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What were the Big four's longest direct services

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ac6000cw

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No detailed knowledge, but my thoughts would be:

For the Southern Railway, I'd guess London Waterloo - Padstow, about 260 miles (served by a portion of the Atlantic Coast Express).

GWR - maybe London - Penzance via Bristol?

LMS and LNER probably London - Inverness or Fort William?

Note that there may well have been longer journeys possible using 'through carriages' that were swapped from train to train and between companies, but these might not count - it depends on your definition of 'services'. Also there were some services which were the equivalent of today's 'cross-country' services, particularly in the summer, which involved more than one company e.g. LMS + GWR or LNER + GWR + SR.
 

TheEdge

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Southern and GWR are definitely London to Padstow and Penzance respectively.

LNER timetables seem to have London Kings Cross - Aberdeen or Fort William as the longest direct services (both sleepers). Modern routes its 520 miles to Fort William or 522 to Aberdeen, not sure what it would have been in LNER days.

LMS looks like its London - Inverness (567 miles)

Although I find old timetables very hard to read so I may be misreading slip and through coaches as direct services.
 

ac6000cw

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LNER timetables seem to have London Kings Cross - Aberdeen or Fort William as the longest direct services (both sleepers). Modern routes its 520 miles to Fort William or 522 to Aberdeen, not sure what it would have been in LNER days.

As the LNER included the old North British routes (LMS got the Caley and Highland routes), I assume it was ECML to Edinburgh, then via Falkirk to the Cowlairs area, then via Yoker or Westerton to reach the Fort William route. So around 557 miles.
 
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IanXC

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The GWR had running rights to Manchester London Road, and I seem to recall these operated as GWR services throughout. In a way the current Cross Country Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth are the descendants of these services (diverted away from GWR metals in the West Midlands these days). Whether there were Manchester to Penzance services I don't know but it would be odd if there were not - Manchester to Penzance being some 378 miles vs 305 miles for London to Penzance.
 

Tim R-T-C

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I would love to know how the passenger makeup of the long distance trains in this era was different. Their reasons for travelling for example and if people generally travelled further, or for shorter, intermediate legs. I can't imagine such information is readily available though.
 

TheEdge

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I would love to know how the passenger makeup of the long distance trains in this era was different. Their reasons for travelling for example and if people generally travelled further, or for shorter, intermediate legs. I can't imagine such information is readily available though.

There are websites that contain Big 4 and BR carriage working notices, I used to use one fairly often for Train Sim purposes but can't find it at the moment.

Infact scratch that, I've found the index PDF on my PC so lets pick some named trains...

The Flying Scotsman, 10am Kings Cross - Edinburgh/Aberdeen, Summer 1935

Locomotive
Aberdeen Portion
Brake Third
Third
Composite
Edinburgh Portion
Third
Third Toilet
Restaurant Third
Kitchen
Restaurant First
First
Third
Brake Van

It also gives the return working for those coaches (6.10am ex Aberdeen, 10am ex Edinburgh next day)

Cornish Riviera Express, London Paddington - Plymouth/Penzance, Winter 1943

Locomotive
Penzance Portion
Van 3rd
3rd
3rd
Compo
Compo
Diner
1st (7) - not sure what 7 means?
3rd
3rd
Van 3rd
Plymouth North Road
Compo
3rd
Van 3rd

The GWR one also decrees the CRE is to leave Paddington via No 2 Main Line and the ECS is to depart Old Oak Common at 0930. Some GWR CWNs also give detailed local formations. The first few pages will be tables defining Set 1 as a B set + Siphon, Set 2 and a B set and so on before then just having each train as "9.0am Minehead - Taunton: Set 8" and so on.
 

ac6000cw

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30907

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@TheEdge (7) would most likely mean seven compartments

@ac6000cw Lossiemouth only qualifies if you allow through carriages - a single sleeper in this case.
Another long distance through carriage (actually 2) was Glasgow to Plymouth or Penzance - I cannot check which at the moment - but that was definitely operated by two companies.
This link refers to 1956 but I am fairly certain it ran pre war.
Carriage Formations - Farnham & District Model Railway Club.

