What should be considered 'Inter-City' under GBR?

[Transilien]

Eurostar is EuroCity as opposed to InterCity.

Yes I agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester Airport – Scotland not being IC would solve the issue of Lockerbie and Penrith otherwise only having IC services.

Sorry, I always forget that bit of TPE. It would also be IC.

 

[Krokodil]

Sorry, I always forget that bit of TPE. It would also be IC.

It should have been part of ICWC in the first place

 

[cle]

The semantics of this thread are hilarious. We don't need to ape other naming conventions, none of which are perfect in other countries either.

Urban / Local / Regional / inter city (or whatever name is chosen) - should suffice. You could debate whether short rural branches (e.g. Cornwall, Norfolk) could be classified as urban as they tend to feed into a regional hub or railhead. But doesn't matter too much.

Fact is, anything 80x will be seen as intercity in future, especially post-Pendo - and anything not, won't be. HS2 of course, on top.

Cardiff-Manchester really isn't. It could be, but it's basically a regional train which happens to link two fairly far flung, and not that closely associated cities.

 

[Mgameing123]

That's by far the easiest approach. Rebrand LNER as Intercity then gradually merge-in Avanti and the long distance parts of GWR, EMR and XC as the franchises end.

I would consider a setting up a "Regional Express" brand alongside it for some of the slower services such as London-Lincoln, Avanti's London-Birmingham-Scotland etc, but that's a fairly minor detail.

No premium fares please.

Chiltern is not an InterCity service. It is a secondary route near enough exactly the same in concept to LNR bar being diesel.

On TPE I would say only the Liverpool to Newcastle expresses are IC. The rest is middle tier or regional.

Chiltern Marylebone - Moor Street trains are Intercity. They are fast (only 20 minutes slower than Avanti) but they won’t be branded Intercity Express or Intercity Lightning.

 

[miklcct]

No premium fares please.


Chiltern Marylebone - Moor Street trains are Intercity. They are fast (only 20 minutes slower than Avanti) but they won’t be branded Intercity Express or Intercity Lightning.

I don't see how Marylebone - Moor Street trains are intercity. They are at most Regional Express. They are regional trains which call at so many places along the route which are not anywhere resembling cities or large towns.

Avanti takes 1h16 from London to Birmingham but Chiltern takes 1h57, so it is 41 minutes slower. Chiltern trains call at High Wycombe, Bicester North, Dorridge, etc. which are just small towns or even villages.

 

[WestCoast]

You could also considering using InterRegional Express for a category of service between Regional Express and InterCity as exists in some parts of Germany.

 

[Krokodil]

Cardiff-Manchester really isn't. It could be, but it's basically a regional train which happens to link two fairly far flung, and not that closely associated cities.

It used to be a regional train (and for the tine being services operated by 197s very much still are) but on alternate hours the rolling stock has been upgraded to include full catering and First Class accommodation for the likes of business travellers. It's as much an Intercity service as certain 80x/Voyager/Pendo routes are.

 

[cle]

It used to be a regional train (and for the tine being services operated by 197s very much still are) but on alternate hours the rolling stock has been upgraded to include full catering and First Class accommodation for the likes of business travellers. It's as much an Intercity service as certain 80x/Voyager/Pendo routes are.

I know which stock uses it. Chiltern B'ham was once the same - but then the stops all crept back in, and it became its commuter former self. With tewo big cities on either end. Cardiff-Manc is the same, actually - just stretched and more rural in the middle.

I don't think we can say that just because there is a loco + coaches consist, it would classify as an inter city route in future GBR / today. The stopping pattern has barely changed, nor have journey times. It's still a very regional, secondary service.

 

[Krokodil]

I know which stock uses it. Chiltern B'ham was once the same - but then the stops all crept back in, and it became its commuter former self. With tewo big cities on either end. Cardiff-Manc is the same, actually - just stretched and more rural in the middle.

I don't think we can say that just because there is a loco + coaches consist, it would classify as an inter city route in future GBR / today. The stopping pattern has barely changed, nor have journey times. It's still a very regional, secondary service.

But the service offered (first class, catering etc.) is geared towards attracting business travel on what is TfW's most profitable route.

 

[Mgameing123]

I don't see how Marylebone - Moor Street trains are intercity. They are at most Regional Express. They are regional trains which call at so many places along the route which are not anywhere resembling cities or large towns.

Avanti takes 1h16 from London to Birmingham but Chiltern takes 1h57, so it is 41 minutes slower. Chiltern trains call at High Wycombe, Bicester North, Dorridge, etc. which are just small towns or even villages.

It would probs fill the Danish requirement but you’re right. It’s definitely going to be an RX train.

 

[FGWHST43009]

I don't see how Marylebone - Moor Street trains are intercity. They are at most Regional Express. They are regional trains which call at so many places along the route which are not anywhere resembling cities or large towns.

