What should be done with Crossrail 2?

[PR1Berske]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-opening-delayed-opening-date-not-yet-known.169160/

Latest update now says it will be the first half of 2022 before the central Section opens.

Welcome to Crossrail

Crossrail Ltd has delivered the Elizabeth line - a new railway for London and the South East, running from Reading and Heathrow in the west, through 42km of new tunnels under London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. The Elizabeth line has 41 accessible stations including 10 major new...

www.crossrail.co.uk

What this does to Crossrail 2 seems rather obvious...

 

[theironroad]

What this does to Crossrail 2 seems rather obvious...

Whether the WFH trend will have faded away (along with covid hopefully) by the time cross rail 2 would be ready and numbers travelling into central London recover to the expectations that warranted crossrail2 is the question I guess, but can't imagine at the amount CR1 is costing whether it will even be progressed.

 

[Robertj21a]

Whether the WFH trend will have faded away (along with covid hopefully) by the time cross rail 2 would be ready and numbers travelling into central London recover to the expectations that warranted crossrail2 is the question I guess, but can't imagine at the amount CR1 is costing whether it will even be progressed.

Hopefully, increased WFH will become permanent and so reduce the pressure on London's public transport.

 

[jfowkes]

Will CR2 have the same signalling issues that Crossrail has? I know those haven't been the only issues, but signalling and especially EMC issues in the Heathrow tunnels seem to have been responsible for a lot of the overruns and delays.

I guess the CR2 core would still have CBTC in the core, but hopefully with simpler interfaces where it meets the existing network, and lessons learnt from CR1.

 

[Domh245]

I guess the CR2 core would still have CBTC in the core, but hopefully with simpler interfaces where it meets the existing network, and lessons learnt from CR1.

If Thameslink can prove it's ERTMS ATO setup then they should be able to get away with just 'classic' AWS/TPWS and ERTMS without introducing a third signalling system to the mix. Add in the fact that by the time CR2 is approaching the signalling integration phase there's a decent chance that all the existing legs of the route will have been fitted with ERTMS as well

 

[glbotu]

Will CR2 have the same signalling issues that Crossrail has? I know those haven't been the only issues, but signalling and especially EMC issues in the Heathrow tunnels seem to have been responsible for a lot of the overruns and delays.

I guess the CR2 core would still have CBTC in the core, but hopefully with simpler interfaces where it meets the existing network, and lessons learnt from CR1.

I make this post not knowing how planning on CR2 has progressed up to now, but you could probably build all of CR2 segregated.

My understanding is that CR2 adds an extra pair of tracks along the SWML between New Malden and Wimbledon where all its branches are to a segregated station at Twickenham, Shepperton, Chessington and Epsom, as well as adding a pair of tracks from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne - where it would terminate. Given that, other than a basic interface to get trains on and off the line, the entirety of CR2 could be on its own tracks, like a "proper" metro, rather than interfacing with existing systems.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will CR2 have the same signalling issues that Crossrail has? I know those haven't been the only issues, but signalling and especially EMC issues in the Heathrow tunnels seem to have been responsible for a lot of the overruns and delays.

I guess the CR2 core would still have CBTC in the core, but hopefully with simpler interfaces where it meets the existing network, and lessons learnt from CR1.

It’s ETCS on CR2, if it happens.

I make this post not knowing how planning on CR2 has progressed up to now, but you could probably build all of CR2 segregated.

My understanding is that CR2 adds an extra pair of tracks along the SWML between New Malden and Wimbledon where all its branches are to a segregated station at Twickenham, Shepperton, Chessington and Epsom, as well as adding a pair of tracks from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne - where it would terminate. Given that, other than a basic interface to get trains on and off the line, the entirety of CR2 could be on its own tracks, like a "proper" metro, rather than interfacing with existing systems.

But the services aren’t segregated. There will still be Waterloo services to Epsom and Kingston, and services ex Stratford up the WAML ‘slow’ lines, and possibly beyond to Hertford. But with everything on ETCS it’s not a problem anyway.

 

[si404]

There will still be Waterloo services to Epsom and Kingston

Indeed, though Kingston certainly wasn't the original plan and certainly the SW branches can be worked so that they are isolated if there was the will to do so.

and services ex Stratford up the WAML ‘slow’ lines

Including freight.

 

[Class 170101]

But the services aren’t segregated. There will still be Waterloo services to Epsom and Kingston, and services ex Stratford up the WAML ‘slow’ lines, and possibly beyond to Hertford. But with everything on ETCS it’s not a problem anyway.

Surely services on CR2 at the West Anglia will be segregated simply because there is no room on the existing tracks for CR2 services. (There isn't enough room for more trains now).

