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What should we do about Uckfield to Lewes?

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yorksrob

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moderator note: posts #1-#3 originally in this thread:

Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)


It will also make reopening a line across Dartmoor more feaaible by avoiding the need for full electrification.

I think where you are being misunderstood is in the system being partial electrification.

So you would electrify from Parson Street to just north of Cogload Junction, then from Wellington to Stoke Cannon, from Exeter St Thomas to Starcross, from Newton Abbot to Plympton, Saltash to Bodmin Road etc.

Ie electrify all the easy plain line stuff and omit all the awkward bits that need knitting everywhere or have other isses like Bristol, Taunton, Exeter, Dawlish, Plymouth, Royal Albert Bridge etc.

There is a safety argument to this as well as the complex areas are the most difficult to maintain.

I remain sceptical about the Uckfield branch (unless someone third rails Hurst Green to Edenbridge (exclusive)and third rails or 25kVs crowborough (exclusive) to Uckfield but see it as ideal for the Redhill to Guildford line with the proviso that the third rail is extended half a mile from the junction with the Portsmouth line to Shalford snd preferably the Ash Gap is electrified.

Ashford to Hastings seems a no brainer for 25kV as for as three Oaks then third rail for the last mile through the tunnel to Ore.

I would electrify Uckfield by third rail all the way through to Lewes (reinstating the missing bit).
 
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21C101

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I would electrify Uckfield by third rail all the way through to Lewes (reinstating the missing bit).
So would I, but there is little support for it in certain quarters locally with nimbies in the villages north of Lewes appearing to have the ear of local politcians. Had the county council had a similar frame of mind to say, Devon CC, I suspect it would have been reopened in Network Southeast days, and it certainly would not have shut in the first place, with the offer of diversion via Hamsey for a small fee being taken up.
 

A0

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I would electrify Uckfield by third rail all the way through to Lewes (reinstating the missing bit).
Yes, yes, we've heard your view on that many times.

And equally on many occasions it has been explained to you why extension of 3rd rail won't happen and why reopening Uckfield - Lewes solves none of the problems you claim it will.

I've no sympathy for people who move next to an old railway bed, then complain when it gets reopened.
Well, surely it depends how long ago it was abandoned and whether there were ever plans to reopen?

Uckfield - Lewes has been closed for over 50 years. Anyone buying a house along there would quite reasonably assume it's abandoned.
 

yorksrob

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Yes, yes, we've heard your view on that many times.

And equally on many occasions it has been explained to you why extension of 3rd rail won't happen and why reopening Uckfield - Lewes solves none of the problems you claim it will.


Well, surely it depends how long ago it was abandoned and whether there were ever plans to reopen?

Uckfield - Lewes has been closed for over 50 years. Anyone buying a house along there would quite reasonably assume it's abandoned.

It has indeed been explained many times and it still makes no sense.

Uckfield - Lewes only closed in 1969 and has had an active reopening campaign ever since. Anyone in the area unaware of this must have moved in under a rock.
 

Peregrine 4903

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By far the most useful route to reopen as a diversionary line for the BML would actually be East Grinstead to Haywards Heath. It won't happen as I doubt it any cbr would add up but from a purely diversionary standpoint it would be by far the most useful.

If the route were to be reopened significantly more services could use it compared to Lewes to Uckfield. All the Vic - Brighton, Thameslink Brighton, Vic - Eastbourne, Thameslink Littlehampton's and Vic - Littlehampton's could use it. Compared to just the Brightons and Eastbournes with Lewes to Uckfield. Also the Eastbournes would have to reverse at Lewes. It aslo is not going to significantly lengthen journey times compared to Lewes to Uckfield which would massively increase them effectively making it not a particularly useful diversionary route. Also it would allow Gatwick Airport to be entirely blocked at some weekends, which could be useful, particularly at the minute with the Gatwick project going on. It would also bypass the most vulnerable section of the BML in terms of disruption from infrastructure failures. One thing to consider with Lewes to Uckfield is that the BML will never be blocked in its entirity from South Croydon to Brighton.

In terms of actually reopening East Grinstead to Haywards Heath, most of the track is already there, the only section that isn't is Ardingly to Horsted Keynes but that's already owned by the Bluebell Railway so it would be marginally easier to reopen than Lewes to Uckfield. Implementing a service would also be easiesh as one of the Victoria - East Grinsteads could just be extended to run into the Haywards Heath down bay platform and not conflict with anything on the BML.

It won't happen as there is no population between East Grinstead and Haywards Heath, there is the third rail issue and of course the Bluebell Railway itself but as a reopening its the one that would be most beneficial from a strategic standpoint in my viewpoint.
 

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It has indeed been explained many times and it still makes no sense.

Uckfield - Lewes only closed in 1969 and has had an active reopening campaign ever since. Anyone in the area unaware of this must have moved in under a rock.

