What would be the most sensible way to run a direct Coventry to Leicester service?

[VItraveller]

could it work as a standalone or would it be better to integrate it into a longer route, for example Birmingham New Street to Leicester via Solihull, Leamington and Coventry.

 

[The Planner]

could it work as a standalone or would it be better to integrate it into a longer route, for example Birmingham New Street to Leicester via Solihull, Leamington and Coventry.

As it stands, it still needs the reverse at Nuneaton Abbey Jn. I can't see the dive under being built any time soon. New St via Solihull just adds significant complexity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't this previously exist but was removed when the track layout was changed and the extra Nuneaton platforms were built because it became much more operationally inconvenient? It's probably not that much needed because there is already a Birmingham to Leicester service via the new flyover.

 

[Magdalia]

Use buses on the M69!?

 

[Henffordd]

Didn't this previously exist but was removed when the track layout was changed and the extra Nuneaton platforms were built because it became much more operationally inconvenient? It's probably not that much needed because there is already a Birmingham to Leicester service via the new flyover.

I commuted for a number of years between Coventry and Leicester. I stopped when it ceased to be a through service in about 2004. My understanding is that Mr Branson didn't like trains crossing his paths, and that there wasn't the money to renovate the dive-under. Changing trains at Nuneaton on a wet November was not much fun.

The service seemed quite well-used at the time, although it had its quirks. Oddest was the 17:18 from Leicester back to Coventry. It came from Lincoln, and was almost invariably late, having to slot behind all sorts of other things. I say "almost". One regular relied so much on it being late that he complained on the rare occasion it was on time and he missed it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not what Mr Branson likes or doesn't. It's what is sensible and economic to provide given that the new flyover provided for a direct Birmingham to Leicester service that didn't get in the way of WCML pathing (with the increased service post 2002ish) thus meaning the only people who lost out were people going to/from Coventry itself (and later Bedworth), a relatively small market.

 

[InTheEastMids]

could it work as a standalone or would it be better to integrate it into a longer route,

First point I would make is that I would agree anyone that says the current train service between Leicester and Coventry is dreadful.
1h 8 mins from Leicester to Coventry (30 min change at Nuneaton) is a sub-30mph average speed.

Use buses on the M69!?

A quick scan suggests bus services are also poor, and certainly the road network (M1 J21 area in particular) is very bad at rush hours. I don't think an express coach service would consistently beat the current rail service by much in the rush hour as it's 50 minutes off-peak.

I think the main opportunity is reducing the change time at Nuneaton. I suspect this will need Midlands Rail Hub to provide extra Leicester-Nuneaton trains to reduce it. This is presumably still 5 years away.
If Midlands Connect are to be believed, it's more likely that any train will go further East/North to Nottingham than Solihull.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First point I would make is that I would agree anyone that says the current train service between Leicester and Coventry is dreadful.
1h 8 mins from Leicester to Coventry (30 min change at Nuneaton) is a sub-30mph average speed.

Any scope to change the Coventry to Nuneaton timings for a better connection? That's relatively self contained is it not?

I note along those lines that the Marston Vale turnarounds have been tweaked in this timetable change so they better connect with East West Rail.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Any scope to change the Coventry to Nuneaton timings for a better connection? That's relatively self contained is it not?

They are Nuneaton-Leamington services, so my guess is that crossing Coventry station and getting down the single line towards Leamington are a bit challenging.

 

[MarkyT]

It's not what Mr Branson likes or doesn't. It's what is sensible and economic to provide given that the new flyover provided for a direct Birmingham to Leicester service that didn't get in the way of WCML pathing (with the increased service post 2002ish) thus meaning the only people who lost out were people going to/from Coventry itself (and later Bedworth), a relatively small market.

Birmingham - Leicester trains previously had to cross the WCML on the flat if they called at Nuneaton, as the old Midland station closed in the 60s and the alignment passing over the main line to the north of the LNWR station avoided it entirely thereafter and had been lifted. An early stage of West Coast Route Modernisation saw the avoiding line partly reinstated with a diversion east of the mainline bridge via new platforms on the east side of the WCML station, allowing Leicester trains to call there without conflict. To avoid altering existing signalling through Nuneaton station, initially the new lines were completely isolated from the WCML, pending resignalling, which occurred sometime later and reinstated the connections. A side effect was that for a while, Coventry - Leicester trains couldn't reverse across the south end of the station even if that was desired.

 

[SynthD]

Birmingham New Street to Leicester via Solihull, Leamington and Coventry.

That route is a victim of geography. The individual parts are all possible, nearly all in frequent service, but is there the demand to put them together?

 

[The Planner]

Didn't this previously exist but was removed when the track layout was changed and the extra Nuneaton platforms were built because it became much more operationally inconvenient? It's probably not that much needed because there is already a Birmingham to Leicester service via the new flyover.