Sleepers didnt run north of Inverness normally - but ISTR something about naval leave trains running right through to Thurso in WW1 (pre grouping of course)
 

ac6000cw

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The GWR had running rights to Manchester London Road, and I seem to recall these operated as GWR services throughout. In a way the current Cross Country Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth are the descendants of these services (diverted away from GWR metals in the West Midlands these days). Whether there were Manchester to Penzance services I don't know but it would be odd if there were not - Manchester to Penzance being some 378 miles vs 305 miles for London to Penzance.

Also Birkenhead (the northern outpost of GWR metals) to Penzance is a possibility. From a distance point-of-view, in those days any services like that would almost certainly have run via Shrewsbury, Hereford and the Severn Tunnel.
 

Taunton

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The GWR had running rights to Manchester London Road, and I seem to recall these operated as GWR services throughout
.

Also Birkenhead (the northern outpost of GWR metals) to Penzance is a possibility. From a distance point-of-view, in those days any services like that would almost certainly have run via Shrewsbury, Hereford and the Severn Tunnel.
The GWR rights were to Manchester Exchange, not London Road, from the joint LMS/GW line from Chester to Warrington, which had running powers over the LMS via Earlestown on to Manchester. In practice I believe the GWR did not provide any locomotives for passenger services through to Manchester, which were wholly LMS, but did operate freight services, it being an advantage to have their own freight terminal in the city.

I believe there were Birkenhead-Penzance through carriages at times, although these were well trumped by the Glasgow-Penzance through coaches which shared the same route (and possibly the same trains) south of Shrewsbury. There was passenger accommodation, but also extensive van provision, as the principal user of the through operation was mails. The GWR outpost at Birkenhead Woodside of course looked across by ferry to Liverpool for much of its business.

The through Glasgow coaches were still running in the 1960s as I recall the morning 1000 from Taunton to Liverpool, via Hereford, which had come through from Plymouth, had the two coaches at the front through to Glasgow, which were detached by the diesel at Crewe when the main Liverpool train changed to an electric loco, and then added to the afternoon Euston to Glasgow service which came through Crewe at that time. They were popular with sailors travelling between Devonport and Rosyth.
 
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30907

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Penzance to Glasgow is about 605 miles via Hereford, so slightly shorter than London to Lossiemouth anyway.
 
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Probably the most famous through-coach working (as opposed to complete train) was the summer Aberdeen to Penzance - 794 miles. This LNER/GWR joint working ran via the East Coast to York, then GC via Sheffield, Woodford Halse and Banbury and then GW via Oxford, Swindon, Bath and Bristol. In winter it operated from Edinburgh instead.
 

SouthDevonian

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Operation Cornwall (published by Xpress Publications) shows that in 1957 the Glasgow portion of the 00.25 Manchester London Rd to Penzance carried 2 coaches (second corridor & brake composite corridor) from Glasgow St Enoch to Penzance. The latter would have travelled via Kilmarnock & Dumfries incurring more mileage than via Beattock. Oddly the northbound equivalent went via Beattock. 1957 was not a one-off year as I remember using this train from Plymouth numerous times when I was young as it was the first train into Cornwall on which cheap day returns were available.

By 1960, the public timetable shows both trains running from/to Glasgow Central via Beattock.
 

Iskra

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Although not a normal service no-one has mentioned London Euston-Thurso Jellicoe Express' in both wars- Britains longest ever train journey. LMS & then BR.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Paddington to Fishguard Harbour anyone - routed via the Swansea District line .....? (though some services went via Swansea High St - reverse - and detach some vehicles including the diner set)
 

Taunton

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Although not a normal service no-one has mentioned London Euston-Thurso Jellicoe Express' in both wars- Britains longest ever train journey. LMS & then BR.
Going back to the original question about the longest journey on the Southern, similar military specials were provided for naval traffic between Devonport and Chatham. There was a specific SR headcode assigned to this.
 