The impression I get is that *most* people seem to take the view that as long as they are compensated accordingly then moving home for a rail reopening isn’t a terminal issue. What people find worse is years of planning blight on a “will it or won’t it?” notional scheme, where they receive no compensation at all yet find their property unsaleable or have to drop below market value to sell.
 

yorksrob

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The impression I get is that *most* people seem to take the view that as long as they are compensated accordingly then moving home for a rail reopening isn’t a terminal issue. What people find worse is years of planning blight on a “will it or won’t it?” notional scheme, where they receive no compensation at all yet find their property unsaleable or have to drop below market value to sell.

Absolutely.

Definitely a reason why they should get on with it.
 

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Well, surely it depends how long ago it was abandoned and whether there were ever plans to reopen?

Uckfield - Lewes has been closed for over 50 years. Anyone buying a house along there would quite reasonably assume it's abandoned.

I wonder if Rob feels the same should be true of other former uses too... there are a lot of houses in Yorkshire built on former coal land or very close to former coal land - presumably the people living in such dwellings shouldn't be allowed to complain if the pit were ever to re-open? What about houses on the site of old quarries? Should there be a limit after which people are safe to finally build on land that used to have a railway line on it? Or do former railway alignments have to be preserved as sacred sites, like some spiritual ley-lines?


It's interesting to compare the reaction to people living in a fifty year old house ("they should have known that one day the railway would be rebuilt") to the reaction when the diverted path of HS2 would mean knocking down a new housing estate in Mexborough near Doncaster ("this brand new property is a family heirloom and you can't demolish it") - but then the same goes for other things (e.g. the people worrying about the fact that HS2 will mean cutting down some trees who seem to think that nothing will have grown or need cutting back on alignments abandoned in the 1960s).

Uckfield - Lewes only closed in 1969 and has had an active reopening campaign ever since

Maybe, after over fifty years of actively campaigning they should accept that it's just not going to happen and focus their attentions on something else instead?

I mean, fifty plus years of campaigning and nothing has changed... I'd just give up... accept the realities of the situation:

  • "Diversionary benefits when the BML is closed" is a weak excuse - we've seen widespread bustitution on the BML rather than using the line through Horsham, so what guarantee is there that TSGN or their successors wouldn't just put people on buses in future, rather than try to run services via Uckfield?

  • Uckfield - London trains are already fairly busy. Presumably all of these Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes - London passengers who'd use a re-opened line are going to struggle to be accommodated on services through Uckfield, so you'll need to increase the Uckfield - London frequency. Since the line through East Croydon is already pretty full, where are the spare paths for additional Uckfield services going to come from? Where's the spare space at London termini? Does your version of this include the "close down part of Croydon Tramlink and build a brand new line towards Docklands to head to some unspecified location north of the Thames" proposal! that does the rounds from time to time, or are you confident that you'd find space at East Croydon and a London termini for all of these additional Uckfield services?

  • Are these services going to replace the existing Ore - Eastbourne - Lewes - London trains? So Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes lose out on services to Gatwick etc? Plumpton and Cooksbridge lose all trains? Or are they in addition to them, in which case Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes see London services doubled? Or are you more concerned with "bringing back an abandoned line through fairly empty countryside" rather than actually worrying about the practicalities of this re-opening actually being of practical use? Re-build first, come up with reasons later?

  • Currently Uckfield to London is around 1h20. Lewes to London is quicker than that (1h02 southbound). Just to repeat - Lewes already has a quicker journey time to London than Uckfield does. So even with a pretty fast alignment, Lewes - Uckfield - London is going to be over 1h30 (a fifty percent increase in journey time for Lewes - London passengers). Given that the Lewes - London trains are already every half hour, that means (if you are running Uckfield services to replace the Gatwick services) the Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes passengers face a thirty minute increase in journey times to the capital and no more trains to Gatwick etc, or it means (if you are running Uckfield services as well as the existing Gatwick services) that it would always be faster to wait for a "via Gatwick" train than to use one of the slow services via Uckfield - i.e. the expensive re-opening is going to practically no use for people in Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes unless they actually just want to go to Uckfield itself or on a handful of weekends a year when the BML is closed (assuming that the TOC doesn't just bustitute like it currently does even though there's a parallel line through Horsham that it could run diverted Brighton services on).

