What stock will Scotrail procure to replace HSTs?

[anthony263]

My money will be on class 222's or the mk5s and class 68s

 

[danbarjon]

My money will be on class 222's or the mk5s and class 68s

I definitely think the Mk5s and 68 should be something worth considering.

 

[12LDA28C]

I definitely think the Mk5s and 68 should be something worth considering.

They haven't been mentioned anywhere in connection with a move to ScotRail. The 222s however...

 

[John R]

Doesn't "support efforts to decarbonise Scotland's railways" suggest new bi-mode stock, rather than reuse of existing stock released from elsewhere?

 

[MalaiseForever]

My money will be on class 222's or the mk5s and class 68s

mk5 and 68s are going to Chiltern.

So scotrail would need something else.

Variant of the 800s I wonder?

 

[skyhigh]

mk5 and 68s are going to Chiltern.

Are they...?

 

[birchesgreen]

I would have thought an IET version makes sense for a number of reasons.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

mk5 and 68s are going to Chiltern.

So scotrail would need something else.

Variant of the 800s I wonder?

Nothing confirmed about mk5s to Chiltern as yet.

There aren't enough of them to replace the Inter7City HSTs anyway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is welcome news and has no doubt given some fairly well paid people a few sleepless nights. Given that the decision to replace not only involves spending a considerable sum of money that they are widely reported not to have and also a bit of a u-turn should said procurement involve second-hand stock that might be available fairly quickly and could therefore go into service early. On paper. However, this procurement process is pretty much on schedule as per the schedule announced back when the fleet first arrived


Given the above mentioned austerity, I would certainly not rule out meridians or mk5 or maybe even some of the voyagers that cross country are not taking? Or perhaps a combination of several things, okay? So microfleece cause more problems and expense. But I am quite convinced that even if this were the route they went down, they would not be anywhere near the bottomless money pit that the current HST operation surely is, given expensive repairs and maintenance. And no doubt fairly hefty compensation for passengers whose services have been cancelled or short formed and who have simply been left behind in the middle of nowhere because the best they could do to at least keep the train running was substitute a 2 car

Going back to money, if I were in charge of this myself, I think I would probably prioritise the services that run from Edinburgh and Glasgow to both Aberdeen and Inverness for replacement at the fastest speed possible and then perhaps instigate a heavy refurbishment and life extension for a number of 170s for Inverness Aberdeen and various other feeder services in and out of the core intercity network. And before anybody asks yes I know I really despise 170s but it seems vaguely logical given the straight and financial times everywhere. But if the media is to be believed at the moment in particular north of the border

 

[kkong]

My money will be on class 222's or the mk5s and class 68s

I don't see how the 222 would meet the Minister's desire for the new trains to "provide more comfort and accessibility for passengers".

 

[kkong]

Given the above mentioned austerity, I would certainly not rule out meridians or mk5 or maybe even some of the voyagers that cross country are not taking?

perhaps instigate a heavy refurbishment and life extension for a number of 170s for Inverness Aberdeen and various other feeder services in and out of the core intercity network.

Neither 170s or 22x are compatible with the stated desire to improve comfort and accessibility for passengers.

 

[Vectron383]

This isn’t surprising, especially given all the issues with the HST fleet since their introduction. While I’m convinced that the FLIRT family is by far the best solution available, I’ll be surprised if they choose them. As others have pointed out, a longer time period for procurement may well be an advantage, given the precarious financial position right now. Politically speaking, there’s also a fair chance that in 5 years’ time it’ll be ‘someone else’s problem’.

 

[Joe La Taxi]

100% the tender is going to a new fleet manufacturer. CAF will probably get the contract to build new trains. HST will run until 2032 with a big farewell on the last one.

 

[northscots]

My money will be on class 222's or the mk5s and class 68s

It won't be mk5. There aren't enough of them to replace 24 HST sets.

 

[cf111]

Neither 170s or 22x are compatible with the stated desire to improve comfort and accessibility for passengers.

A 22x reliably running the timetabled service with a consistent number of carriages would be a vast improvement to both comfort and accessibility compared to being rammed on the only venerable 158 left in the depot after the diagrammed HST fails.

I'd be fine with Meridians or Voyagers if it's not going to be new stock. There's absolutely nothing wrong with either of them. Locomotive hauled stock would be nice but to be honest after the last few years I just want something reliable that has enough seats and luggage space.

 

[Envoy]

GWR need a new fleet of trains for services such as Cardiff to Portsmouth/Penzance. TfW will need in future something to replace the loco hauled (Class 67) Mk4 sets on Manchester to south Wales services. Wonder if common ground can be found with Scotrail to create a large order that would get a discount?

