What should the role of the CLC line be?

[Purple Orange]

Are the Nottingham and Cleethorpes trains running to Liverpool necessarily sacrosanct?
Couldn't they, assuming portion working is not practical, terminate in the Picadilly trainshed until such time as a recast or whatnot allows them to run to the Chat Moss?

But my point is that by removing the CLC line from the Castlefield junction complex (at least in terms of regular passenger trains), you simplify diagraming of the entire area, and may make options that are currently impossible possible that could allow for some more trains over the section in question.

It fundamentally changes the entire railway environment in the area, so I don't think its possible to just look at today's reality and say that it necessarily holds afterwards.

At one point, before the notion of the Cleethorpes service was redirected, I recall it being suggested that Nottingham trains should terminate at Piccadilly. I would go for that option, on the basis of Liverpool-Sheffield flows being rather small anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only viable way to remove the CLC from Castlefield is to Metrolink it. A station near Deansgate is simply not useful and removes a lot of connectivity benefits. Usage would go through the floor.

It is the only west-of-Manchester line that can't go to Victoria, and thus it should get "first dibs" on Castlefield paths, at least as far as Oxford Road.

 

[Purple Orange]

The only viable way to remove the CLC from Castlefield is to Metrolink it. A station near Deansgate is simply not useful and removes a lot of connectivity benefits. Usage would go through the floor.

It is the only west-of-Manchester line that can't go to Victoria, and thus it should get "first dibs" on Castlefield paths, at least as far as Oxford Road.

As it is the only line that can’t go to Victoria, all services should go to Piccadilly and onwards.

 

[Fokx]

That’s because Halewood doesn’t have Merseyrail. Based on December 2019 timetables, Hunts Cross had 5tph serving it compared to Halewood which only had 1tph. It shows that people are more likely to gravitate to stations with a turn up and go service than nearby ones which don’t.

What Halewood does have however is an extremely well connected, frequent and variating bus services, particularly to the City and suburbs which is something which Hunts Cross lacks.

Why wait 60 minutes (or even a Merseyrail 15 minutes) for a train to Liverpool when you’ve got a bus every 3 minutes from round the corner?

 

[Gareth]

Although they take an age in rush hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What Halewood does have however is an extremely well connected, frequent and variating bus services, particularly to the City and suburbs which is something which Hunts Cross lacks.

Why wait 60 minutes (or even a Merseyrail 15 minutes) for a train to Liverpool when you’ve got a bus every 3 minutes from round the corner?

But who would use a bus if they have a decent railway? It's been demonstrated that the rollout of Metrolink has basically killed bus services, even where those buses would be quicker (parts of the grindingly slow Eccles line).

Stick a 4tph Merseyrail style EMU service on it and those bus services will quickly ramp back to the bare basics.

 

[py_megapixel]

But who would use a bus if they have a decent railway? It's been demonstrated that the rollout of Metrolink has basically killed bus services, even where those buses would be quicker (parts of the grindingly slow Eccles line).

Stick a 4tph Merseyrail style EMU service on it and those bus services will quickly ramp back to the bare basics.

But look at south Manchester. Metrolink to Didsbury and the Airport hasn't exactly killed off the 142 or the 43, has it? In fact Stagecoach still sends the buses from further afield round that way, even though they would be faster if they ran fast from Didsbury via the Kingsway.

TfGM does have this ridiculous issue of handing out passes which give free travel on third party operated buses but not on their own trams. Maybe this will be fixed if bus franchising allows a shake-up of the system, though I'm not hopeful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But look at south Manchester. Metrolink to Didsbury and the Airport hasn't exactly killed off the 142 or the 43, has it? In fact Stagecoach still sends the buses from further afield round that way, even though they would be faster if they ran fast from Didsbury via the Kingsway.

The 42 and the 43 are mostly about the Wilmslow Road corridor (where, ridiculously, there is no tram), and Parrs Wood is just a convenient place to turn them round. I bet hardly anyone uses the bus for Parrs Wood/Didsbury Village to the city centre now.

 

[HSTEd]

But look at south Manchester. Metrolink to Didsbury and the Airport hasn't exactly killed off the 142 or the 43, has it? In fact Stagecoach still sends the buses from further afield round that way, even though they would be faster if they ran fast from Didsbury via the Kingsway.