I don't know about you, but those are the kind of inconveniences that would make me think that maybe this wasn't a line I'd prioritise for spending large sums of money on - it seems like it doesn't actually solve many real problems, other than giving an eastern alternative to the BML that could take diverted trains a couple of weekends a year just like there's already a western alternative to the BML that *doesn't* take diverted trains when the BML is closed - come back when the Horsham line is groaning under the strain of taking diverted Brighton trains on a regular basis, eh?
 

yorksrob

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I wonder if Rob feels the same should be true of other former uses too... there are a lot of houses in Yorkshire built on former coal land or very close to former coal land - presumably the people living in such dwellings shouldn't be allowed to complain if the pit were ever to re-open? What about houses on the site of old quarries? Should there be a limit after which people are safe to finally build on land that used to have a railway line on it? Or do former railway alignments have to be preserved as sacred sites, like some spiritual ley-lines?


It's interesting to compare the reaction to people living in a fifty year old house ("they should have known that one day the railway would be rebuilt") to the reaction when the diverted path of HS2 would mean knocking down a new housing estate in Mexborough near Doncaster ("this brand new property is a family heirloom and you can't demolish it") - but then the same goes for other things (e.g. the people worrying about the fact that HS2 will mean cutting down some trees who seem to think that nothing will have grown or need cutting back on alignments abandoned in the 1960s).



Maybe, after over fifty years of actively campaigning they should accept that it's just not going to happen and focus their attentions on something else instead?

I mean, fifty plus years of campaigning and nothing has changed... I'd just give up... accept the realities of the situation:

  • "Diversionary benefits when the BML is closed" is a weak excuse - we've seen widespread bustitution on the BML rather than using the line through Horsham, so what guarantee is there that TSGN or their successors wouldn't just put people on buses in future, rather than try to run services via Uckfield?

  • Uckfield - London trains are already fairly busy. Presumably all of these Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes - London passengers who'd use a re-opened line are going to struggle to be accommodated on services through Uckfield, so you'll need to increase the Uckfield - London frequency. Since the line through East Croydon is already pretty full, where are the spare paths for additional Uckfield services going to come from? Where's the spare space at London termini? Does your version of this include the "close down part of Croydon Tramlink and build a brand new line towards Docklands to head to some unspecified location north of the Thames" proposal! that does the rounds from time to time, or are you confident that you'd find space at East Croydon and a London termini for all of these additional Uckfield services?

  • Are these services going to replace the existing Ore - Eastbourne - Lewes - London trains? So Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes lose out on services to Gatwick etc? Plumpton and Cooksbridge lose all trains? Or are they in addition to them, in which case Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes see London services doubled? Or are you more concerned with "bringing back an abandoned line through fairly empty countryside" rather than actually worrying about the practicalities of this re-opening actually being of practical use? Re-build first, come up with reasons later?

  • Currently Uckfield to London is around 1h20. Lewes to London is quicker than that (1h02 southbound). Just to repeat - Lewes already has a quicker journey time to London than Uckfield does. So even with a pretty fast alignment, Lewes - Uckfield - London is going to be over 1h30 (a fifty percent increase in journey time for Lewes - London passengers). Given that the Lewes - London trains are already every half hour, that means (if you are running Uckfield services to replace the Gatwick services) the Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes passengers face a thirty minute increase in journey times to the capital and no more trains to Gatwick etc, or it means (if you are running Uckfield services as well as the existing Gatwick services) that it would always be faster to wait for a "via Gatwick" train than to use one of the slow services via Uckfield - i.e. the expensive re-opening is going to practically no use for people in Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes unless they actually just want to go to Uckfield itself or on a handful of weekends a year when the BML is closed (assuming that the TOC doesn't just bustitute like it currently does even though there's a parallel line through Horsham that it could run diverted Brighton services on).

I don't know about you, but those are the kind of inconveniences that would make me think that maybe this wasn't a line I'd prioritise for spending large sums of money on - it seems like it doesn't actually solve many real problems, other than giving an eastern alternative to the BML that could take diverted trains a couple of weekends a year just like there's already a western alternative to the BML that *doesn't* take diverted trains when the BML is closed - come back when the Horsham line is groaning under the strain of taking diverted Brighton trains on a regular basis, eh?

The Horsham line was regularly groaning under the weight of diverted trains, prior to lockdown.

The main point would to connect the Wealden towns to Brighton.
 

Peregrine 4903

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I wonder if Rob feels the same should be true of other former uses too... there are a lot of houses in Yorkshire built on former coal land or very close to former coal land - presumably the people living in such dwellings shouldn't be allowed to complain if the pit were ever to re-open? What about houses on the site of old quarries? Should there be a limit after which people are safe to finally build on land that used to have a railway line on it? Or do former railway alignments have to be preserved as sacred sites, like some spiritual ley-lines?


It's interesting to compare the reaction to people living in a fifty year old house ("they should have known that one day the railway would be rebuilt") to the reaction when the diverted path of HS2 would mean knocking down a new housing estate in Mexborough near Doncaster ("this brand new property is a family heirloom and you can't demolish it") - but then the same goes for other things (e.g. the people worrying about the fact that HS2 will mean cutting down some trees who seem to think that nothing will have grown or need cutting back on alignments abandoned in the 1960s).