 

[poffle]

A 22x reliably running the timetabled service with a consistent number of carriages would be a vast improvement to both comfort and accessibility compared to being rammed on the only venerable 158 left in the depot after the diagrammed HST fails.

I'd be fine with Meridians or Voyagers if it's not going to be new stock. There's absolutely nothing wrong with either of them. Locomotive hauled stock would be nice but to be honest after the last few years I just want something reliable that has enough seats and luggage space.

I'm not sure 22x and plenty of luggage space really go together that well. Personal experience of 221s on long distance in summer is of luggage piled up on seats and in aisles due to almost complete absence of luggage storage space and overhead racks too small to fit anything because of the tilting profile.

 

[DelW]

Doesn't "support efforts to decarbonise Scotland's railways" suggest new bi-mode stock, rather than reuse of existing stock released from elsewhere?

Re-using existing trains currently stored out of use has a lower carbon footprint than building new. However that only works if there is no other home for the stored fleet ... and if the resource consumption in service is broadly similar.

 

[Speed43125]

GWR need a new fleet of trains for services such as Cardiff to Portsmouth/Penzance. TfW will need in future something to replace the loco hauled (Class 67) Mk4 sets on Manchester to south Wales services. Wonder if common ground can be found with Scotrail to create a large order that would get a discount?

I think that probably already exists with the LNER CAF order, a presumably piggyback order from GC and then another order to follow from Scotrail, albeit likely with a slightly different set of requirements.

FLIRTS are very expensive and unlikely to be chosen when money is tight.
Hitachi have priced themselves out of further 80x orders, as we're repeatedly told.
Anything else from Siemens or Bombardier would have to be a new design and that seems tricky to meet a 2028 EIS.

 

[InTheEastMids]

222s are already 20 years old. Even if Scotrail can weasel out of their 2030 commitment and bring them in as they become available (2026-ish) 222s would need a comprehensive refurb (the recovered seats are already looking scruffy) to deliver on "more comfort and accessibility".
St Pancras P1-4 can still be unpleasant as they are quite smoky; they won't seem like a "reduced emissions" solution when they're rumbling away inside Queen Street or wherever. Even fitting NOx abatement may be a challenge and they are surely too old to start messing around with batteries.

From a political perspective, if these trains are no longer good enough for the Midland Main Line (the bottom rung of intercity operators) then I don't think they will be seen as a fitting flagship to Scotrail's fleet.A stopgap at best. Assuming Scotrail place an order for new trains for 2030, then on current industry performance I can easily see Scotrail needing something to fill the gap until 2034.

 

[InvHst]

Not enough 68s that's been confirmed already. 222s I doubt would be useful due to luggage space and lengths of them tbh

 

[SamCam]

I think that probably already exists with the LNER CAF order, a presumably piggyback order from GC and then another order to follow from Scotrail, albeit likely with a slightly different set of requirements.

FLIRTS are very expesnive and unlikely to be chosen when money is tight.
Hitachi have priced themselves out of further 80x orders, as we're repeatedly told.
Anything else from Siemens or Bombardier would have to be a new design and that seems tricky to meet a 2028 EIS.

I agree - while FLIRTS would undoubtedly be the best suited to the fleet needs, given the budget constraints some sort of CAF variant on the 397/whatever they're making from LNER seems likely, and would still do the job pretty well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

222s are getting long in the tooth, they'd only be useful as a stopgap. And they'd only be useful as a stopgap if the HST availability drops even further.

The HST leases ending in 2030 would tie in nicely with procurement for brand new trains. The LNER CAFs have a 4 year lead in, so Scotrail putting the ITT out soon would suggest the first CAFs (if it is indeed CAFs- if not, insert manufacturer of choice) could be delivered in early 2029.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

222s are already 20 years old. Even if Scotrail can weasel out of their 2030 commitment and bring them in as they become available (2026-ish) 222s would need a comprehensive refurb (the recovered seats are already looking scruffy) to deliver on "more comfort and accessibility".
St Pancras P1-4 can still be unpleasant as they are quite smoky; they won't seem like a "reduced emissions" solution when they're rumbling away inside Queen Street or wherever. Even fitting NOx abatement may be a challenge and they are surely too old to start messing around with batteries.

From a political perspective, if these trains are no longer good enough for the Midland Main Line (the bottom rung of intercity operators) then I don't think they will be seen as a fitting flagship to Scotrail's fleet.A stopgap at best. Assuming Scotrail place an order for new trains for 2030, then on current industry performance I can easily see Scotrail needing something to fill the gap until 2034.

A dependable intercity service would be a huge improvement in itself.

