What rolling stock could/should replace Transport for Wales' Mark 4 sets, Class 230s and 153 Active Travel sets long-term?

[Transilien]

The class 197 is an outdated design and are not much different from a turbostar. It's ridiculous that these trains are still being introduced today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would go for a 5 car more intercity-style (but possibly still doors at thirds) Civity to replace the Mk4s but also increase the intercity style fleet, thus cascading 2-car 197s for the Heart of Wales and to get rid of the 230s. All very long distance (Manchester-South Wales and Cardiff-Holyhead) services would be formed of these.

On the 2-car 197s (all of them as otherwise you have a problem when one ends up off the right service) I would remove the catering cupboard and replace it with more bicycle spaces in order to mitigate the loss of the active travel 153s.

 

[tfw756rider]

I would go for a 5 car more intercity-style (but possibly still doors at thirds) Civity to replace the Mk4s but also increase the intercity style fleet, thus cascading 2-car 197s for the Heart of Wales and to get rid of the 230s. All very long distance (Manchester-South Wales and Cardiff-Holyhead) services would be formed of these.

On the 2-car 197s (all of them as otherwise you have a problem when one ends up off the right service) I would remove the catering cupboard and replace it with more bicycle spaces in order to mitigate the loss of the active travel 153s.

I agree, even though I know some people don't like the "just to keep the factory open" option.

 

[The exile]

The class 197 is an outdated design and are not much different from a turbostar. It's ridiculous that these trains are still being introduced today.

Though that is the argumentation that results in micro-fleets. Virtually every design is outdated before the first example has made it into service.

 

[Transilien]

Though that is the argumentation that results in micro-fleets. Virtually every design is outdated before the first example has made it into service.

The 197’s were out of date when they were first ordered through. More Stadler units would be preferable to a micro fleet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 197’s were out of date when they were first ordered through. More Stadler units would be preferable to a micro fleet.

So this is about you preferring the FLIRTS and wanting more of those then, rather than an accurate assessment of the 197 product.

 

[The exile]

The 197’s were out of date when they were first ordered through. More Stadler units would be preferable to a micro fleet.

Which existing design should get a follow-on order will depend on many factors I know too little about. The point I was making was that “it’s an outdated design” on its own is of little consequence. Indeed “outdated design” probably means “is likely to work straight out of the box”. There are reasons why (for example) DB ordered the same S-Bahn units for over 20 years (ET420).

 

[Russel]

The 197’s were out of date when they were first ordered through. More Stadler units would be preferable to a micro fleet.

What makes them out of date and what is the issue with it, if they are?

They are a simple, straight diesel multiple unit built for lines that stand no chance of being wired in the near future.

Yes, they could have been built as Bi-modes, but for how much they actually run in diesel under wires, compared to how long they spend on unwired lines, is it really worth the extra cost and complications?

 

[animationmilo]

Does that mean the 153s that went to Landore will be out more or are they talking about active travel 153s

 

[Brubulus]

What makes them out of date and what is the issue with it, if they are?

They are a simple, straight diesel multiple unit built for lines that stand no chance of being wired in the near future.

Yes, they could have been built as Bi-modes, but for how much they actually run in diesel under wires, compared to how long they spend on unwired lines, is it really worth the extra cost and complications?

Batteries substantially increase efficiency by enabling regenerative braking, and given most 197s run under the wires at some point, it would have been useful, especially when the 755s are bi mode when many never see wires at all.

The 197s are mostly fine, despite the entirely predictable mis-steps regarding Standard Plus and putting the catering cabinet on every single train and making it structural (is this a forum myth?) grates with me.

However the Stadler units seem to have been incredibly reliable, especially when compared with CAF units, and a 6 car FLIRT seems like the obvious choice in my opinion.
HOW can just use 2 car 197s as the 153 replacement.

I can see the argument for 5 car bi-mode 197s or 6 car FLIRTs. It likely comes down to cost and politics, and I can see CAF winning both of those, even if the trains are worse and less reliable.

 

[Transilien]

What makes them out of date and what is the issue with it, if they are?

They are DMUs that can’t run on OHLE, don’t have batteries. This makes them out of date in terms of matching future climate legislation. Also they have a lack of level boarding which makes them inaccessible which is rather outdated in today’s world making public spaces as accessible as possible. All of these problems are shared with the sprinters and turbostars which preceded them. The only difference is that these units are 20-35 years younger and therefore will have to be used for much longer than these other units.