Maybe, after over fifty years of actively campaigning they should accept that it's just not going to happen and focus their attentions on something else instead?

I mean, fifty plus years of campaigning and nothing has changed... I'd just give up... accept the realities of the situation:

  • "Diversionary benefits when the BML is closed" is a weak excuse - we've seen widespread bustitution on the BML rather than using the line through Horsham, so what guarantee is there that TSGN or their successors wouldn't just put people on buses in future, rather than try to run services via Uckfield?

  • Uckfield - London trains are already fairly busy. Presumably all of these Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes - London passengers who'd use a re-opened line are going to struggle to be accommodated on services through Uckfield, so you'll need to increase the Uckfield - London frequency. Since the line through East Croydon is already pretty full, where are the spare paths for additional Uckfield services going to come from? Where's the spare space at London termini? Does your version of this include the "close down part of Croydon Tramlink and build a brand new line towards Docklands to head to some unspecified location north of the Thames" proposal! that does the rounds from time to time, or are you confident that you'd find space at East Croydon and a London termini for all of these additional Uckfield services?

  • Are these services going to replace the existing Ore - Eastbourne - Lewes - London trains? So Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes lose out on services to Gatwick etc? Plumpton and Cooksbridge lose all trains? Or are they in addition to them, in which case Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes see London services doubled? Or are you more concerned with "bringing back an abandoned line through fairly empty countryside" rather than actually worrying about the practicalities of this re-opening actually being of practical use? Re-build first, come up with reasons later?

  • Currently Uckfield to London is around 1h20. Lewes to London is quicker than that (1h02 southbound). Just to repeat - Lewes already has a quicker journey time to London than Uckfield does. So even with a pretty fast alignment, Lewes - Uckfield - London is going to be over 1h30 (a fifty percent increase in journey time for Lewes - London passengers). Given that the Lewes - London trains are already every half hour, that means (if you are running Uckfield services to replace the Gatwick services) the Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes passengers face a thirty minute increase in journey times to the capital and no more trains to Gatwick etc, or it means (if you are running Uckfield services as well as the existing Gatwick services) that it would always be faster to wait for a "via Gatwick" train than to use one of the slow services via Uckfield - i.e. the expensive re-opening is going to practically no use for people in Ore/ Eastbourne/ Lewes unless they actually just want to go to Uckfield itself or on a handful of weekends a year when the BML is closed (assuming that the TOC doesn't just bustitute like it currently does even though there's a parallel line through Horsham that it could run diverted Brighton services on).

I don't know about you, but those are the kind of inconveniences that would make me think that maybe this wasn't a line I'd prioritise for spending large sums of money on - it seems like it doesn't actually solve many real problems, other than giving an eastern alternative to the BML that could take diverted trains a couple of weekends a year just like there's already a western alternative to the BML that *doesn't* take diverted trains when the BML is closed - come back when the Horsham line is groaning under the strain of taking diverted Brighton trains on a regular basis, eh?
To be fair, I think the reason why the Horsham line isn't used much a diversionary route is that from 0800-1800 day Sunday the line is a Section 4 possession opportunity meaning that possessions get priority in most casess and there is no Sunday WTT service. The other issue is that not many southern drivers have Dorking to Horsham route knowledge. Some services do get diverted down there though. I think there may also be signalling, staffing issues.
 

A0

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It has indeed been explained many times and it still makes no sense.

Uckfield - Lewes only closed in 1969 and has had an active reopening campaign ever since. Anyone in the area unaware of this must have moved in under a rock.

Makes no sense to you. Which kind of suggests it's your logic that's flawed?

There are many "campaign groups" that have been banging on about equally unlikely re-openings. And whilst their persistence is to be admired, their inability to accept reality makes their judgement somewhat questionable.
 

Bald Rick

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Uckfield - Lewes only closed in 1969 and has had an active reopening campaign ever since. Anyone in the area unaware of this must have moved in under a rock.

To be fair, “Active Reopening Campaign” doesn’t mean anything when it comes to buying a house.

A conveyancing solicitor will perform searches to check if there is any formal plan for construction of any kind in the vicinity of the property being bought. The presence of a campaign group doesn’t come into it.
 

bramling

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The Horsham line was regularly groaning under the weight of diverted trains, prior to lockdown.

The main point would to connect the Wealden towns to Brighton.
I’ve always thought any case for Lewis - Uckfield would essentially be based on any demand to connect the likes of Brighton - Falmer - Lewes - Uckfield - Crowborough - Tunbridge Wells - Tonbridge - Maidstone, and perhaps Medway.

Whether there’s sufficient demand for such journeys is another matter, however the comparable roads are pretty busy and not the best. The big problem is that the direct alignment through Lewes has essentially gone and is unlikely to be able to be restored, so an awkward reversal would be necessary.