Avanti takes 1h16 from London to Birmingham but Chiltern takes 1h57, so it is 41 minutes slower. Chiltern trains call at High Wycombe, Bicester North, Dorridge, etc. which are just small towns or even villages.

Would the same principle be applied to all services that will be IC? What would be the criteria for a station to be served by IC trains? For example, you could have 2 London-Swansea trains, 1 IC calling at Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central and Swansea with an IR calling at Reading, Didcot Parkway, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath and Swansea.

 

[miklcct]

Would the same principle be applied to all services that will be IC? What would be the criteria for a station to be served by IC trains? For example, you could have 2 London-Swansea trains, 1 IC calling at Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central and Swansea with an IR calling at Reading, Didcot Parkway, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath and Swansea.

In these cases both should be IC, because the minor stations serve just the minority of the passengers. In the Chiltern example, most flows are for intermediate towns and villages, rather than end to end.

Waterloo - Weymouth and Exeter should be IR (at least west of Southampton) because there are significant flows for small stations west of Southampton, while Liverpool Street - Norwich should be IC.

King's Cross - Kings Lynn should be IC as well at least between London and Cambridge.

 

[renegademaster]

All the arguments in the thread over wether a particular service is intercity or not just highlights the futility of the categories. All it will mean is some services will see a fare jump because someones urge to put everything in boxes. Each service has unique circumstances and should be treated individually.

I dont buy the marketing utility argument ,since most of our trains are allready pretty full without much coherent advertising.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the same principle be applied to all services that will be IC? What would be the criteria for a station to be served by IC trains? For example, you could have 2 London-Swansea trains, 1 IC calling at Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central and Swansea with an IR calling at Reading, Didcot Parkway, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath and Swansea.

If we look at most of Europe it's not some dogmatic "can't call at towns" nonsense (nor was BR, after all) but a service proposition - a reasonably fast train with a known level of comfort and on-board service e.g. catering.

This has value - and EMR agree, for what it's worth as they use it - otherwise you end up with things like XC where you can have wildly different levels of service under the same brand. If you look at something like LNER or Avanti it's fairly consistent (aside from the time-of-day First Class service differentiation), for instance.

Thus does it matter if an IC calls all stations between Warrington and Preston? Clearly not.

 

[renegademaster]

otherwise you end up with things like XC where you can have wildly different levels of service

But is the differences of service level an actual issue though, in the age of Google maps and Trainline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But is the differences of service level an actual issue though, in the age of Google maps and Trainline?

Yes. Expectations about the product you've purchased are important. You're creating a brand that carries brand values in both soft and hard product - the railway does this rather randomly at present, almost no other business does.

I'm not sure what Google Maps and Trainline tell you about the quality of the seating for instance.

 

[miklcct]

Yes. Expectations about the product you've purchased are important. You're creating a brand that carries brand values in both soft and hard product - the railway does this rather randomly at present, almost no other business does.

I'm not sure what Google Maps and Trainline tell you about the quality of the seating for instance.

XC does not imply anything about its service level. The brand only means an intercity service without going through London.

 

[Krokodil]

But is the differences of service level an actual issue though, in the age of Google maps and Trainline?

If the government wants to continue with the Ryanairisation of long-distance services then no because there will be no facilities to differentiate and the only difference between a pointy train and a not-pointy train is that one is faster than the other.

For passengers who want certain facilities on a long-distance journey, then branding does help.

There are other ways of course. In Europe a train number is usually advertised and its prefix easily identifies the class of train. Reorganising the RSID codes for UK trains and including them in timetable data would help achieve the same end.

 

[AndrewE]

Thus does it matter if an IC calls all stations between Warrington and Preston? Clearly not.

Of course it does matter. If it stops at places like Leyland or Euxton (and Golborne one day) then you are seriously going to piss off people who thought they were on an Intercity Train from London or Brum to Carlisle or Glasgow. You wouldn't advocate all trains calling at all stops on the Trent valley?

In the same way that you wouldn't be very happy if you were driving 150 miles on a motorway and you were required to pull off at every single junction and make a phone call before continuing...

If there was a better inter-regional service of semi-fasts I would support cutting calls on the "top" WCML trains to Crewe, Preston and Carlisle. As it is, we have all trains filling in for the missing tier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course it does matter. If it stops at places like Leyland or Euxton (and Golborne one day) then you are seriously going to piss off people who thought they were on an Intercity Train from London or Brum to Carlisle or Glasgow. You wouldn't advocate all trains calling at all stops on the Trent valley?

Sorry, I forget Leyland and Balshaw Lane. Imagine those didn't exist and you'll get my point.

If there was a better inter-regional service of semi-fasts I would support cutting calls on the "top" WCML trains to Crewe, Preston and Carlisle. As it is, we have all trains filling in for the missing tier.