 

[Belperpete]

They are a simple, straight diesel multiple unit built for lines that stand no chance of being wired in the near future.

With atrocious ride quality. I sincerely hope TfW don't order any more of them.

 

[tfw756rider]

With atrocious ride quality. I sincerely hope TfW don't order any more of them.

It's highly unlikely that any more Diesel Multiple Units will be built after the original order of 197s, as new trains that have to be able to run on non-electrified lines are all about multi-mode or battery-electric now.

As for the ride quality, it's not great (and I'm acknowledging that as someone who really likes the 197s)...

...but that's just modern lightweight bogies isn't it... or is it? Would it actually be possible to specify better riding bogies / suspension for any order of multi-mode Civity units (within what parts are currently made, of course)?

 

[390112A]

The class 197 is an outdated design and are not much different from a turbostar. It's ridiculous that these trains are still being introduced today.

Couldn't Agree More.

They are DMUs that can’t run on OHLE, don’t have batteries. This makes them out of date in terms of matching future climate legislation. Also they have a lack of level boarding which makes them inaccessible which is rather outdated in today’s world making public spaces as accessible as possible. All of these problems are shared with the sprinters and turbostars which preceded them. The only difference is that these units are 20-35 years younger and therefore will have to be used for much longer than these other units.

For me they don't even need to be able to run on OHLE. The mistake is they were not built with an Electric Powertrain, as trains younger than them have been such as the 22X fleet.

This is the case for all CAF 19Xs it is especially stupid when you consider the first class built, was the 195 which should have just been a 331 clone but with a diesel engine feeding the traction system rather than AC overhead.
I will never understand why this wasn't done as it would have provided northern with a cheaper and quicker and flexible option to add more EMUs should they need it with Electrification.

Now they have no provision for greener running in the future.
The only cheap alteration will be to convert to Bio-Fuel or 'Zero-Carbon' fuels
Any other conversion would involve costly changes to the traction system making them extremely unlikely to happen, as Project Thor would have been easier and that still didn't happen.

 

[JamesT]

For me they don't even need to be able to run on OHLE. The mistake is they were not built with an Electric Powertrain, as trains younger than them have been such as the 22X fleet.

This is the case for all CAF 19Xs it is especially stupid when you consider the first class built, was the 195 which should have just been a 331 clone but with a diesel engine feeding the traction system rather than AC overhead.
I will never understand why this wasn't done as it would have provided northern with a cheaper and quicker and flexible option to add more EMUs should they need it with Electrification.

Now they have no provision for greener running in the future.
The only cheap alteration will be to convert to Bio-Fuel or 'Zero-Carbon' fuels
Any other conversion would involve costly changes to the traction system making them extremely unlikely to happen, as Project Thor would have been easier and that still didn't happen.

Did CAF have any experience of building a Diesel-Electric previously? The 22X were a different manufacturer and doesn’t necessarily follow that all manufacturers will follow suit. The 22X powertrain is also fairly useless for EMU conversion, as there aren’t any traction power cables between carriages.

Altering the design later to change power supply is very unlikely to be the cheaper option. Buying new EMUs and cascading the 19X to non-electrified lines is going to be far cheaper. 150 diesel units trundling up and down some rural lines in 2050 are not going to end the world.

 

[MikePJ]

Couldn't Agree More.


For me they don't even need to be able to run on OHLE. The mistake is they were not built with an Electric Powertrain, as trains younger than them have been such as the 22X fleet.

This is the case for all CAF 19Xs it is especially stupid when you consider the first class built, was the 195 which should have just been a 331 clone but with a diesel engine feeding the traction system rather than AC overhead.
I will never understand why this wasn't done as it would have provided northern with a cheaper and quicker and flexible option to add more EMUs should they need it with Electrification.

Now they have no provision for greener running in the future.
The only cheap alteration will be to convert to Bio-Fuel or 'Zero-Carbon' fuels
Any other conversion would involve costly changes to the traction system making them extremely unlikely to happen, as Project Thor would have been easier and that still didn't happen.

Diesel-electric transmission is heavier and needs more maintenance than the mechanical transmission on a 197. The 197’s transmission is similar in concept to a car or bus with an automatic gearbox. The 197s needed to have low axle weight to replace the similarly lightweight 158s - that was the main design criterion and so they got mechanical transmission. The 231s are RA4 vs RA1 for the 197s and 158s.