Uckfield electrification is essentially a separate issue, though with the line now seeing 10-car DMUs and very much being a diesel island, it is becoming an increasing anomaly.
 

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I am a firm supporter of reopening Uckfield to Lewes with 3rd rail electrification.
Since closure the population of the area has grown considerably being within commuting distance of London and Brighton. There are also "hidden" flows of traffic from places like Uckfield and Crowborough to Falmer for students and supporters of Brighton & Hove Albion FC.
Research and estimates which have previously calculated similar proposals have sometimes proven to be inaccurate. For example the number of passengers using the reopened the Waverley route to Tweedbank is over double what was originally estimated.
East Sussex Council have safeguarded the route from any redevelopment. Although the A26 crosses the alignment just outside Uckfield I understand they will pay for a bridge. Whilst the 1969 route through Lewes town centre has been obliterated by redevelopment the original route the Hamsey Loop (closed 1868) or similar alignment north of the town seems an obvious alternative. The Wealden Line Campaign have been campaigning for many years to reopen the link and to avoid reversals for Brighton bound trains they have suggested a semi circular loop (similar to that at Ely) so that trains can continue head on. Such a loop would also be useful for London to Brighton trains diverted via Lewes when the line between Keymer Jn and Brighton is blocked.
On several occasions I have used the no. 29 bus between Tunbridge Wells to Brighton which takes about one hour 45 minutes compared with less than one hour by rail in 1969. I would not drive to Brighton as not only is there road traffic congestion in Brighton but the cost of car parking very expensive..!
 

A0

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I am a firm supporter of reopening Uckfield to Lewes with 3rd rail electrification.
Since closure the population of the area has grown considerably being within commuting distance of London and Brighton. There are also "hidden" flows of traffic from places like Uckfield and Crowborough to Falmer for students and supporters of Brighton & Hove Albion FC.
Research and estimates which have previously calculated similar proposals have sometimes proven to be inaccurate. For example the number of passengers using the reopened the Waverley route to Tweedbank is over double what was originally estimated.
East Sussex Council have safeguarded the route from any redevelopment. Although the A26 crosses the alignment just outside Uckfield I understand they will pay for a bridge. Whilst the 1969 route through Lewes town centre has been obliterated by redevelopment the original route the Hamsey Loop (closed 1868) or similar alignment north of the town seems an obvious alternative. The Wealden Line Campaign have been campaigning for many years to reopen the link and to avoid reversals for Brighton bound trains they have suggested a semi circular loop (similar to that at Ely) so that trains can continue head on. Such a loop would also be useful for London to Brighton trains diverted via Lewes when the line between Keymer Jn and Brighton is blocked.
On several occasions I have used the no. 29 bus between Tunbridge Wells to Brighton which takes about one hour 45 minutes compared with less than one hour by rail in 1969. I would not drive to Brighton as not only is there road traffic congestion in Brighton but the cost of car parking very expensive..!

You can be a firm supporter of whatever you like, but this one is still sitting in the 'unlikely in the next couple of decades' bracket.

Falmer is a village of less than 500 people. So that's irrelevant. Supporters of a football team are also irrelevant because they create some traffic a dozen days a year - for any such a line to be viable it needs decent use every day.

The comparison with Borders, peddled by many as the reason for pretty much every reopening, is invalid. Those towns were over 30 miles to the nearest rail connection - far greater than any of the schemes which keep getting peddled - and had a poor road network with slow journey times. The destination, Edinburgh, is a major jobs market and that meant the Borders rail became viable as a commuter line. Uckfield - Lewes won't be..
 

yorksrob

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You can be a firm supporter of whatever you like, but this one is still sitting in the 'unlikely in the next couple of decades' bracket.

Falmer is a village of less than 500 people. So that's irrelevant. Supporters of a football team are also irrelevant because they create some traffic a dozen days a year - for any such a line to be viable it needs decent use every day.

The comparison with Borders, peddled by many as the reason for pretty much every reopening, is invalid. Those towns were over 30 miles to the nearest rail connection - far greater than any of the schemes which keep getting peddled - and had a poor road network with slow journey times. The destination, Edinburgh, is a major jobs market and that meant the Borders rail became viable as a commuter line. Uckfield - Lewes won't be..

Your dismissal of Falmer as a village of 500 people is also invalid as it is the main transport link for Sussex University.
 

Aictos

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To be honest in my view, could they if there was a feasible business case to reopen to Lewes extend the Uckfields to Lewes using existing rolling stock?

In any case, surely electrifying the line is of more importance then reopening to Uckfield? eg you cannot have both so which offers the best returns?
 

steamybrian

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You can be a firm supporter of whatever you like, but this one is still sitting in the 'unlikely in the next couple of decades' bracket.