It went long before West Coast route mod.

 

[InTheEastMids]

A side effect was that for a while, Coventry - Leicester trains couldn't reverse across the south end of the station even if that was desired.

If the track plans are Open Train Times, it looks like you still can't. Hence the comment upthread about a reversal at Nuneaton Abbey (towards Birmingham) being required for a direct service, presumably calling at both P6 or 7 and P1.

 

[MarkyT]

If the track plans are Open Train Times, it looks like you still can't. Hence the comment upthread about a reversal at Nuneaton Abbey (towards Birmingham) being required for a direct service, presumably calling at both P6 or 7 and P1.

Looking at the layout you're correct. There isn't pointwork across the fasts to allow it.

Here's an idea for a new connecting line around the north of the town, ~7.75km in length, partly using former trackbed of the Ashby and Nuneaton, with a new bridge flying over the WCML:

 

[james60059]

Just my tuppence worth, and seeing this is speculative .

Reopen Nuneaton Abbey Street Station and use as a run round. Run a service thus:

COVENTRY - Coventry Arena - Bedworth - Bermuda Park - Nuneaton P1 (SD) - Nuneaton Abbey Street (RR + PU + SD) - Nuneaton P7 (PU) - Hinckley - Narborough - South Wigston - LEICESTER.

LEICESTER - South Wigston - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton P6 (SD) - Nuneaton Abbey Street (RR + PU + SD) - Nuneaton P2 (PU) - Bermuda Park - Bedworth - Coventry Arena - COVENTRY.

PU = Pick Up.
RR = Runround.
SD = Set Down.

Use buses on the M69!?

X6 every hour operated by Arriva, or if you want a more sedate route you have the 148 operated by Stagecoach every 30 minutes (takes circa 2 hours though )

 

[The Planner]

Just my tuppence worth, and seeing this is speculative .

Reopen Nuneaton Abbey Street Station and use as a run round. Run a service thus:

COVENTRY - Coventry Arena - Bedworth - Bermuda Park - Nuneaton P1 (SD) - Nuneaton Abbey Street (RR + PU + SD) - Nuneaton P7 (PU) - Hinckley - Narborough - South Wigston - LEICESTER.

LEICESTER - South Wigston - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton P6 (SD) - Nuneaton Abbey Street (RR + PU + SD) - Nuneaton P2 (PU) - Bermuda Park - Bedworth - Coventry Arena - COVENTRY.

PU = Pick Up.
RR = Runround.
SD = Set Down.


X6 every hour operated by Arriva, or if you want a more sedate route you have the 148 operated by Stagecoach every 30 minutes (takes circa 2 hours though )

Or just go up to Abbey Jn where there is a signalled move and swap ends, no new station required.

 

[Helvellyn]

Just my tuppence worth, and seeing this is speculative .

Reopen Nuneaton Abbey Street Station and use as a run round. Run a service thus:

COVENTRY - Coventry Arena - Bedworth - Bermuda Park - Nuneaton P1 (SD) - Nuneaton Abbey Street (RR + PU + SD) - Nuneaton P7 (PU) - Hinckley - Narborough - South Wigston - LEICESTER.

LEICESTER - South Wigston - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton P6 (SD) - Nuneaton Abbey Street (RR + PU + SD) - Nuneaton P2 (PU) - Bermuda Park - Bedworth - Coventry Arena - COVENTRY.

PU = Pick Up.
RR = Runround.
SD = Set Down.

How much time is taken to run Nuneaton - Nuneaton Abbey Street - Nuneaton versus just changing between the current West Midlands and CrossCountry services?

 

[fishwomp]

First point I would make is that I would agree anyone that says the current train service between Leicester and Coventry is dreadful.
1h 8 mins from Leicester to Coventry (30 min change at Nuneaton) is a sub-30mph average speed.

It's 56 mins currently in the other direction - with 5 or 6 min connection at Nuneaton, yet 1h8 with a 28 min connection from Leicester to Coventry¬ That is on account of the E-W service being a stopper and the W-E being express on the Leicester - Nuneaton sections.

So, pretty obviously were the connection to be improved (what it connects _to_ and how long the wait is), the timing would improve. No need for a through train.

One reason for unfortunate timing of the Cov-Nuneaton would be that the single track to Leamington dictates timing of the Leam-Cov-Nuneaton. Could it be that Leamington's gain was Leicester's loss? I don't have the timings of the service before it was extended to Leamington.

 

[ChrisC]

The service seemed quite well-used at the time, although it had its quirks. Oddest was the 17:18 from Leicester back to Coventry. It came from Lincoln, and was almost invariably late, having to slot behind all sorts of other things. I say "almost". One regular relied so much on it being late that he complained on the rare occasion it was on time and he missed it.