Dr Hoo

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Strictly in terms of the original question, I suppose that it depends what one means by "operated by". A through carriage hauled by another company's locomotive on another company's line might not qualify.

Nobody specified 'passenger' services. Goods could be sent anywhere in GB without being transhipped between wagons.

The Big Four operated a variety of dock and shipping services. The LMS had extensive interests in Ireland. There were some joint lines.

Parcel from Lowestoft to Burtonport, via the M&GN, across to Heysham, ferry to Belfast, Londonderry and the 'Swilly', all 'controlled' from Euston, anybody?
 

30907

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Going back to the original question about the longest journey on the Southern, similar military specials were provided for naval traffic between Devonport and Chatham. There was a specific SR headcode assigned to this.

And it beats Waterloo to Padstow by about 5 miles.

@ChiefPlanner but Fishguard is well short of Penzance for the GW. Pwllheli similarly.
 

ChiefPlanner

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And it beats Waterloo to Padstow by about 5 miles.

@ChiefPlanner but Fishguard is well short of Penzance for the GW. Pwllheli similarly.

Fair enough ,and thank you - unable to access my book stash due to building works .....
 

Taunton

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Parcel from Lowestoft to Burtonport, via the M&GN, across to Heysham, ferry to Belfast, Londonderry and the 'Swilly', all 'controlled' from Euston, anybody?
The L&Y, and subsequently the LMS, operated shipping services from Goole (easternmost point of the L&Y) across the North Sea and into the Baltic. Helsinki in Finland was the furthermost point, and I think is the furthest any British railway service ever got to.
 

daodao

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Strictly in terms of the original question, I suppose that it depends what one means by "operated by". A through carriage hauled by another company's locomotive on another company's line might not qualify.

Nobody specified 'passenger' services. Goods could be sent anywhere in GB without being transhipped between wagons.

The Big Four operated a variety of dock and shipping services. The LMS had extensive interests in Ireland. There were some joint lines.

Parcel from Lowestoft to Burtonport, via the M&GN, across to Heysham, ferry to Belfast, Londonderry and the 'Swilly', all 'controlled' from Euston, anybody?

Lowestoft to Killybegs in Ulster, via the following route might qualify: Lowestoft-Melton Constable-Leicester-Carlisle-Dumfries-Stranraer-Larne-Ballymena-Derry-Strabane-Donegal-Killybegs. The Swilly was independent, and only recently ceased trading as a bus company, whereas the CDRJC was part owned by the Midland Rly. The Larne-Ballymena and Derry-Killybegs sections were narrow gauge.

These lines were all directly/indirectly controlled (at least in part) from Derby (apart from Carlisle-Dumfries) rather than Euston.
 

Dr Hoo

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Thanks for the correction about the Swilly. Serves me right for not checking.

Actually the Northern Counties Committee only owned the Londonderry to Strabane section of the County Donegal. This was *operated by* (in the context of the original question) by the County Donegal, not the NCC, so I suppose that that puts the limit for our hypothetical parcel from Lowestoft at Londonderry.

I think that Derby and Midland interests at least nominally came under the control of Euston House during the LMS era (although I appreciate that that wasn't universally accepted).
 

Taunton

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Actually the Northern Counties Committee only owned the Londonderry to Strabane section of the County Donegal. This was *operated by* (in the context of the original question) by the County Donegal, not the NCC, so I suppose that that puts the limit for our hypothetical parcel from Lowestoft at Londonderry.
You can go all the way to Killybegs. The County Donegal itself was owned equally by the GN of Ireland and the NCC itself, hence the Midland and later the LMS.

Actually the County Donegal was managed by one man, Henry Forbes, for most of its time, and almost all of the LMS era. I don't believe anyone from Belfast, Derby, Euston or anywhere else got much of a chance to tell him anything about what to do!!
 
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