The x4x bus corridor is sustained by University traffic more than anything.

If you travel south of Fallowfield number of people on the buses goes off a cliff.

 

[cle]

The x4x bus corridor is sustained by University traffic more than anything.

If you travel south of Fallowfield number of people on the buses goes off a cliff.

I wouldn’t quite say off a cliff!
Withington, Didsbury Village and West Didsbury are all full of students, staff and other users of those routes - the busiest anywhere, even below Owens Park

 

[Purple Orange]

I wouldn’t quite say off a cliff!
Withington, Didsbury Village and West Didsbury are all full of students, staff and other users of those routes - the busiest anywhere, even below Owens Park

Id say it is fare to say that public transport usage across that area is strong enough to sustain trams, trains and buses. Higher train frequency could probably be had too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn’t quite say off a cliff!
Withington, Didsbury Village and West Didsbury are all full of students, staff and other users of those routes - the busiest anywhere, even below Owens Park

Didsbury Village full of students? Must be posh ones.

Either way, the point stands - Parrs Wood is just a convenient turnaround, and the x4x routes are not really in competition with Metrolink.

 

[TheGrew]

Even though these days I live on the Chat Moss line my wife used to commute on CLC and I have colleagues who still do commute on it.
If I were to go full crayonista I think I would love to see:

• Electrification at 25kV throughout
• Manchester - Irlam given over to Metrolink Tram-Train operation I think the first 'heavy' rail stop should be Irlam. I would love to see 'proper' Metrolink but the alignment can't realistically support 4 tracks.
• New passing loop somewhere in the middle, either by building south of Birchwood (where there is just a field) or by moving Warrington Central further east (towards the roundabout) where it wouldn't be quite as space constrained.
• Extend Merseyrail to Widnes (using 25Kv, no new 750v DC required!)
• 2tph stoppers calling at Oxford Road, Irlam, Glazebrook, Birchwood, Padgate, Warrington Central, Warrington West, Sankey for Penketh, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street
• 2tph fasts calling at Oxford Road, Birchwoood, Warrington Central, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Closure of Glazebrook? I'd keep it and develop the area.

 

[TheGrew]

Apologies, didn't mean to drop Glazebrook (I have added it back into my list). I think it is quite a useful station for a fair few people but needs much better parking provision.
A more accessible Glazebrook would give an alternative to Birchwood for those in Culcheth, I also think Fir Street should be extended over the Glaze Brook to Glazebrook Lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies, didn't mean to drop Glazebrook (I have added it back into my list). I think it is quite a useful station for a fair few people but needs much better parking provision.
A more accessible Glazebrook would give an alternative to Birchwood for those in Culcheth, I also think Fir Street should be extended over the Glaze Brook to Glazebrook Lane.

Yes, I think it'd be much better used if there was a road (or at least foot and cycle) connection to west Cadishead, which it's right next to!

(Edit: removed "for Cadishead", that was Irlam)

 

[cle]

Even though these days I live on the Chat Moss line my wife used to commute on CLC and I have colleagues who still do commute on it.
If I were to go full crayonista I think I would love to see:

• Electrification at 25kV throughout
• Manchester - Irlam given over to Metrolink Tram-Train operation I think the first 'heavy' rail stop should be Irlam. I would love to see 'proper' Metrolink but the alignment can't realistically support 4 tracks.
• New passing loop somewhere in the middle, either by building south of Birchwood (where there is just a field) or by moving Warrington Central further east (towards the roundabout) where it wouldn't be quite as space constrained.
• Extend Merseyrail to Widnes (using 25Kv, no new 750v DC required!)
• 2tph stoppers calling at Oxford Road, Irlam, Glazebrook, Birchwood, Padgate, Warrington Central, Warrington West, Sankey for Penketh, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street
• 2tph fasts calling at Oxford Road, Birchwoood, Warrington Central, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street.

So we have a Merseyrail extension AND a Met extension - AND four tracking / keeping the NR route? For 4tph?

One thing I agree on is Oxford Road as a terminus. Liverpool to Sheffield/Nottingham might be best via Victoria. Probably as fast end to end, if slower from Manc!

 

[Purple Orange]

I remember XC starting from Victoria during engineering works, but I don’t recall how much slower it was. However Victoria isn’t exactly flush with capacity either.

