What to do with Mk 3 EMU coaches upon withdrawal

[Terry Tait]

With a substantial quantity of Mk 3 EMU coaches being withdrawn in the next few years I have been thinking about what else to do with them rather than scraping, maybe converting some into cheap temporary housing for homeless people for instance, what do others think?

 

[Peter Kelford]

What about railtours? They can operate at reasonable speed, not blocking traffic, are modern with air conditioners and powered doors etc and so on. Also, why should we be scrapping them? Park them in an old marshalling yard for a few years and when some more electrification gets completed, rather than signing a headline order for new stock that then gets delayed and causes a disappointment for passengers, just give the EMUs a lick of paint and some new lights/seats etc and put them back in service.

 

[Dr Hoo]

With a substantial quantity of Mk 3 EMU coaches being withdrawn in the next few years I have been thinking about what else to do with them rather than scraping, maybe converting some into cheap temporary housing for homeless people for instance, what do others think?

Given last week’s furore over people being ‘housed’ in converted shipping containers and office blocks I can’t see that one gaining much political traction.

 

[HSTEd]

Modify multiple working equipment on them and operate them with Class 68s as bimode sets.

8 car sets with locomotives, push pull

 

[pdeaves]

Good vehicles they may be, but they are old and falling apart. Railtour use is probably the most appropriate main line reuse.

 

[edwin_m]

Some New York subway cars were dumped in the Atlantic to create a new habitat for marine life.

 

[randyrippley]

fill them with concrete and dump them offshore at Dawlish as coast protection

 

[edwin_m]

fill them with concrete and dump them offshore at Dawlish as coast protection

Make sure to use enough concrete though. "The service is cancelled due to a train being washed up on the line".

 

[tranzitjim]

I am a novice Australian in respect to mk3 EMUS. What information can people provide about these interesting trains please.

 

[Journeyman]

With a substantial quantity of Mk 3 EMU coaches being withdrawn in the next few years I have been thinking about what else to do with them rather than scraping, maybe converting some into cheap temporary housing for homeless people for instance, what do others think?

They're getting old, they're increasingly unreliable, they're often not up to modern standards of comfort and amenity, and there's not a huge amount of demand for them. They also have massive corrosion problems. Stop scrabbling about to find uses for them!

What about railtours? They can operate at reasonable speed, not blocking traffic, are modern with air conditioners and powered doors etc and so on. Also, why should we be scrapping them? Park them in an old marshalling yard for a few years and when some more electrification gets completed, rather than signing a headline order for new stock that then gets delayed and causes a disappointment for passengers, just give the EMUs a lick of paint and some new lights/seats etc and put them back in service.

People want unusual/interesting rolling stock for railtours. They absolutely won't fork out for rides on a 317.

Stick them in a marshalling yard for a few years and they'll get vandalized and will seize up. They'll be no good to anyone.

 

[Journeyman]

I am a novice Australian in respect to mk3 EMUS. What information can people provide about these interesting trains please.

Classes 317 to 322, 455 and 456. They're not particularly interesting, to be honest, and coming very close to the end of their normal working lives (they were built between about 1981 and 1992).

 

[Peter Kelford]

People want unusual/interesting rolling stock for railtours. They absolutely won't fork out for rides on a 317.

Fake pullmans?

 

[pdeaves]

Fake pullmans?

You mean, use a 317 as a basis for something like an AC 5BEL? I like that idea if only for the snigger value (someone else can pay...)!

 

[Journeyman]

You mean, use a 317 as a basis for something like an AC 5BEL? I like that idea if only for the snigger value (someone else can pay...)!

Someone seriously suggested converting 319s into something like that a while back.

I suppose the original BELs were notorious for their poor ride quality, so a 319 has that in common with them!

 

[HSTEd]

They're getting old, they're increasingly unreliable, they're often not up to modern standards of comfort and amenity, and there's not a huge amount of demand for them. They also have massive corrosion problems. Stop scrabbling about to find uses for them!

We still have major demand for rolling stock in various parts of the Country.