Was the route ever just Leicester to Coventry? I thought it was begun as a roughly hourly Nottingham-Leicester-Coventry route when the first Class 150 sprinters were introduced. I think in the final years before it was withdrawn, almost all trains ran through to/from Lincoln. Previous to this Lincoln had a Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Birmingham service but this was cut back to Nottingham-Birmingham and the Coventry service was extended to Lincoln instead. When Central Trains was split up, Lincoln to Leicester remained but Nottingham to Birmingham and Leicester to Birmingham went to XC. That‘s what I seem to remember but I may not be completely correct.

 

[Zomboid]

It's 56 mins currently in the other direction - with 5 or 6 min connection at Nuneaton, yet 1h8 with a 28 min connection from Leicester to Coventry¬ That is on account of the E-W service being a stopper and the W-E being express on the Leicester - Nuneaton sections.

So, pretty obviously were the connection to be improved (what it connects _to_ and how long the wait is), the timing would improve. No need for a through train.

One reason for unfortunate timing of the Cov-Nuneaton would be that the single track to Leamington dictates timing of the Leam-Cov-Nuneaton. Could it be that Leamington's gain was Leicester's loss? I don't have the timings of the service before it was extended to Leamington.

Since we're in crayon land we can add a second train running between Coventry and Nuneaton to give 2tph and time it to give a better connection to Leicester at Nuneaton. Might want an additional bay platform at Coventry on the Nuneaton side of the bridge so it doesn't get in the way of the main line.

 

[The Planner]

How much time is taken to run Nuneaton - Nuneaton Abbey Street - Nuneaton versus just changing between the current West Midlands and CrossCountry services?

It would be about 10 minutes. Current connection is 6 minutes northbound 29 southbound

Since we're in crayon land we can add a second train running between Coventry and Nuneaton to give 2tph and time it to give a better connection to Leicester at Nuneaton. Might want an additional bay platform at Coventry on the Nuneaton side of the bridge so it doesn't get in the way of the main line.

That was the plan for NUCKLE. Its never happened.

 

[NIT100]

It would be about 10 minutes. Current connection is 6 minutes northbound 29 southbound


That was the plan for NUCKLE. Its never happened.

But it is the plan in the Midland Connect Strategic Outline Business Case just submitted to DfT (supposedly in Spring 2025), for the bay platform at Coventry, dive under at Nuneaton and increase of Birmingham to Leicester to 4 tph. The dive under is also about improving freight paths from both Southampton and Felixstowe. Probably looking at a decade until completion if it is funded.

 

[NCT]

Does the sensible way have to involve a direction service?

Getting across Nuneaton either requires bypassing this important market, or is capacitive destructive, or is prohibitively expensive/disruptive.

Once HS2 is up and running, the first Trent Valley opportunity is to increase the service level from 1tph to 2tph. The beauty of Trent Valley timings is that Nuneaton - Rugeley are almost exactly 30 minutes apart and Tamworth is 15 minutes in the middle. This presents a perfect opportunity to create taktfahnplan nodes at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Rugeley.

Euston - Trent Valleys stop at Nuneaton and Rugeley xx00 and xx30, and Tamworth xx15. This provides a structure for planning all other services around.

Midland Rail Hub's proposal of upping Birmingham - Leicester to 4tph (2 fast 2 slow) looks eminently sensible. This means there should be enough trains between Nuneaton and Leicester and any 5th and 6th trains would be carrying fresh air (and there certainly wouldn't be capacity between Wigston and Leicester). This also means Nuneaton - Leicester would be frequent - Nuneaton being in the middle of the route should be services are roughly 15 minutes apart so providing good interchanges to/from the Coventry direction should be easy.

I'd time the Birmingham to Leicester fast to depart Nuneaton towards Leicester at say xx08 (from Birmingham it can be the stopping service that connects into the Nuneaton node arriving at around xx52). Trains from Coventry can arrive at Nuneaton at probably around xx54 (aiming for a 12-minute turnaround). Yes this fixes the timing of this service at Coventry but this can all be part of the WCML post-HS2 recast.

And the structure of the rest of the Trent Valley principal stations are:

Tamworth - Euston TV services call at xx15 and xx45 in both directions. Cross Country Derby - Birmingham is 4tph so providing interchanges should be easy.

Lichfield TV - Euston TV up and down services are 15 minutes apart. Cross City can run 4tph to Litchfield TV to provide connections into and out of all calls

Rugeley TV - Euston TV services call at xx00 and xx30. Chase Line services can remain 2tph north of Walsall.

 

[Energy]

That was the plan for NUCKLE. Its never happened.

IIRC the bay platform would require some expensive signal rejigging, which has held the project up.

Now that Coventry East / Binley station is being investigated, if the services fit between Coventry and Coventry East, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up building the bays there and the service is Coventry East - Leicester.