 

[Dspatula]

I'm really not sure where this idea that the CLC is slow has come from it's really not, most of it's 85mph. You can even compare non-stop runs at the moment as TPE have training run doing Lime Street to Piccadilly in 37 minutes which you compare to Northern's early morning Airport which is non-stop Lime Street to Piccadilly in 35 minutes.
The problem isn't that it's slow it's the number of stops and the fact that people have got used the expresses especially to Warrington, for comparison the East mids Liverpool does Oxford Rd to Warrington Central in 16 minutes, the peak time all stops takes 37 even if it was a clock face 15 minute timetable that's still going to big increase in journey times for a lot of people. For completeness the faster day time stopper takes 26 minutes the slower 32.
Also on that note Warrington Bank Quay is a much slower train, usually 31 minutes from Oxford Rd.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'm really not sure where this idea that the CLC is slow has come from it's really not, most of it's 85mph. You can even compare non-stop runs at the moment as TPE have training run doing Lime Street to Piccadilly in 37 minutes which you compare to Northern's early morning Airport which is non-stop Lime Street to Piccadilly in 35 minutes.
The problem isn't that it's slow it's the number of stops and the fact that people have got used the expresses especially to Warrington, for comparison the East mids Liverpool does Oxford Rd to Warrington Central in 16 minutes, the peak time all stops takes 37 even if it was a clock face 15 minute timetable that's still going to big increase in journey times for a lot of people. For completeness the faster day time stopper takes 26 minutes the slower 32.
Also on that note Warrington Bank Quay is a much slower train, usually 31 minutes from Oxford Rd.

The issue, like many of the lines through Manchester, is that the suburban stations that have populations similar to that situated near Metrolink stations are mostly bypassed. These areas could easily support a 10 tph service if their line happened to be viable for being a part of Metrolink.

Given that their lines are mainlines to other cities, expresses of course run on them, but we have this false assumption that I see often on this forum that 2 tph stations will satisfy stations like Urmston and I‘ve even seen that argued for Cheadle Hulme too! Then we have the ridiculous situation of too many express services running to the airport. So the question becomes “what can be done in the long term to make better use of existing infrastructure?”

 

[HSTEd]

The problem isn't that it's slow it's the number of stops and the fact that people have got used the expresses especially to Warrington, for comparison the East mids Liverpool does Oxford Rd to Warrington Central in 16 minutes, the peak time all stops takes 37 even if it was a clock face 15 minute timetable that's still going to big increase in journey times for a lot of people. For completeness the faster day time stopper takes 26 minutes the slower 32.
Also on that note Warrington Bank Quay is a much slower train, usually 31 minutes from Oxford Rd.

At least the ATW Service from Bank Quay to Oxford Road appears to be only ~28 minutes some of the time. There is also a ~28 minute service from Bank Quay to Victoria run by Northern (the Chester-Leeds service).
That places a hard cap on the journey time from Warrington to Manchester, and whilst is true that sometimes Warrington Central Oxford Road trains are only 16 minutes (sometimes 19), you get precisely one train per hour that can do that.

The other trains take journey times above 20 minutes.

It has been repeatedly shown that move frequent services are more popular, even if somewhat slower.

One train per hour at 16/19 or two at 28/31 from WBQ and five at ~35/37. And I think a tram-train is likely to do rather better than 35/37 simply because it will be all axles motored etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has been repeatedly shown that move frequent services are more popular, even if somewhat slower.

This is why if we aren't going to just do 4 stopping services I propose 4 through services with each one semifast on one side of Warrington and stopping on the other. That way the busier stations still get 4 journey opportunities per hour to each end, even if they might be a bit offset in time from a pure 4tph.

 

[Purple Orange]

This is why if we aren't going to just do 4 stopping services I propose 4 through services with each one semifast on one side of Warrington and stopping on the other. That way the busier stations still get 4 journey opportunities per hour to each end, even if they might be a bit offset in time from a pure 4tph.

What would be the busier stations? However surely it is the Manchester & Liverpool urban services that need 4 tph.