The via Birmingham service could provide this (taking away London trains entirely would not be popular), but it's the slightly messy thing it is because that's how the paths work. I'd love to see a proper Nord-West-Takt but it wouldn't fit on the double track line with all the other pressures on it.

Indeed that service does highlight some issues that getting too picky about it would pose. IC to Birmingham New St thence IR?

I think realistically everything Avanti West Coast operate would be IC except the Birmingham semifast, and similarly everything LNER operate except the York semifast, unless we were to give them an "IC+" or something for the superfast Edinburgh.

 

[A S Leib]

If there was a better inter-regional service of semi-fasts I would support cutting calls on the "top" WCML trains to Crewe, Preston and Carlisle. As it is, we have all trains filling in for the missing tier.

That was the plan for HS2; 2 tph from Euston to Glasgow / Edinburgh via Old Oak Common, Birmingham International (1 tph), Preston and Carlisle, then dividing and nonstop to Glasgow Central or Haymarket.

 

[lkpridgeon]

I would roll "intercity" under the current cross-country brand. I prefer that as a concept to intercity/interurban. The actual services operated by the area sector with it mainly just being a branding exercise. No GBR national brand, regional sector based branding.

I would include, LNER, TPE, XC, AVANTI and GWR (mainline services from Paddington) under the new "Cross Country" brand. Not sure about EMR (mainline). I would like to keep midland as it's own thing same for SWR, GA and SE long distance. A regional brand seems to work well for them.

Could take a leaf out of Canadas book and have a Go transit like brand. "Go South East", "Go South West", "Go North" (maybe not the last one).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could take a leaf out of Canadas book and have a Go transit like brand. "Go South East", "Go South West", "Go North" (maybe not the last one).

I think the Go-Ahead Group would have something to say about that.

 

[Djgr]

All the arguments in the thread over wether a particular service is intercity or not just highlights the futility of the categories. All it will mean is some services will see a fare jump because someones urge to put everything in boxes. Each service has unique circumstances and should be treated individually.

I dont buy the marketing utility argument ,since most of our trains are allready pretty full without much coherent advertising.

When the TOCs and their "brands" vanish, there are three choices.

You either a) call all the trains nothing "the train", b) call all the trains "Great British Railways" or c) provide them with useful subcategories for customers-the most obvious ones being 1)Inter-City/Fast/Express, 2) Regional, 3) Urban/Metro.

 

[renegademaster]

When the TOCs and their "brands" vanish, there are three choices.

You either a) call all the trains nothing "the train", b) call all the trains "Great British Railways" or c) provide them with useful subcategories for customers-the most obvious ones being 1)Inter-City/Fast/Express, 2) Regional, 3) Urban/Metro.

Lots of services dont neatly fit those subcategories , either your going to create extra confusion and layers for customers to worry about, or you will see GBR taking an axe to services that dont fit into any silo. Having tickets that are only valid for a certain class create anxiety for customers , not helping them.

If the government wants to continue with the Ryanairisation of long-distance services

Who knows what they want to do really? Thr goverment that has pushed LNER to its current state is gone, and we have a new one keeping their cards close to their chest , or most likely , dont know what they want.

 

[Krokodil]

Having tickets that are only valid for a certain class create anxiety for customers , not helping them.

Even if you do have some differentiation that doesn‘t necessitate that there should be different prices. A standard class ticket from A to B is still a standard class ticket from A to B. Provision of a buffet doesn‘t mean that passengers get charged extra unless they actually buy something from it, likewise the provision of First Class accommodation on a given train doesn‘t increase the price for those passengers who remain in Standard.

 

[AndrewE]

Lots of services dont neatly fit those subcategories , either your going to create extra confusion and layers for customers to worry about, or you will see GBR taking an axe to services that dont fit into any silo. Having tickets that are only valid for a certain class create anxiety for customers , not helping them.

one "class" (train type) or one operator tickets are the first thing that should be abolished anyway. The railway offers a network and most "inter-city" journeys will not be solely between main stations, so cost-effective no-hassle "add-ons" for each end of the trunk haul are essential. They should also include travel on bus/tram networks too so that it's seen as an easy option to take.

Our railways are one of the tools that we have to get people out of their cars and it needs to be a tempting offer.

 

[JonathanH]

Thr goverment that has pushed LNER to its current state is gone, and we have a new one keeping their cards close to their chest , or most likely , dont know what they want.

The government is irrelevant. The industry, DfT and Treasury are probably comfortable with the state of LNER, and will present that to the government as a favoured model for the operation of similar parts of the railway.

 

[Manutd1999]

I think realistically everything Avanti West Coast operate would be IC except the Birmingham semifast, and similarly everything LNER operate except the York semifast, unless we were to give them an "IC+" or something for the superfast Edinburgh.

That's where the Intercity Express brand could be useful. All the LNER services would be Intercity due to the route lengths, destinations and rolling stock. "Intercity Express" would be applied to highlight the fastest services