What services are the most crowded and how would you fix it?

[liamf656]

I’m trying to find out what routes and services in Britain are frequently overcrowded (either recently or pre-COVID), and what you would do to fix that, assuming there is no resource limit.

More specifically, I’m looking for three things in your reply:
- What’s the service like normally? What’s the unit allocation and how many coaches is it?
- Is it an individual service or a whole line/route?
- Would you add more services or just lengthen/change the rolling stock, or even both?

By overcrowded, I mean a train that is fully seated and a large number of people also standing, or in extreme cases, people being left behind on platforms. (So a train that has empty seats or is fully seated with no standees does not qualify).
By frequently, I mean same or similar journeys more than once a week, or if we’re talking about a whole route, multiple services that are crowded every day

Note to mods: Please feel free to move this thread into a better place if necessary, I don’t usually post into the forum so I’m still getting used to it!

 

[30907]

The dft publishes (published) a "top 10" every year. The last I can find online is for 2017 and has commentary on each.
The top search result (lacking the detail but for early 2020) seems to show a completely different list, which might suggest that some problems have been resolved (but others have arisen).
https://www.google.com/search?q=mos...droid-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

[Peregrine 4903]

If I remember correctly, the 17:46 London Euston to Crewe operated by LNWR was considered the most overcrowded train service pre-covid. It was an 8 coach 350 and if I remember correctly LNWR did not have enough 350's to increase the length to 12 coaches.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This Department of Transport briefing note may be of interest...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/729221/top-10-overcrowded-trains-2017.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I remember correctly, the 17:46 London Euston to Crewe operated by LNWR was considered the most overcrowded train service pre-covid. It was an 8 coach 350 and if I remember correctly LNWR did not have enough 350's to increase the length to 12 coaches.

It wasn't the number of 350s (that is an issue, but at least some rejigging would be possible), but rather that there is no sensible place to drop 4 off because the Crewes don't go via Northampton. So it was an awkward one to solve. Personally I wouldn't use it when there are loads of other only slightly slower services to MKC, but some MKC commuters do seem to be absolutely obsessed about a couple of minutes here and there and won't even consider an even slightly slower journey in order to get a seat (as most of the 12-car south WCML fasts have at least a few spare seats in the front couple of coaches - most notably in this case the 1752 I found to always have a decent amount of spare capacity).

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It wasn't the number of 350s, but rather that there is no sensible place to drop 4 off because the Crewes don't go via Northampton. So it was an awkward one to solve. Personally I wouldn't use it when there are loads of other only slightly slower services to MKC, but some MKC commuters do seem to be absolutely obsessed about a couple of minutes here and there and won't even consider an even slightly slower journey in order to get a seat (as most of the 12-car south WCML fasts have at least a few spare seats in the front couple of coaches).

I always wonderwed why didn't just catch the train that goes like only 3 minutes later that calls at Leighton Buzzard only. It's still a very fast journey to Milton Keynes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always wonderwed why didn't just catch the train that goes like only 3 minutes later that calls at Leighton Buzzard only. It's still a very fast journey to Milton Keynes.

That's what I'd do. But some people either don't think about such things or are obsessed about saving 5 minutes.

I suppose you could put a "u" on that train at MKC so it doesn't show on the board, which might reduce numbers a bit as occasional users wouldn't end up on it (regular commuters would carry on using it as they know it stops and there isn't really a way to enforce it).

 

[py_megapixel]

An interesting example of how overcrowding was fixed:

I don't remember the exact times, but a few years ago Swindon-Cheltenham services were only extended to London with HSTs and later 9-car IETs on every other hour, with 2/3-car units filling as a shuttle on the other hours. This meant that the 2-car shuttle connecting with the first off-peak train out of London in the evenings was absolutely dire, especially as far as Kemble.

The way this was fixed was by replacing this service pattern with a much simper one - just a 5-car IET every hour, all the way to London. This actually looks like a net loss in capacity through Kemble, Stroud and Stonehouse - average 10 cars per 2 hours rather than 11-12 - however, the overcrowding is much less now because in the past it was mainly on specific 2-car trains, which are now all 5-cars instead (and also the 26m IET carriages have considerably more capacity than the 20m Sprinter ones)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I suppose you could put a "u" on that train at MKC so it doesn't show on the board, which might reduce numbers a bit as occasional users wouldn't end up on it (regular commuters would carry on using it as they know it stops and there isn't really a way to enforce it).