Really this is a long term view, but we do have to consider that a town like Birchwood, which has 2 stoppers plus 1 fast each hour has a population of just 12,000. Irlam has 20,000 residents, Urmston has 42,000 residents (albeit with 3 stations - Flixton, Chassen Rd and Urmston itself), then you get in to Stratford where there are 47,000 residents. Those are 2011 populations, so no doubt they are all higher now. That will be over 110,000 that could have better links to both the centre of Liverpool and Manchester. The urban area of Warrington (2019) had a population of 165,000 for comparison. On the otherside of Warrington, Widnes has 60,000 residents (3 tph), and Halewood has 20,000 residents. I can’t see how many live near Hough Green. Then we get in to Merseyrail territory.

In effect we have a population along the line which is getting a very different service level and indeed those 165,000 by Warrington are not going to be close. Many will be closer to Padgate or Warrington West.

 

[Dspatula]

I should be clear that personally I would support 15 minute clock face schedule, but I do think I should point the arguments people are going to make against it.
When comes to people at the station just asking for place they tend to just want the train to be where they're going to be not that long of wait, but when they're considering it for the inevitable consultation the time factor always creeps in.
Another issue is probably going to be the freight from Trafford Park which always takes a long time to get on or off the mainline.
For reference on the rare occasions it runs the Northern express takes about 17 minutes Oxford to Warrington.
Anecdotally I would generally take main stations as the one's I'm asked for which is usually; Warrington Central, Liverpool South Parkway, Birchwood, Warrington West, Widnes, Irlam, Urmston and Hough Green.

If I had free reign and assuming the line were to remain heavy rail, electrified and made an every 15 minute suburban service I would aim to keep Warrington Central at no more than 30 minutes to remain comparative with the driving time. I would consolidate and remove stations as necessary between Manchester and Warrington; Trafford Park and Humphrey Park closed and new station created between Park Road and Barton Road to replace them, Chassen Road closed with more bus feeder routes concentrated on Urmston and a much larger park and ride facility at Flixton and, Glazebrook and Irlam new large park and ride west of Moss road near to current loop location with new access road via the old rail alignment from the south east.

 

[tbtc]

Well those two stations have been historically served by the Liverpool-Crewe trains, no reason to believe they couldn't revert to this......

...apart from the fact that there are no Liverpool-Crewe services nowadays (apart from start/end of day short workings). The Liverpool-Birmingham services already stop more than is ideal, so you really don't want to add in another 2 stations if you can help it

Agreed

I can see the logic in running Merseyrail over at least part of the CLC, if it meant freeing up paths out of Lime Street

BUT, if the idea is to replace the two "slows" out of Lime Street with two "slow" Crewe services then it seems a lot of faffing about for very little benefit

Are the Nottingham and Cleethorpes trains running to Liverpool necessarily sacrosanct?
Couldn't they, assuming portion working is not practical, terminate in the Picadilly trainshed until such time as a recast or whatnot allows them to run to the Chat Moss?

As someone living in Sheffield, I'd be fine with terminating all South Yorkshire services in the main shed - a Liverpool link is nice to have, but then a Blackpool link was nice to have (until they were replaced by additional trains to Lime Street) - diverting them over Chat Moss would just mean more DMUs under the wires, it'd be more services through Castlefield (since there'd be the existing CLC services at Deansgate etc)... if it's so important for Sheffield to have a Castlefield link then it'd make more sense to run services through to somewhere unelectrified (Barrow etc)

It is the only west-of-Manchester line that can't go to Victoria, and thus it should get "first dibs" on Castlefield paths, at least as far as Oxford Road.

Yes... and yet the CLC is losing half of it's local services to ensure that there's space for somewhere else to have a direct Castlefield service, a certain somewhere else that could easily have a Victoria service instead but it's "well heeled" passengers have managed to retain a Castlefield path even if it means local passengers on the CLC see their services cut

"first dibs", but it still isn't as important as Southport...

I'm really not sure where this idea that the CLC is slow has come from

I think that a lot of it is because of the significant speed up of the Liverpool - Manchester services via Chat Moss - so much so that (IIRC - pre-Covid) the half hourly "fast" services over the CLC left Lime Street five minutes before the "fast" Chat Moss services but the Chat Moss trains had already arrived in Victoria before the CLC ones got near to Piccadilly - if that's the case then IMHO it's hard to justify trying to compete for "city to city" passengers if it means we have to keep running non-stop through places like Widnes - we struggle to mix "fast" and "slow" services over the same two track bit of railway and it seems wasteful for the CLC to be focussing on competitive Liverpool to Manchester journey times if the improved Chat Moss is always going to win that hands down - might as well improve the number of calls at intermediate CLC stations (maybe just a handful of additional stops per service, maybe full on Merseyrail "everything stops everywhere", dunno)

 

[AGH]

If / When NPR goes through Bank Quay LL then I suspect that the CLC route will be relegated to just Liverpool and Manchester services. Capacity then through Castlefield will determine the extent. Bound to be a bun fight over who uses that capacity at that point.

