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What to do with HS2 and NPR

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HST43257

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Ok so let’s say passenger numbers drop by about 30% as a result of less full-week commuting (started by COVID)

With less money available and less commuting due to take place in the next 20 (or so) years, where does HS2 stand? Is its business case really still so strong? Is the capacity relief really needed anymore? Would love to hear some thoughts below.


Personally, I’d say that London to Birmingham and Crewe should be focused on and built ASAP. From there, I’d look at whether the branches to Wigan and Manchester should really be built in their currently planned form. Perhaps there could be a 4 track alignment to the Wilmslow area (middle tracks are high speed all the way from Crewe) then going underground and doing a sharp left and a sharp right to go to Manchester Airport, by which time it’d be on the NPR route into Piccadilly, where I’d like a low level station. That’d ensure there’s minimal future capacity problems, with a lot of stuff taken away from the Stockport and Piccadilly route.

Now what about NPR (or HS3/HSN)? Personally, I’d say it should be built in full, from Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington, then onto Leeds via Bradford then finally Church Fenton/York. This’d all be segregated from the rest of the network as planned. This is a major capacity relief for the existing TransPennine route, which itself could take some of the Hope Valley freight trains as long as Sheffield and Meadowhall can take that - maybe a couple of services per hour through there would have be cut as a result of the pandemic. There’ll be a way hopefully.

As for the Eastern Leg of HS2, I think it should be built, but much later. The need is a little less, but still there. Start with the bit to East Midlands Hub, then to the Sheffield link, then to Leeds/York parts.


But, yes, if anyone has any suggestions, they'd be great to hear.
 
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takno

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Not really sure what full-week commuting has to do with HS2 to be honest. If anything all this much-vaunted working from home will lead people to move further away from work, and travel there once or twice a week by HS2.

Your specific suggestions, sounds like they would involve a whole new set of plans to be drawn up at massive expense, resulting in a massively sub-optimal railway. Basically most of the cost for essentially none of the benefits. They also seem to focus very heavily on the North-West, basically shafting Yorkshire, the north-east and Scotland. I wouldn't care to venture a guess which part of the country you come from yourself.
 

D365

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Not really sure what full-week commuting has to do with HS2 to be honest. If anything all this much-vaunted working from home will lead people to move further away from work, and travel there once or twice a week by HS2.
Absolutely agree. This is a key benefit of high-speed rail that the "anti" mob seem to be missing.
 

HST43257

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They also seem to focus very heavily on the North-West, basically shafting Yorkshire, the north-east and Scotland. I wouldn't care to venture a guess which part of the country you come from yourself.
Surprised as you may be, I’m a Yorkshire lad. Also I personally believe that the London to Crewe stretch is the most important. Perhaps I’m wrong about the changes to the Manchester leg, maybe it should go on its own route in via the Airport.

As a temporary measure (pre Eastern Leg), HS2 can go via NPR to get to Yorkshire and the North East. I’d calculate that to take about 1h25 London to Leeds (big improvement) and 1h40 London to York (little improvement). That’d be stopping only at Leeds and York after Euston and Old Oak, running at a 2tph frequency. If these services were just Manchester terminator extensions, I’d say it’d be journey times of something closer to 1h35 and 1h50. Still beneficial to Leeds, but only worth it for York on capacity grounds.

When HS2 Eastern Leg comes along, it’ll be (at best) 1h20 to Leeds and 1h25 to York. So Leeds’ time difference change is pretty much fully achieved through NPR, but the HS2 route coming in means more Liverpool services to Yorkshire and the North East and less issues in Manchester.
 

takno

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Surprised as you may be, I’m a Yorkshire lad. Also I personally believe that the London to Crewe stretch is the most important. Perhaps I’m wrong about the changes to the Manchester leg, maybe it should go on its own route in via the Airport.

As a temporary measure (pre Eastern Leg), HS2 can go via NPR to get to Yorkshire and the North East. I’d calculate that to take about 1h25 London to Leeds (big improvement) and 1h40 London to York (little improvement). That’d be stopping only at Leeds and York after Euston and Old Oak, running at a 2tph frequency. If these services were just Manchester terminator extensions, I’d say it’d be journey times of something closer to 1h35 and 1h50. Still beneficial to Leeds, but only worth it for York on capacity grounds.

When HS2 Eastern Leg comes along, it’ll be (at best) 1h20 to Leeds and 1h25 to York. So Leeds’ time difference change is pretty much fully achieved through NPR, but the HS2 route coming in means more Liverpool services to Yorkshire and the North East and less issues in Manchester.
On the downside, there's a well-developed and deliverable route for the HS2 eastern leg, whereas NPR is a pretty-much fictional mega-tunnel through the Pennines, and another tunnel under Bradford, which would likely to be insanely more costly than HS2 east. I've been to Manchester, and I'm not at all clear what its got that can't bettered on the right side of the Pennines anyway.
 