 

[si404]

Surely services on CR2 at the West Anglia will be segregated simply because there is no room on the existing tracks for CR2 services. (There isn't enough room for more trains now).

The line will* be 4-tracked, with fasts (and freight) on one pair, and stoppers to SW London and Stratford on the other pair. It's those Stratford stoppers Bald Rick is talking about.

*well, should CR2 happen after this debacle with this similar giga project, and with post-COVID issues as well.

 

[Class 170101]

The line will is planned to be be 4-tracked, with fasts (and Freight) on one pair, and stoppers to SW London and Stratford on the other pair. It's those Stratford stoppers Bald Rick is talking about.

I'd stick them on the slow lines as well as CR2 is apparently having a branch towards New Southgate so there should be space for a few services to / from Stratford and I'd extend CR2 services to Hertford East to allow West Anglia to focus on Stansted and Cambridge services.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd stick them on the slow lines as well as CR2 is apparently having a branch towards New Southgate so there should be space for a few services to / from Stratford and I'd extend CR2 services to Hertford East to allow West Anglia to focus on Stansted and Cambridge services.

Trouble with Crossrail 2 to Hertford is that it is a notable deterioration in service for Ware and Hertford. Not much improvement in frequency, but longer journey time, albeit better connectivity.

Better to stop CR2 at Broxbourne, save the cash involved to get to Hertford, and then the
Hertford services can use the freed up space on the fasts to have a much shorter journey time to London, and provide extra capacity to Broxbourne and Cheshunt to London where it is most needed.

 

[Geogregor]

Not a happy place and any thought of CR2 is way off the agenda now.

CR2 was off the agenda as soon as lockdown was announced and work from home pretty much mandated. We won't see any new rail in London for a very long time (bar HS2), if ever.

Anyway, looking at all the problems with integrating multiple signalling systems some people might favour extending tube lines, no need to meddle with the existing messy rail infrastructure.

 

[Class 170101]

Trouble with Crossrail 2 to Hertford is that it is a notable deterioration I need service for Ware and Hertford. Not much improvement in frequency and longer journey time, albeit better connectivity.

Better to stop CR2 at Broxbourne, save the cash involved to get to Hertford, and then the
Hertford services can use the freed up space on the fasts to have a much shorter journey time to London, and provide extra capacity to Broxbourne and Cheshunt to London where it is most needed.

But might be a better way to secure more services for both Hertford and Harlow (and stations north there of).

 

[Bald Rick]

But might be a better way to secure more services for both Hertford and Harlow (and stations north there of).

How would it mean more services at Harlow?

 

[Class 170101]

How would it mean more services at Harlow?

Current Liverpool Street to Hertford services diverted to Harlow and Hertford plugged into Crossrail 2.

 

[Bald Rick]

Current Liverpool Street to Hertford services diverted to Harlow and Hertford plugged into Crossrail 2.

But that means Hertford customers get a slower service, and the extra services to Harlow are no quicker than today. Net result is that some people haave slower journeys. Better to give Hertford passengers quicker services, which takes people off the Harlow services (from Cheshunt and Broxbourne, who have more quicker services) and then Harlow passengers can continue to use the existing fast services? Net result is that some people have wuicker journeys.

And the significant benefit that there is no need to spend any money sorting out any of the level crossings betwee Broxbourne and Hertford / Harlow, or create a turnback facility at the latter.

Anyone would think that the people developing these projects think through these things....

 

[Class 170101]

But that means Hertford customers get a slower service, and the extra services to Harlow are no quicker than today. Net result is that some people haave slower journeys. Better to give Hertford passengers quicker services, which takes people off the Harlow services (from Cheshunt and Broxbourne, who have more quicker services) and then Harlow passengers can continue to use the existing fast services? Net result is that some people have wuicker journeys.

And the significant benefit that there is no need to spend any money sorting out any of the level crossings betwee Broxbourne and Hertford / Harlow, or create a turnback facility at the latter.

Anyone would think that the people developing these projects think through these things....

Can't give everyone what they want I'm afraid.

The West Anglia is a significant area of growth including Stansted Airport (despite Easy Jet withdrawal and Coronavirus)

I would say Hertford services for Crossrail 2 with interchange available at Broxbourne / Cheshunt if they want faster services into London. Meaning non-crossrail line services to Harlow and northwards with released capacity (ie no Hertfords). The non crossrail lines will remain at the same number of paths per hour as now to Liverpool Street because there is no capacity for more between Clapton Jn and Hackney Downs.

There might be scope for extra 'fast' services to run to Stratford but that depends on the length of Platforms 11 and 12 there and I can also see a scenario where TfL would want to run extra services between Stratford and the Lea Valley Stations to improve links there which would probably have better value if the trains fit the platforms (which Class 710s as eight cars almost certainly do).