Falmer is a village of less than 500 people. So that's irrelevant. Supporters of a football team are also irrelevant because they create some traffic a dozen days a year - for any such a line to be viable it needs decent use every day.

The comparison with Borders, peddled by many as the reason for pretty much every reopening, is invalid. Those towns were over 30 miles to the nearest rail connection - far greater than any of the schemes which keep getting peddled - and had a poor road network with slow journey times. The destination, Edinburgh, is a major jobs market and that meant the Borders rail became viable as a commuter line. Uckfield - Lewes won't be..
It appears to me that you have taken a negative view and just thought how can I turn it down. Falmer is a small village but the station ( and Moulescomb) is used regularly daily by students attending the University of Sussex which is adjacent. At present Brighton FC play 19 home games at their football stadium which is also used for other events.
Whilst I quoted the Waverley Route as one example there are others around the country where the passenger numbers are far more than that estimated.
I have driven along the A26 many, many times between Tunbridge Wells to Lewes and for long stretches it is slow (40mph) and twisting route particularly between Crowborough to Uckfield, As I said the road between Falmer and Brighton is frequently congested accordingly I do not drive into Brighton. I suggest you drive from Crowborough town centre or Uckfield town centre to Brighton city centre or take the bus and see for yourself.
As enthusiasts we should be supporting any proposals to reopen closed lines.
 

Ianno87

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As enthusiasts we should be supporting any proposals to reopen closed lines.

No, we should be supporting those new or reopened railways that fulfill an actual transport need, where rail is the best solution and have credible and coherent cases.
 

yorksrob

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No, we should be supporting those new or reopened railways that fulfill an actual transport need, where rail is the best solution and have credible and coherent cases.

It is. The Wealden towns are growing population centres, Brighton is an employment and leisure centre, Falmer is an educational centre. There's your transport need.
 

Ianno87

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It is. The Wealden towns are growing population centres, Brighton is an employment and leisure centre, Falmer is an educational centre. There's your transport need.

Is rail the best solution for this transport need? Will it offer a frequency to make it attractive or will people still drive?Are there enough potential passengers from this part of the world to justify the cost? How much can the Walden towns "grow" in the constraints of the greenbelt? Etc. Etc.

The facts (in terms of business cases etc) suggest not.
 

yorksrob

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Is rail the best solution for this transport need? Will it offer a frequency to make it attractive or will people still drive?Are there enough potential passengers from this part of the world to justify the cost? How much can the Walden towns "grow" in the constraints of the greenbelt? Etc. Etc.

The facts (in terms of business cases etc) suggest not.

And what business case have you seen ?
 

Ianno87

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And what business case have you seen ?

Check out the Wealden Line's own website,with a very good summary from Network Rail:


Network Rail was commissioned by East Sussex County Council on behalf of the Central Rail Corridor Project Board to produce the report. The Board consists of five voting members, a councillor each from East Sussex County Council (chair), Wealden District Council and Lewes District Council, plus the MPs Norman Baker (Lewes) and Charles Hendry (Wealden). There were also observers from Lewes, Uckfield and Crowborough Town Councils, along with representatives of Parishes in the area plus the Regional Development Agency (SEEDA).

In all my 13 years being involved in projects, I have never been involved in one that was scrutinised and challenged by the project promoters (the CRC Project Board) as much as this one. All of the Board, including ESCC, wanted the project to succeed – as did I – and the challenges put to me as Project Sponsor were all to ensure that we had pursued all possible benefits of the project, made the correct assumptions and followed the correct processes.

The report is a Network Rail report, and we sub-contracted the passenger demand and business case work from Mott MacDonald. The technical part of the report was easy – basically straightforward engineering – but the passenger demand work in particular is a complex piece of work that Network Rail doesn’t have much experience of doing in house, hence using consultants.

All projects have to be assessed to demonstrate they are ‘value for money’ – basically that the project makes sufficient income and/or provides enough benefit to society (converted into monetary terms) to pay for the investment. To do this we produce a business case that adds up all the benefits and all the costs and with some fairly complicated maths determines whether the benefits exceed the costs. In this case, on the assumptions used in the report (all of which were discussed with and accepted by the Project Board) there is no case for reopening this line. In fact, the rail industry and society as a whole would be worse off through reopening the line, as the costs would be greater than the benefits by quite a significant margin. [Study proved a Benefit to Cost Ratio ranging between 0.70 and 0.78. A BCR of 2.0 or above is expected by Government]

I have heard a number of times and from a number of different people words along the lines of ‘the benefits of reopening this line are obvious to everyone’ – however after a lot of detailed work I’m afraid we couldn’t find anywhere near enough.