Halifaxlad

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On the downside, there's a well-developed and deliverable route for the HS2 eastern leg, whereas NPR is a pretty-much fictional mega-tunnel through the Pennines, and another tunnel under Bradford, which would likely to be insanely more costly than HS2 east. I've been to Manchester, and I'm not at all clear what its got that can't bettered on the right side of the Pennines anyway.
You're obviously not a RAIL reader, in the December to January issue (921) Mark Thurston, describes the Eastern leg in particular around Sheffield as a 'mess' in his interview with Nigel Harris. Page 28 for those interested.
 

HST43257

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On the downside, there's a well-developed and deliverable route for the HS2 eastern leg, whereas NPR is a pretty-much fictional mega-tunnel through the Pennines, and another tunnel under Bradford, which would likely to be insanely more costly than HS2 east. I've been to Manchester, and I'm not at all clear what its got that can't bettered on the right side of the Pennines anyway.
NPR brings more benefits. HS2 links to NPR routes, serving Liverpool PLUS potentially Leeds, York and the North East
 

takno

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You're obviously not a RAIL reader, in the December to January issue (921) Mark Thurston, describes the Eastern leg in particular around Sheffield as a 'mess' in his interview with Nigel Harris. Page 28 for those interested.
Do people really still read RAIL? The fact that there are some issues around Sheffield which still need a bit of tidying up doesn't really detract from the fact that it's a reasonably well-planned and probably deliverable scheme, whereas the Manchester-Bradford-Leeds section of NPR is an uncosted and essentially undeliverable pipe dream.
 

4-SUB 4732

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What I would personally argue for in this case is the building of the entirety (so no classic connection at Rugeley) knowing that the capacity isn't needed quite so urgently. Therefore, build Manchester and Preston / Wigan straight to London with Birmingham; and the connection to the East Midlands. Upgrade Erewash, electrify Midland Main Line, do some work on capacity around Sheffield and Nottingham and upgrade the East Coast. Aka, set up the rolling programme and make it a lengthy process for surety of jobs and really crack on with it. No nonsense.
 

Halifaxlad

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Do people really still read RAIL? The fact that there are some issues around Sheffield which still need a bit of tidying up doesn't really detract from the fact that it's a reasonably well-planned and probably deliverable scheme, whereas the Manchester-Bradford-Leeds section of NPR is an uncosted and essentially undeliverable pipe dream.
Occasionally, as for 'some issues' not having the capacity to fulfil the aspired times & destination is hardly a minor detail that can be ironed out later!
 

Bletchleyite

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Not really sure what full-week commuting has to do with HS2 to be honest. If anything all this much-vaunted working from home will lead people to move further away from work, and travel there once or twice a week by HS2.

But if they could do that by Avanti West Coast then HS2 becomes of limited purpose. Saving 20 minutes isn't that considerable.

The big justification for HS2 is south WCML capacity. If commuting drops to the extent that the Saturday service would do all week, that case is hugely weakened.

I think "carry on for now but be prepared to re-evaluate".
 

Ianno87

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But if they could do that by Avanti West Coast then HS2 becomes of limited purpose. Saving 20 minutes isn't that considerable.

Good job that most actual journey time savings are more than 20 minutes in that case.
 

Bletchleyite

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Good job that most actual journey time savings are more than 20 minutes in that case.

It was a random number. The point is that the time savings are not in my view worth it alone - south WCML capacity is what really sells it. If that capacity is no longer needed, the case is weakened.
 

miami

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49 minutes from Crewe to Old Oak Common then 15 minutes to Canary wharf, total time under 70 minutes, about half the time as now. Birmingham interchange is under an hour.

With less money available and less commuting due to take place in the next 20 (or so) years

I'm not aware of "less money available", that's a political decision. Less commuting for the next 20 years (even if true) doesn't really matter to a railway that's not due to fully open for the next 20 years.
 

Ianno87

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49 minutes from Crewe to Old Oak Common then 15 minutes to Canary wharf, total time under 70 minutes, about half the time as now. Birmingham interchange is under an hour.

HS2 will be transformationl in terms of bringing areas such as Wigan and Runcorn within a sensible 1-2 times per week commute to Canary Wharf.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not aware of "less money available", that's a political decision. Less commuting for the next 20 years (even if true) doesn't really matter to a railway that's not due to fully open for the next 20 years.

Commuting will continue to decrease as alternative technologies improve.

