What stock will Scotrail procure to replace HSTs?

[ScotTrains]

Whatever they go with, I just hope they have good, comfortable seats. A small kitchen in 1st class would be nice too.
The current 1st class catering offering is shocking.
The Scotrail HST is such a waste of an opportunity; they could be providing a quality Scottish breakfast/dinner offering on certain services leaving at peak time. The Welsh have been doing this for years.

 

[John R]

Re-using existing trains currently stored out of use has a lower carbon footprint than building new. However that only works if there is no other home for the stored fleet ... and if the resource consumption in service is broadly similar.

Somehow I think it would be a very hard sell politically to suggest that decarbonisation is achieved by reusing diesel stock that's over 20 years old. As the existing HST stock is also "reused" (and even older), I don't think it would be logical either.

 

[380101]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say that the 222s will be units to replace the HSTs, and that the procurement tender will be worded in such a way that only the 222s will meet the criteria.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with you, that or the mk5

 

[father_jack]

DFT cancelled an order for FGW to get a fleet of 4 carriage class 172s because of the GWML electrification

It was the 143/150/158 routes needed replacement but First Group didn't push the matter......

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say that the 222s will be units to replace the HSTs, and that the procurement tender will be worded in such a way that only the 222s will meet the criteria.

The 222’s could even be reformed to better suit demand as well. More 7 cars and reduce most of the 5 cars back to 4 cars. Bigger sets on Glasgow and Edinburgh services from the north and then smaller sets on the Aberdeen to Inverness line.

The magic number for eradicating 158’s and 170’s on the aforementioned routes is about 30, for those interested. There are only 27 222’s.

 

[LudwigTails]

welp i guess this is it then. There will forever more no more good trains to be ran long distance in the UK. All the IETs sucks, the class 397 is by CAF, both of which all have cracks in their bogey because goverment didnt pay them enough to build actual good trains. Flirt looks ugly and doesnt even look like train the only saving grace are the voyager family.
Hell pray god the long distance travel in the UK is looking really depressing.
Unless the whatever other hull trains department doesnt plan on getting 222. Scotrail can have them. Over better than anything for IET that is horribly built and i am tired of seeing them. They are just not trains.

 

[43096]

I would have thought an IET version makes sense for a number of reasons.

Why does ScotRail need a 125/140mph train?

 

[Lg_]

I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with you, that or the mk5

I don't think there are enough MK5/68's to replace the HST's and I can't imagine a leasing company having an appetite for ordering more given TPE only kept them for 5 years before returning them.

My guess would be 222's used units or unfortunately CAF for a new build unit.

 

[aem7ac]

Scotland to get new Intercity fleet | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

The Scottish Government announced today that procurement will begin to replace its Intercity trains.


The procurement, which will be led by ScotRail on behalf of Transport Scotland, will seek a replacement for the High Speed Train (HST) fleet which operates on its InterCity routes between Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, and Inverness.

As discussed in other subforums, Transport Scotland announced the replacement of the ScotRail HST fleet, with replacements arriving in roughly 4 years time.

Any ideas as to what could be replacing them? I'm thinking new builds, but I'm curious to hear other thoughts.

 

[northscots]

I don't think there are enough MK5/68's to replace the HST's and I can't imagine a leasing company having an appetite for ordering more given TPE only kept them for 5 years before returning them.

My guess would be 222's used units or unfortunately CAF for a new build unit.

This is entirely speculation but I'd suggest the 222's on something like a 10 year lease prior to a long term replacement.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Have grand Central or grand Union or whatever. They're calling themselves for the sterling to London. Open Access gig. Definitely signed a lease on the remaining Avanti voyagers? I'm just wondering if they could also be thrown into the mix allowing conversion of services such as the Dundee and Perth to Edinburgh and Glasgow semi-fasts to also be converted, which in turn would allow the worst of the sprinter fleet to be retired and a general dmu shuffle round cascading 170s two different routes

 

[Davester50]

My fear is a diesel electric derivative of the 385, spartan nasty things.

 

[43096]

This is entirely speculation but I'd suggest the 222's on something like a 10 year lease prior to a long term replacement.

Have grand Central or grand Union or whatever. They're calling themselves for the sterling to London. Open Access gig. Definitely signed a lease on the remaining Avanti voyagers? I'm just wondering if they could also be thrown into the mix allowing conversion of services such as the Dundee and Perth to Edinburgh and Glasgow semi-fasts to also be converted, which in turn would allow the worst of the sprinter fleet to be retired and a general dmu shuffle round cascading 170s two different routes

I’m intrigued as to how you think fuel hungry 222s fit with the dr-carbonisation agenda referenced in the press release.

 

[northscots]

The 222’s could even be reformed to better suit demand as well. More 7 cars and reduce most of the 5 cars back to 4 cars. Bigger sets on Glasgow and Edinburgh services from the north and then smaller sets on the Aberdeen to Inverness line.

The magic number for eradicating 158’s and 170’s on the aforementioned routes is about 30, for those interested. There are only 27 222’s.

The diagrams don't really work that way. Not unusual for a set to do Edinburgh to Aberdeen then run to Inverness and then down to Glasgow for example. There's also some through services such as Glasgow to Inverness via Aberdeen. Think we'd be more likely to see 6 car rather than a mix of 7 and 4. Makes it it easier for swapping out sets as well

 

[trainswitheddy]

Mk5as are unlikely I'd of thought since not enough of them to replace the HST sets completely. If not new build maybe 222s? Off lease soon from EMR, no confirmed home yet (aside from 2 to Hull Trains if the Sheffield proposal goes according to plan)

 

[Stathern Jc]

My fear is a diesel electric derivative of the 385, spartan nasty things.