The main problem is quite simple. The big income earner for all commuter Train Operating Companies serving London is peak time commuting on season tickets. Reopening the line just between Lewes and Uckfield would not encourage more people to commute to London as both stations already have good services to London with two per hour each in the peak.

The forecast demand model demonstrated that the main demand would be between Uckfield and Crowborough to Lewes (Brighton would incur changing trains at Lewes) and vice versa. The trouble is that the distance travelled is small and most would be contra-peak; therefore, whilst there would actually be a reasonable level of demand (as many going south of Uckfield as on the branch today), fares and thus income would be low.

So, the reason Network Rail isn’t showing any enthusiasm is that it would look rather foolish of us, or indeed anyone seeking Government funding, to actively promote or argue for any project that is a net loss to the industry and society. It is a particular issue for us right now – you will have seen the news about our current settlement from the Regulator – basically we’re not going to get enough money over the next 5 years for running the existing railway and projects to expand capacity (e.g. platform extensions throughout the Southern ‘Metro’ area) all of which have very positive impacts on the rail industry and society.

Similarly there is currently a wide debate going on about electrification which also has a great business case on lines where traffic volumes are high. Put simply, there is not enough money to pay for all of these great projects with great business cases, so it is just not sensible to try and promote one without a good case.

There is an argument that the Uckfield line could relieve the BML and we looked at this for the study. There are some problems with this. Firstly the route from Lewes via Uckfield is longer, [by 5 miles] has a lower linespeed, and has many more stations that need to be served; the journey time is thus up to 20 minutes longer than via Gatwick. To speed up the journey time we would either have to upgrade and/or electrify the existing line (expensive) or cut out stops (controversial). Even then it would be, at best, 10 minutes slower than via Gatwick.

Secondly, Southern have quite heavy flows from Coastway East to Haywards Heath, Gatwick and to a lesser extent Three Bridges / Crawley . These flows still have to be provided for. So, even if we could persuade people from Lewes and the coast east of there who are heading to London to switch to a train that takes at least 10 minutes longer via Uckfield, we would still have to run a similar number of services via Gatwick as today – albeit these would be a little less full.

The additional peak capacity available on the BML would be around 10% if everyone switched to the slower services. As a comparison, we are raising peak capacity south of Gatwick on the BML by approx 25% by the simple solution of having longer First Capital Connect trains from 2011 and the extensions to the Gatwick Express which start in a few months time.

The third, and greatest problem, is that the main pinch points on the BML are:

1) East Croydon platform capacity.
2) Windmill Bridge junction.
3) London terminal platform capacity (East London Line and Thameslink programme resolves this).
4) Platform capacity at Gatwick (hopefully resolved through the redevelopment).

This means we couldn’t run more trains than today through East Croydon in the peak. So to run more trains on the Uckfield line we would need to sacrifice services from elsewhere. Just resolving Croydon / Windmill Bridge is a £200-300m job; even if we had the money to do this then we would have to consider carefully where to run the additional services to / from, and the Uckfield line would be considered alongside all the other routes through East Croydon.

Finally, comparison with recent reopenings elsewhere in the country (Larkhall, Ebbw Vale, Alloa, Robin Hood, and Aylesbury Vale later this year) is relevant, but does show significant differences. The above have all been successful because they connected reasonably-sized centres of population in economically deprived areas (excluding Aylesbury Vale) that previously had no rail link, to significant economic centres. In most cases this accompanied significant levels of new development - for example, Aylesbury Vale is a station being built next to 3,000 new houses; Alloa station has several hundred new apartments on its doorstep; 2,000 houses were built at Rogerstone on the Ebbw Vale line with more further up the valley. In the latter two cases these new houses and the people who live in them weren’t factored into the original demand assessments for the line, hence the lines are exceeding forecasts. It’s also worth mentioning that all of these except Larkhall are passenger reopenings of freight lines meaning the capital costs were substantially lower.

With respect to Lewes – Uckfield; firstly this part of the world is hardly deprived economically; secondly the main economic centre in the area is London, to which Lewes and Uckfield already have train services; and thirdly there are no plans for significant housing development on the line of the reopened route that would create new traffic to London from the reopened section.

I know it’s not the answer Wealdenline have been looking for, but we are where we are. I’ve invited Brian Hart for a chat through this but haven’t heard anything back from him.”
 

A0

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It appears to me that you have taken a negative view and just thought how can I turn it down. Falmer is a small village but the station ( and Moulescomb) is used regularly daily by students attending the University of Sussex which is adjacent. At present Brighton FC play 19 home games at their football stadium which is also used for other events.
Whilst I quoted the Waverley Route as one example there are others around the country where the passenger numbers are far more than that estimated.
I have driven along the A26 many, many times between Tunbridge Wells to Lewes and for long stretches it is slow (40mph) and twisting route particularly between Crowborough to Uckfield, As I said the road between Falmer and Brighton is frequently congested accordingly I do not drive into Brighton. I suggest you drive from Crowborough town centre or Uckfield town centre to Brighton city centre or take the bus and see for yourself.
As enthusiasts we should be supporting any proposals to reopen closed lines.
*Sigh*

About 3% of the population are in Further or Higher Education.