HS2 will be transformationl in terms of bringing areas such as Wigan and Runcorn within a sensible 1-2 times per week commute to Canary Wharf.

I'm not convinced we should be spending a fortune to encourage that.
 

Purple Orange

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I doubt NPR will reach Liverpool (it will be Chat Moss to Victoria as it is today).

I doubt we will see the eastern branch appear (maybe a short stretch similar to phase 2a to Crewe).

I think we will see the latest HS2 surface Piccadilly plans realised, with the junction to Leeds connecting to the Trans Pennnine line via Stalybridge & Huddersfield.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fits the "levelling up" agenda; giving the residents of the north access to Canary Wharf (and other) employment.

It sort-of does, but long distance commuting (even a couple of days a week) is not really to be encouraged, I more envisaged what you might get as being people moving out to the likes of the West Midlands if they work in London, or maybe the Western Lakes (a very poor area at present) if they work in Manchester. It's also not really offering jobs that can't already be done, because there are already people doing "London" jobs remotely, like me - it genuinely wouldn't be a problem if I lived in Manchester as things are now, I just don't.

True "levelling up" is moving the work (and providing quality fibre to the home broadband to every house in the UK), not building expensive high speed railways.

To me the only sensible case for HS2 is south WCML capacity. If that is no longer needed (i.e. you can get all the capacity you'll need for years by splitting some 9-car Pendolinos to take the remainder to 11 and buying some 10-car 80x to fill the gap, and by going to 240m on all local trains with a few platform extensions/SDO implementations where needed) then to me the case for HS2 collapses. Though the case for a Euston rebuild (incorporating the HS2 land) with say 16 or even 20 260m platforms would grow.

NPR my view is maybe more mixed, because 2-track mixed traffic railways (such as the Transpennine routes) are difficult to operate reliably. What I would say is that we should be looking to get to 240m trains on things like TPE* before we look to add more routes. I think I'd favour electrification and lengthening on existing routes, with the spare money spent on electrifying urban transport (both buses and a few more tram schemes like Liverpool and Leeds), because to me the environment and reducing/removing dependency on oil is much more important than a slightly faster railway.

We just don't operate what we have effectively or efficiently with short trains running about the place.

* So I'd envisage things like double 802s on all TPE services before we bleat that it's full. Frequency could be provided by portion working, using a core 4tph service (2 Liverpool, 2 Manc Picc or Airport via Ordsall if you prefer), or just planned connections, i.e. a separate York-Newcastle service meets the Scarborough each hour, and a separate York-Scarborough meets the Newcastle.
 
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miami

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To me the only sensible case for HS2 is south WCML capacity. If that is no longer needed (i.e. you can get all the capacity you'll need for years by splitting some 9-car Pendolinos to take the remainder to 11 and buying some 10-car 80x to fill the gap, and by going to 240m on all local trains with a few platform extensions/SDO implementations where needed) then to me the case for HS2 collapses. Though the case for a Euston rebuild (incorporating the HS2 land) with say 16 or even 20 260m platforms would grow.

So while the government slashes TfN's budget


And you want the midlands and north to continue to have slower trains, you advocate for northern taxpayers to pay for Euston to be spruced up so there's somewhere nice to wait for Tring trains?
 

Bletchleyite

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And you want the midlands and north to continue to have slower trains, you advocate for northern taxpayers to pay for Euston to be spruced up so there's somewhere nice to wait for Tring trains?

No, I advocate for the taxpayer to fund extra, longer platforms throughout the network to allow 240-260m trains to operate on all mainline services rather than excessive frequencies. I quite like the Euston "Great Hall" as it is.

And Euston benefits the North. Remember it's not just WMT. There are (normally) 9tph of InterCity trains from the Midlands and North.
 

HST43257

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May we see a case where these projects should go ahead in full, but 10-15 years later than planned?
 

HST43257

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To me the only sensible case for HS2 is south WCML capacity. If that is no longer needed then to me the case for HS2 collapses.
But by the time HS2 comes along (call it 20 years), will we or will we not quite probably be as good as back to a full service?
 

Senex

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HS2 will be transformationl in terms of bringing areas such as Wigan and Runcorn within a sensible 1-2 times per week commute to Canary Wharf.
Do we really want a country in which towns a couple of hundred miles from London deteriorate into more dormitory towns for the bankers and their servants? And what happens if the City of London, after various political changes, loses some of its huge international significance and comes to generate rather less wealth and employment?
 

Ianno87

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Do we really want a country in which towns a couple of hundred miles from London deteriorate into more dormitory towns for the bankers and their servants? And what happens if the City of London, after various political changes, loses some of its huge international significance and comes to generate rather less wealth and employment?

There is far, far more to central London employment than "bankers".
 
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