Additionally it will depend on funding / ambitions of TFGM and Merseytravel respectively. TFGM have already mentioned tram trains but surely their interest ends at Irlam?. I don't foresee any change to the skip stop Northern service for a very long time. Supplemented by Airport semi fast and it serves the lines needs more than enough. (Lived on it for 45 years so used it a lot) Anyone in Warrington will use NPR going forward thus satisfying long distance needs.

 

[HSTEd]

Additionally it will depend on funding / ambitions of TFGM and Merseytravel respectively. TFGM have already mentioned tram trains but surely their interest ends at Irlam?.

Whilst Greater Manchester itself ends at Irlam, the wider transport system really doesn't want to end up with an Irlam-Warrington shuttle, and I think the section might prove somewhat renumerative for TfGM, so I expect they would be expected to run to Warrington Central as a quid pro quo for being given the line to tram-train in the first place.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Yes... and yet the CLC is losing half of it's local services to ensure that there's space for somewhere else to have a direct Castlefield service, a certain somewhere else that could easily have a Victoria service instead but it's "well heeled" passengers have managed to retain a Castlefield path even if it means local passengers on the CLC see their services cut

"first dibs", but it still isn't as important as Southport...

The real capacity hogger is the Chorley line's 4tph service to/from Castlefield (2x Blackpool, 2x Lancaster ie Cumbria & Scotland) while the Atherton line gets none at all. Arguably the Blackpool-Airport could go to Victoria (the Hazel Grove providing TfGM's desired Bolton-Stockport link) but currently the issue is about maximising the use of electric trains while recognising that Victoria pathing risks becoming as intractable as Castlefield. It all demonstrates the folly of Grayling's refusal to authorise the Oxford Road and Piccadilly upgrades. With the timing for that seemingly continuing to slip I can see it never happening and us having to wait for NPR to deliver the necessary capacity uplift. Though at least at that point there should be room for just about all local train service needs.

 

[Greybeard33]

The real capacity hogger is the Chorley line's 4tph service to/from Castlefield (2x Blackpool, 2x Lancaster ie Cumbria & Scotland) while the Atherton line gets none at all. Arguably the Blackpool-Airport could go to Victoria (the Hazel Grove providing TfGM's desired Bolton-Stockport link) but currently the issue is about maximising the use of electric trains while recognising that Victoria pathing risks becoming as intractable as Castlefield. It all demonstrates the folly of Grayling's refusal to authorise the Oxford Road and Piccadilly upgrades. With the timing for that seemingly continuing to slip I can see it never happening and us having to wait for NPR to deliver the necessary capacity uplift. Though at least at that point there should be room for just about all local train service needs.

"TfGM's desired Bolton-Stockport link" will be no more from December, as both Blackpool services are going to go the Airport, with Hazel Grove services terminating at Piccadilly. There is certainly no capacity at Victoria to terminate the Blackpool services, at least until the proposed west facing bays are built. The Preston - Victoria is being binned from December, with the Blackpool services picking up its stops.

 

[cle]

BUT, if the idea is to replace the two "slows" out of Lime Street with two "slow" Crewe services then it seems a lot of faffing about for very little benefit

this is a good point - as we have been quite Manchester-focused here.

If paths were freed up at Lime St, what is a good use of them, in the Crewe direction? The second London is pathed/covered already. So it could be two slows to Crewe, which can remove some stops from the Birminghams and speed those up, which is needed. I don't think even Runcorn needs both!

Or a second hourly service to Chester via Halton, and then onwards. There is a desire for Wrexham, and Shrewsbury/Cardiff, but then North Wales is the real demand also. 2tph would be good here - and dare I say, one might be able to skip Runcorn (as well as Helsby/Frodsham) - and speed up Chester-Liverpool to compare better with Merseyrail.