The Government wont pay for modern stock, so we must embrace the glorious tradition of the Southern and make do....

 

[Journeyman]

We still have major demand for rolling stock in various parts of the Country.

The Government wont pay for modern stock, so we must embrace the glorious tradition of the Southern and make do....

But is it a demand that Mark 3 EMUs are capable of meeting?

Somewhat came up with the wizard wheeze of slapping diesel engines on some of them. How's that working out?

 

[HSTEd]

Somewhat came up with the wizard wheeze of slapping diesel engines on some of them. How's that working out?

An attempt to squeeze diesel engines into them was always ill advised.
It would be more likely to succeed if we simply attached a locomotive to the formation and modified the locomotive to supply ETS and use the right multiple working.

Turns them into bi-mode trains, and would be easiest with units like the 319 and 365 which already have through wiring for third rail.

 

[Journeyman]

An attempt to squeeze diesel engines into them was always ill advised.
It would be more likely to succeed if we simply attached a locomotive to the formation and modified the locomotive to supply ETS and use the right multiple working.

Turns them into bi-mode trains, and would be easiest with units like the 319 and 365 which already have through wiring for third rail.

There's no "simply" about it. And where are the locomotives supposed to come from?

 

[HSTEd]

There's no "simply" about it.

Simple electrical work will not fall foul of the problems which claimed the 769 scheme, which is that the equipment physically does not fit.

And where are the locomotives supposed to come from?

From a factory?
8 20m cars for the cost of one locomotive is a tiny fraction of the cost of the alternative rolling stock.

 

[edwin_m]

Simple electrical work will not fall foul of the problems which claimed the 769 scheme, which is that the equipment physically does not fit.

Do you have inside information on this? I'm not aware of any statement of what the problem is, other than that the exhaust pipe was out of gauge but that it was easily fixable. With that proviso the equipment clearly does physically fit, as it's been installed and done transit moves on the main line. It's possible that it has been packed so tightly that it doesn't have enough cooling, but that's a separate issue.

 

[Aictos]

What about railtours? They can operate at reasonable speed, not blocking traffic, are modern with air conditioners and powered doors etc and so on. Also, why should we be scrapping them? Park them in an old marshalling yard for a few years and when some more electrification gets completed, rather than signing a headline order for new stock that then gets delayed and causes a disappointment for passengers, just give the EMUs a lick of paint and some new lights/seats etc and put them back in service.

One question though and this is a serious one, why?

 

[HSTEd]

Do you have inside information on this? I'm not aware of any statement of what the problem is, other than that the exhaust pipe was out of gauge but that it was easily fixable. With that proviso the equipment clearly does physically fit, as it's been installed and done transit moves on the main line. It's possible that it has been packed so tightly that it doesn't have enough cooling, but that's a separate issue.

No, but if the exhaust is out of gauge, it means it doesn't fit within the gauge.
And although we have heard that this is easily fixable, we haven't heard about any other serious issues and yet it has still not entered service.

And not enough space for cooling kinda supports it being too tight for the gear.

EDIT:

The more aggressive method for fixing this problem would be, rather than using a locomotive, to build a power car similar to the Stadler system, which could be spliced into the formation using the third rail supply cabling.

One vehicle per set, but I dunno how that would do economically. And would only work on sets rigged for third rail (319s, 365s and such).

 

[edwin_m]

No, but if the exhaust is out of gauge, it means it doesn't fit within the gauge.
And although we have heard that this is easily fixable, we haven't heard about any other serious issues and yet it has still not entered service.

And not enough space for cooling kinda supports it being too tight for the gear.

EDIT:

The more aggressive method for fixing this problem would be, rather than using a locomotive, to build a power car similar to the Stadler system, which could be spliced into the formation using the third rail supply cabling.

One vehicle per set, but I dunno how that would do economically. And would only work on sets rigged for third rail (319s, 365s and such).