Crowborough + Uckfield have a population of 35,000, so assuming the average, they have about 1000 FE / HE students. Not all will be at Brighton.

And I 100% disagree with your assertion "enthusiasts" should support any proposals to reopen old lines. Some of us recognise there are multiple solutions to a problem and a new railway isn't necessarily the right answer.

Check out the Wealden Line's own website,with a very good summary from Network Rail:

I believe that pretty much answers it. Game, set & match.
 

30907

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It is. The Wealden towns are growing population centres, Brighton is an employment and leisure centre, Falmer is an educational centre. There's your transport need.
The argument would be strengthened if it were possible to go through to Tun Wells Central and actually make connections, but the satellite seems to say no (is that wrong?)
It is significant that the response from Brian Hart focuses on the BML2 aspect and talks of a "second main line" which London-Eridge-Lewes never was (and I don't think was ever intended to be - though there were non-LBSC plans for competing routes to Brighton (via New Beckenham IIRC) - but that's not relevant to now).
 

yorksrob

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Check out the Wealden Line's own website,with a very good summary from Network Rail:


I can't remember the study I read, but it confirmed that the route would cover its operating costs. It also missed out wider economic benefits as I recall.

*Sigh*

About 3% of the population are in Further or Higher Education.

Crowborough + Uckfield have a population of 35,000, so assuming the average, they have about 1000 FE / HE students. Not all will be at Brighton.

And I 100% disagree with your assertion "enthusiasts" should support any proposals to reopen old lines. Some of us recognise there are multiple solutions to a problem and a new railway isn't necessarily the right answer.


I believe that pretty much answers it. Game, set & match.
Game, Set and Match ? Such hubris.

The "anything but rail" brigade is alive and kicking. Bus, Guided busway, tramway, teleportation device ....
 

A0

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The "anything but rail" brigade is alive and kicking. Bus, Guided busway, tramway, teleportation device ....
You mean those of us with a modicum of reality that recognise rail isn't the only answer.

You seem to think it's right to extend the rail network to all sorts of marginal places. So tell us, when those lines inevitably end up demanding ever greater subsidies which have to come from somewhere, what are you prepared to see cut or not happen, because one of your pets is using the money which is needed for something else. Or would you support fare increases to cover it ?
 

Bald Rick

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I can't remember the study I read, but it confirmed that the route would cover its operating costs. It also missed out wider economic benefits as I recall.

Wider Economic Benefits are often misunderstood. It’s worth reading the relevant modules in the Transport Assessment Guidance.

Basically, wider economic benefits accrue where there have been market failures due to the current transport provision that are corrected through the new transport proposal. Usually, but not exclusively, the wider economic benefits that do occur are triggered by land use change that only happens because of the new link. There has to clear evidence of potential land use change that would only occur if the line was opened, and the value of that land use change can then be counted (in simple terms, obviously it’s more complex).

Good examples are the development of Canary Wharf, or the increased density of development around Elizabeth Line stations, or the hundreds of thousands of new houses planned along East West Rail, or the regeneration expected around HS2 stations. The Crossrail 2 case assumed significant land use change - to the tune of over 300,000 homes that otherwise wouldn’t be built. On a smaller scale the regeneration around some of the Ebbw Vale stations only occurred because of the railway.

So, were Lewes and Wealden District councils to amend their local plans to propose that if (and only if) the line was built then they would encourage much denser development (ie go upwards) in the vicinity of their stations, or open up the green belt for major residential development (we’re talking 10k homes, minimum) then the wider economic benefits would, possibly, be enough to help the case.

The problem, of course, is that both Uckfiled and Lewes already have the rail connection, and already have connections to their local regional centre (London). So to show that development at either location would be only enabled by the railway is going to be tricky.
 

yorksrob

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You mean those of us with a modicum of reality that recognise rail isn't the only answer.

You seem to think it's right to extend the rail network to all sorts of marginal places. So tell us, when those lines inevitably end up demanding ever greater subsidies which have to come from somewhere, what are you prepared to see cut or not happen, because one of your pets is using the money which is needed for something else. Or would you support fare increases to cover it ?

There's nothing marginal about the mid-Sussex commuter belt. How long are the trains on the surviving sections now. Nine carriages ?
 

Bald Rick

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There's nothing marginal about the mid-Sussex commuter belt. How long are the trains on the surviving sections now. Nine carriages ?

In the peak, 6/8/10. Off peak, 2/4. Rarely full (or anything close to it) south of Hurst Green.
 
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