Interesting point. Do onboard revenue protection staff ever 'ching' passengers with a ticket to a particular station, when travelling on a service which is "pick up" only at that station? (Or when boarding a train which is "set down" only at that station)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting point. Do onboard revenue protection staff ever 'ching' passengers with a ticket to a particular station, when travelling on a service which is "pick up" only at that station? (Or when boarding a train which is "set down" only at that station)?

Generally Avanti just won't let you board, but LNR services don't have individual barrier checks at Euston (either just the gateline or nothing at all) nor is there any scope to block it at MKC (as there aren't dedicated platforms) so there's no real scope to do it, and as it's quite busy anyway the guard wouldn't get through.

It'd be more about slightly reducing usage by directing people against it by not showing MKC on the board and journey planners, a bit like the way TPE services are "pick up only" at Bolton towards Scotland but there's nothing to stop anyone travelling anyway if in the know. Some commuters would ignore it, but some are well behaved and wouldn't, so it would reduce it to manageable levels.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably the vast majority of 'set down only' and 'pick up only' calls listed in the national timetable are there with the primary intention of reducing overcrowding (in more 'normal' times) on certain services. Maybe also an attempt to reduce station dwell times on intensively used lines. Any other reasons?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the vast majority of 'set down only' and 'pick up only' calls listed in the national timetable are there with the primary intention of reducing overcrowding (in more 'normal' times) on certain services. Maybe also an attempt to reduce station dwell times on intensively used lines. Any other reasons?

I think it's partly to make accounting simpler at Watford, too. But yes, avoiding long-distance trains being full of short-distance passengers (particularly commuters) is generally the reason.

 

[liamf656]

Thanks to those that supplied the DFT documents, I had a good look through them

Some good points raised ie. the WCML services. Sounds like most people would rather use a packed service than one a few minutes later that’s slightly slower. Maybe the solution would be to encourage the use of quieter, albeit slightly slower services.

I watched a program the other day (on repeat) of a Wigan service leaving people behind at platforms as everyone tried squeezing onto a 150. It focussed on this issue in Manchester, but it leads me on to my side question:

During rush hour (either recently or before covid), which city outside London have you had the worst experience on trains, in terms of overcrowding?

 

[py_megapixel]

During rush hour (either recently or before covid), which city outside London have you had the worst experience on trains, in terms of overcrowding?

I'd say Sheffield. Trains out of there especially towards the west can be absolutely packed.

 

[swt_passenger]

The dft publishes (published) a "top 10" every year. The last I can find online is for 2017 and has commentary on each.
The top search result (lacking the detail but for early 2020) seems to show a completely different list, which might suggest that some problems have been resolved (but others have arisen).
https://www.google.com/search?q=mos...droid-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

That BBC report that a search finds is about the DfT autumn 2019 overcrowding info which was published in Sep 2020. I think the DfT keep moving things and searches don’t necessarily catch up:

Rail passenger numbers and crowding on weekdays in major cities in England and Wales: 2019

Rail passenger numbers and crowding statistics on weekdays across 14 major cities in England and Wales during 2019.

www.gov.uk

So here’s 2 more sets of stats that @liamf656 might find helpful - because there’ll be significant changes even 2017-2019.

Direct link to 2019 info published Sep 2020

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/921331/rail-passengers-crowding-2019.pdf

The DfT 2018 info was published in Jul 2019.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/820770/Rail_Passenger_Numbers_and_Crowding_2018.pdf

 

[Ianno87]

I think it's partly to make accounting simpler at Watford, too. But yes, avoiding long-distance trains being full of short-distance passengers (particularly commuters) is generally the reason.

Also permits early departures from Watford towards Euston in the event of a good run rather than sitting waiting time for no real reason.

 

[swt_passenger]

If I remember correctly, the 17:46 London Euston to Crewe operated by LNWR was considered the most overcrowded train service pre-covid. It was an 8 coach 350 and if I remember correctly LNWR did not have enough 350's to increase the length to 12 coaches.

That was the top of the list in Autumn 2018, so was top in the last stats issued pre-COVID, but the year lag in the reporting means that the most crowded in Autumn 2019 was a Chiltern Oxford to Marylebone service, that appeared in the 2020 report.

Time flies while in lockdown...

I'd say Sheffield. Trains out of there especially towards the west can be absolutely packed.

However the actual reports for 2018 and 2019 suggest there’s nothing significantly bad about Sheffield...