The current situation is chaotic as it’s a case of maybe having a run down HST, maybe a turbostar, maybe a single 158 so overcrowded you can forget about comfort. This lack of clarity really pushes a lot of people away from the railway.

As for onboard quality - ScotRail introduced the “classic” HST sets which were in a terrible condition when they arrived. The current fleet aren’t great either.

They’re effectively three coaches long - the buffets have been closed for years and no-one buys 1st class tickets because there’s little guarantee that the train will actually have one, and there’s in practice never complimentary food or drink.

At this point, anything from the 21st century would do.

 

[Towers]

A dependable intercity service would be a huge improvement in itself.

The current situation is chaotic as it’s a case of maybe having a run down HST, maybe a turbostar, maybe a single 158 so overcrowded you can forget about comfort. This lack of clarity really pushes a lot of people away from the railway.

As for onboard quality - ScotRail introduced the “classic” HST sets which were in a terrible condition when they arrived. The current fleet aren’t great either.

They’re effectively three coaches long - the buffets have been closed for years and no-one buys 1st class tickets because there’s little guarantee that the train will actually have one, and there’s in practice never complimentary food or drink.

At this point, anything from the 21st century would do.

Having been familiar with the HSTs when they were at GWR, what about their condition was “terrible” when they arrived?

I seem to recall them having relatively comfortable seats, a near-silent internal ambience when the saloon doors were kept in working order, a ride that far outweighs just about anything that has entered service in the last decade or so, and a standard of First Class that looks like the Belmond Pullman compared to what has become acceptable as the norm in the years since. Old, yes very definitely. Terrible? I disagree!

That’s not to say that they aren’t overdue replacement, but there are plenty of folk suffering daily journeys on all manner of shoddy newer stock who’d happily exchange it for the far superior stuff that we managed to design 50 years ago. It’s sad that Scotrail couldn’t or wouldn’t ensure that the HSTs offered a decent journey experience under their custodianship.

On a side note, please no more 80x!!

 

[FlyingPotato]

What about the Siemens Desiro verve they have recently promoted, I know they designed an IC model at one point

 

[Iskra]

222's would presumably be the cheapest option, but Flirt's probably the best in the long-term, with 8XX probably a mediocre but more expensive option. 222's would seem a bit pointless as they in turn would presumably need replacing not too long after themselves.

The tender not strongly hinting at 222's is incredibly positive for XC, who could presumably easily swallow the entire 222 fleet to finally provide a realistic amount of capacity on their routes.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Having been familiar with the HSTs when they were at GWR, what about their condition was “terrible” when they arrived?

I seem to recall them having relatively comfortable seats, a near-silent internal ambience when the saloon doors were kept in working order, a ride that far outweighs just about anything that has entered service in the last decade or so, and a standard of First Class that looks like the Belmond Pullman compared to what has become acceptable as the norm in the years since. Old, yes very definitely. Terrible? I disagree!

That’s not to say that they aren’t overdue replacement, but there are plenty of folk suffering daily journeys on all manner of shoddy newer stock who’d happily exchange it for the far superior stuff that we managed to design 50 years ago. It’s sad that Scotrail couldn’t or wouldn’t ensure that the HSTs offered a decent journey experience under their custodianship.

On a side note, please no more 80x!!

The unrefurbished Scotrail sets were in poor condition overall. I could list off a lot of things, but I remember that the sockets did not reliably work, seats were worn/uncomfortable and some coaches were very visibly worn/unclean. This is now mostly resolved. Though it’s a few years since the latest refurbishment so they are showing their age again. Notably a lot of the internal doors are now non-functional, resulting in draughts and noise.

Some of the sets leaked and looked/smelled damp. This is mostly resolved with the refurbished sets, but not entirely. Corrosion/leaks remain a major reason so many coaches are out of service.

Reliability has always been pretty awful. Again, let’s remember the number of sets in long term storage.

You reference the first class - it’s almost always empty save for off duty staff. The buffet counter is unusable. The seats might be nice but 99% of passengers never enjoy them.

What most regular passengers do experience though is routine disruptions, cancellations and set substitution.

 

[father_jack]

GWR need a new fleet of trains for services such as Cardiff to Portsmouth/Penzance. TfW will need in future something to replace the loco hauled (Class 67) Mk4 sets on Manchester to south Wales services. Wonder if common ground can be found with Scotrail to create a large order that would get a discount?

FGW/GWR and ATW to an extent missed the boat when West Midlands were getting the 172s.

 

[anthony263]

FGW/GWR and ATW to an extent missed the boat when West Midlands were getting the 172s.

DFT cancelled an order for FGW to get a fleet of 4 carriage class 172s because of the GWML electrification