150m with proper first class.

 

[D365]

Perhaps because I don't believe in this whole theory of train leasing which has led to fleets of serviceable modern emu's being cut up with TDO's to boot. BR amortised stock over 10 years after which all it had to do was repair it - no lease charge, so it was cascaded to secondary routes too poor to afford newish stock. Also commonality meant interoperability spares availability etc.

Only when stock was obsolete (slammers etc) and maintenance cost more than new capital charges was it disposed of.

EMUs being cut up ahead of time is one thing. But it is well known that ex-BR coaching stock and the remaining ex-BR EMUs/DMUs require significant amounts of corrosion remediation, even if the underlaying technology is still serviceable.