My thoughts entirely.
An absolutely horrific prospect for any journey over an hour, let alone the 3 1/2 hours from Inverness and back.
And is the catering going to remain at the same beyond basic level of service?

Many passengers on the Highland Main Line will continue to plan journeys around The Chieftain.

 

[Blindtraveler]

My fear is a diesel electric derivative of the 385, spartan nasty things.

A this would be horrendous as would whatever kind of dmu might be offered by caf, the latter would provide little better travelling experience than the current 170 horror show and the former word not be very nice either. In all honesty, if they're going for new build, I suspect they would simply obtain some build slots at Hitachi as soon as the 810 is finished, but I would hope that Derby also shelve of their principles about building anything with a diesel engine again and put a design in. Assuming as has been widely expected that the contract is not worded in such a way that we get the meridians, which for me personally would be the best option

 

[northscots]

My thoughts entirely.
An absolutely horrific prospect for any journey over an hour, let alone the 3 1/2 hours from Inverness and back.
And is the catering going to remain at the same beyond basic level of service?

Many passengers on the Highland Main Line will continue to plan journeys around The Chieftain.

The 385 is the same family of trains as the 800, which is what operates The Cheftain

 

[Chester1]

Have grand Central or grand Union or whatever. They're calling themselves for the sterling to London. Open Access gig. Definitely signed a lease on the remaining Avanti voyagers? I'm just wondering if they could also be thrown into the mix allowing conversion of services such as the Dundee and Perth to Edinburgh and Glasgow semi-fasts to also be converted, which in turn would allow the worst of the sprinter fleet to be retired and a general dmu shuffle round cascading 170s two different routes

That would be a very expensive way of replacing sprinters!

 

[Vectron383]

welp i guess this is it then. There will forever more no more good trains to be ran long distance in the UK. All the IETs sucks, the class 397 is by CAF, both of which all have cracks in their bogey because goverment didnt pay them enough to build actual good trains. Flirt looks ugly and doesnt even look like train the only saving grace are the voyager family.
Hell pray god the long distance travel in the UK is looking really depressing.
Unless the whatever other hull trains department doesnt plan on getting 222. Scotrail can have them. Over better than anything for IET that is horribly built and i am tired of seeing them. They are just not trains.

FLIRTs are probably the best option for the routes ScotRail are looking to replace. Can be future proofed for wires, very positive reviews from GA and Wales, level boarding and a decent onboard ambience, especially when compared to anything built by CAF or Hitachi. However I’m sure they’ll go for something much worse instead.

 

[swt_passenger]

The majority of the new thread in “rolling stock” was basically wondering about what the replacement trains might be, but it’s now been split…

(Post was written before a number of threads were split and/or merged so makes no sense now.)

 

[SamCam]

FLIRTs are probably the best option for the routes ScotRail are looking to replace. Can be future proofed for wires, very positive reviews from GA and Wales, level boarding and a decent onboard ambience, especially when compared to anything built by CAF or Hitachi. However I’m sure they’ll go for something much worse instead.

Yes, particularly as the spec won't be for something 125mph capable.

 

[Stathern Jc]

The 385 is the same family of trains as the 800, which is what operates The Cheftain

I'm sitting on The Chieftain now and, while much has been said about the Azumas, I find it far more comfortable and pleasant than any 385 I've ever been on.
And after a delay because of a fallen tree near Blair Athol the catering team have done an extra couple of runs with both the hot and cold drinks.
I still believe that unless ScotRail manage to specify and obtain something of a reasonable standard, and provide a good service with it, many travellers from the North will continue to look to The Chieftain as the first choice.

 

[Davester50]

The 385 is the same family of trains as the 800, which is what operates The Chieftain

We know they are both Hitachi A Train. You could use the same comparison to say the Class 455 is from the same family as the IC7s!
How they are specified and fitted out is the key.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I’m intrigued as to how you think fuel hungry 222s fit with the dr-carbonisation agenda referenced in the press release.

Can some engines be removed to reduce the overall weight of the unit? E.g. if a 5-car unit needs five engines for high performance up to 125mph, would three engines give adequate performance at up to 100mph?

 

[Vectron383]

I doubt it- some of the gradients and track on lines up North can be quite challenging and need a good power to weight ratio. lighter trains like the FLIRTs could get away with less engines.

 

[jfowkes]

Flirt looks ugly and doesnt even look like train the only saving grace are the voyager family.

They look like trains to me! And far more importantly, they can have level boarding. Now that GA have proved that long distance services can work with FLIRTs, they (or another provider that can do level boarding) should be standard for new stock procurement. Continuing to buy non-accessible stock is insulting and discriminatory.

 

[aem7ac]

The majority of the new thread in “rolling stock” was basically wondering about what the replacement trains might be, but it’s now been split…

I had made this thread before the split. Oh well… hopefully one of the two speculative threads get locked now so we don’t have to deal with another split.

 

[Vectron383]

They look like trains to me! And far more importantly, they can have level boarding. Now that GA have proved that long distance services can work with FLIRTs, they (or another provider that can do level boarding) should be standard for new stock procurement. Continuing to buy non-accessible stock is insulting and discriminatory.

Completely agree on this. level boarding should be non-negotiable.