 

[Bald Rick]

Can't give everyone what they want I'm afraid.

The West Anglia is a significant area of growth including Stansted Airport (despite Easy Jet withdrawal and Coronavirus)

I would say Hertford services for Crossrail 2 with interchange available at Broxbourne / Cheshunt if they want faster services into London. Meaning non-crossrail line services to Harlow and northwards with released capacity (ie no Hertfords). The non crossrail lines will remain at the same number of paths per hour as now to Liverpool Street because there is no capacity for more between Clapton Jn and Hackney Downs.

There might be scope for extra 'fast' services to run to Stratford but that depends on the length of Platforms 11 and 12 there and I can also see a scenario where TfL would want to run extra services between Stratford and the Lea Valley Stations to improve links there which would probably have better value if the trains fit the platforms (which Class 710s as eight cars almost certainly do).

It’s not about giving everyone what they want. It’s about delivering th best benefit for the least cost.

Although, at present, this is all rather academic.

 

[Roast Veg]

I would suggest that it be rebuilt under a rebrand. Thameslink 2? NESW link? Something to distance it from its predecessor.

 

[The Ham]

I would suggest that it be rebuilt under a rebrand. Thameslink 2? NESW link? Something to distance it from its predecessor.

A good idea.

Although, as I've said elsewhere part of the issue we have is that we try to get each project to do too much and too late (as often there's already much congestion when it starts to get planned). As such we should have been just finishing Crossrail 2 rather than just the original.

 

[Ianno87]

I would suggest that it be rebuilt under a rebrand. Thameslink 2? NESW link? Something to distance it from its predecessor.

When Crossrail eventually opens, I sense the difficulties will get forgotten about quickly, and people will be wanting another one...

 

[jfisher21]

Yes put it on pause for a couple of years at least and then start thinking about it!

 

[londonteacher]

Could the Broxbourne services not go onto Crossrail 1? They could enter the system at Pudding Mill. The service pattern could then be split between Broxbourne, Abbey Wood and Stratford with 8tph each?

 

[London Trains]

Could the Broxbourne services not go onto Crossrail 1? They could enter the system at Pudding Mill. The service pattern could then be split between Broxbourne, Abbey Wood and Stratford with 8tph each?

Physically it would be possible, but all the paths on the eastern side are already used (unlike the western side where half terminate at Paddington). Even with lower demand post COVID, the first things to be removed would be the peak extras into Liverpool Street mainline station.

 

[Ianno87]

Could the Broxbourne services not go onto Crossrail 1? They could enter the system at Pudding Mill. The service pattern could then be split between Broxbourne, Abbey Wood and Stratford with 8tph each?

1) Horrendous flat crossing move across the GEML at Stratford (EDIT: And no physical crossovers exist to do so)
2) You still need to 4 track Coppermill Jn - Broxbourne and consider the interaction with Orient Way sidings ECS moves
3) You're taking paths off Shenfield and Abbey Wood services; Canary Wharf (who contributed to the cost for Crossrail) would be a train every 7.5 minutes rather than a train every 5 minutes
4) Extra branch drives less reliability
5) More trains, depot space, etc. required.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Some questions:

1. Does CR2 have to be a Crossrail? Could it not be a Clapham Junction to Dalston tube line?
2. If it does have to be a Crossrail, would a simple Clapham Junction to Kings Cross tunnel be any better-taking over the Moorgate to WGC line? It would save the costs of going via Tooting, Chelsea and Angel
3. Ideally, wouldn't a combination of a Chenley tube and CR2 through the City be any better? I know there is no space under the City, but is this the case even for a North/South facing station between Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street-avoiding the Bank station complex?

 

[Bald Rick]

Physically it would be possible,

Not without rebuilding Stratford and cancelling a lot of existing train services on the GAML and Elizabeth line.

 

[Roast Veg]

When Crossrail eventually opens, I sense the difficulties will get forgotten about quickly, and people will be wanting another one...

In the interests of avoiding delay I'd definitely consider a rebrand - with the speed CR1 is going I'd imagine it'd come first.

 

[Wolfie]

Some questions:

1. Does CR2 have to be a Crossrail? Could it not be a Clapham Junction to Dalston tube line?
2. If it does have to be a Crossrail, would a simple Clapham Junction to Kings Cross tunnel be any better-taking over the Moorgate to WGC line? It would save the costs of going via Tooting, Chelsea and Angel
3. Ideally, wouldn't a combination of a Chenley tube and CR2 through the City be any better? I know there is no space under the City, but is this the case even for a North/South facing station between Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street-avoiding the Bank station complex?

Losing a lot of the benefits, and if you para 3 suggestion was taken, probably not saving any money.