Actually I think you'd need to add an extra cable for the return, since third rail units presumably only have a "live" cable linking the shoegear and return into the rails via the wheels of each motor car. With a diesel you'd want to keep the traction power out of the rails.

 

[HSTEd]

Actually I think you'd need to add an extra cable for the return, since third rail units presumably only have a "live" cable linking the shoegear and return into the rails via the wheels of each motor car. With a diesel you'd want to keep the traction power out of the rails.

Do we know what solution the 769s have taken.
This is obviously not an issue on the Class 230s because London Underground practice is not to have a 750V bus.

 

[Journeyman]

Simple electrical work will not fall foul of the problems which claimed the 769 scheme, which is that the equipment physically does not fit.

From a factory?
8 20m cars for the cost of one locomotive is a tiny fraction of the cost of the alternative rolling stock.

I don't think you have any idea how complex what you're proposing is.

There's a serious issue building new diesel locos for the UK, as there's no current design that fits the UK loading gauge and complies with current emissions legislation. There was a limit on the number of Class 68s allowed to be built, and no more are permitted.

Locomotives are also incredibly expensive compared to the cost of multiple unit vehicles.

What you're proposing also involves having to mash up potentially massively incompatible control systems and possibly make extensive alterations to the MUs involved.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think you have any idea how complex what you're proposing is.

So complex that similar operations were performed by BR works on numerous occasions, sometimes for periods of only months in operation?
See fitting on TDM gear to Class 43s, fitting various locomotives with Mark 1 EMU control systems and so on and so on.

There's a serious issue building new diesel locos for the UK, as there's no current design that fits the UK loading gauge and complies with current emissions legislation. There was a limit on the number of Class 68s allowed to be built, and no more are permitted.

Well if we really cant build new locomotives then I think railfreight is even more stuffed than I thought it was.....

Locomotives are also incredibly expensive compared to the cost of multiple unit vehicles.

They are more expensive yes, but most information I see suggests two or three times the price, rather than eight times.......
So the capital cost is still much lower than procuring eight car multiple unit sets from scratch.

What you're proposing also involves having to mash up potentially massively incompatible control systems and possibly make extensive alterations to the MUs involved.

The MUs in question have no major TMS style electronic control systems, and as has been repeatedly demonstrated in the US (where essentially all locomotives, including those built by a large number of disparate manufacturers, can be operated in multiple, making systems work with non electronic control systems is relatively simple)

If locomotive builders can make their fancy control systems work with an ancient AAR control standard, they can make it work with a non-electronic electrical control system like that fitted to Mark 3 EMUs.
It wouldn't even be a small job as the RSSB gives essentially the same MU control gear for all the Mark 3 EMUs and the Networkers.
Which means potentially hundreds of eight-car sets.

The only reason locomotives and multiple units are built with proprietary TMS systems is to ensure manufacturer lock in.

 

[Peter Kelford]

One question though and this is a serious one, why?

People want railtours, don't they. Equally, I can forsee a time when Mk1s will be banned for some red tape. Why not the use the other iconic carriage then, the Mk 3

 

[Aictos]

People want railtours, don't they. Equally, I can forsee a time when Mk1s will be banned for some red tape. Why not the use the other iconic carriage then, the Mk 3

Well yes but by the time they be needed as you proposed, it would cost ££££ to get them in running order again!

 

[JonathanH]

People want railtours, don't they. Equally, I can forsee a time when Mk1s will be banned for some red tape. Why not the use the other iconic carriage then, the Mk 3

Both Locomotive Services and the A1 steam trust are likely to take a take of Mk3s for charter work. It is likely that their work in the Mk3s will set a standard for how other operators could use them in place of Mk1s.

Either way it is unlikely that Mk3 EMU coaches will be used. If there was any demand the 12 coaches scrapped in the 321 -> 320 conversions would still be around.

 

[AM9]

Someone seriously suggested converting 319s into something like that a while back.

I suppose the original BELs were notorious for their poor ride quality, so a 319 has that in common with them!

The 319s could be Wagon Lits stock. They have at least been demostrated through the Channel Tunnel.