 

[The Planner]

But it is the plan in the Midland Connect Strategic Outline Business Case just submitted to DfT (supposedly in Spring 2025), for the bay platform at Coventry, dive under at Nuneaton and increase of Birmingham to Leicester to 4 tph. The dive under is also about improving freight paths from both Southampton and Felixstowe. Probably looking at a decade until completion if it is funded.

A SOBC is right at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to funding. I don't see what the dive under does for freight either. Trains from Southampton are either heading north or to Lawley St/Hams Hall/Birch Coppice. Felixstowe the same. The Cov bay was meant to be put in at the same time as Coventry Arena etc.

Does the sensible way have to involve a direction service?

Getting across Nuneaton either requires bypassing this important market, or is capacitive destructive, or is prohibitively expensive/disruptive.

Once HS2 is up and running, the first Trent Valley opportunity is to increase the service level from 1tph to 2tph. The beauty of Trent Valley timings is that Nuneaton - Rugeley are almost exactly 30 minutes apart and Tamworth is 15 minutes in the middle. This presents a perfect opportunity to create taktfahnplan nodes at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Rugeley.

Euston - Trent Valleys stop at Nuneaton and Rugeley xx00 and xx30, and Tamworth xx15. This provides a structure for planning all other services around.

Midland Rail Hub's proposal of upping Birmingham - Leicester to 4tph (2 fast 2 slow) looks eminently sensible. This means there should be enough trains between Nuneaton and Leicester and any 5th and 6th trains would be carrying fresh air (and there certainly wouldn't be capacity between Wigston and Leicester). This also means Nuneaton - Leicester would be frequent - Nuneaton being in the middle of the route should be services are roughly 15 minutes apart so providing good interchanges to/from the Coventry direction should be easy.

I'd time the Birmingham to Leicester fast to depart Nuneaton towards Leicester at say xx08 (from Birmingham it can be the stopping service that connects into the Nuneaton node arriving at around xx52). Trains from Coventry can arrive at Nuneaton at probably around xx54 (aiming for a 12-minute turnaround). Yes this fixes the timing of this service at Coventry but this can all be part of the WCML post-HS2 recast.

And the structure of the rest of the Trent Valley principal stations are:

Tamworth - Euston TV services call at xx15 and xx45 in both directions. Cross Country Derby - Birmingham is 4tph so providing interchanges should be easy.

Lichfield TV - Euston TV up and down services are 15 minutes apart. Cross City can run 4tph to Litchfield TV to provide connections into and out of all calls

Rugeley TV - Euston TV services call at xx00 and xx30. Chase Line services can remain 2tph north of Walsall.

HS2 phase 1 allows nothing of the sort as it dumps out at Handsacre.

IIRC the bay platform would require some expensive signal rejigging, which has held the project up.

Now that Coventry East / Binley station is being investigated, if the services fit between Coventry and Coventry East, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up building the bays there and the service is Coventry East - Leicester.

Held up is sugar coating it, the cross over at Cov Arena hasn't gone in either. I'd doubt that Binley would be any cheaper as its three sets of S&C and signalling.The issue with the bay was with Coventry North Yard.

 

[Zomboid]

HS2 phase 1 allows nothing of the sort as it dumps out at Handsacre

It probably does require a recast of the WCML, but not as unconstrained as doing HS2 properly would be.

 

[The Planner]

It probably does require a recast of the WCML, but not as unconstrained as doing HS2 properly would be.

That goes without saying, but its now so constrained as to what can be done.

 

[NCT]

That goes without saying, but its now so constrained as to what can be done.

It still allows for a full recast of the entire WCML south of Handsacre at least ...

Even if the Euston - TV has to remain at hourly, there's nothing stopping you from sorting out the WCML symmetry and timing them to be at xx00/30 at Nuneaton and Rugeley.

 

[The Planner]

It still allows for a full recast of the entire WCML south of Handsacre at least ...

Even if the Euston - TV has to remain at hourly, there's nothing stopping you from sorting out the WCML symmetry and timing them to be at xx00/30 at Nuneaton and Rugeley.

It does, but it massively constrains what you can do north of Rugby. Wny would you extend the Nuneaton Rugeley journey time? They do that journey in 26 minutes. Symmetry is a red herring, people just need to know what minute of the hour they depart, it doesn't matter if its xx.02 and xx.28

 

[NCT]

It does, but it massively constrains what you can do north of Rugby. Wny would you extend the Nuneaton Rugeley journey time? They do that journey in 26 minutes. Symmetry is a red herring, people just need to know what minute of the hour they depart, it doesn't matter if its xx.02 and xx.28

With the fastest services hived off to HS2 the classic network needs to work to attract more than just point-to-point passengers. Having a pattern of services designed for interchanges, and symmetrical interchange (i.e. outward and return have similar timetable patterns and interchange times) would facilitate that market growth.

You could probably have a Nuneaton arr xx32 and Rugeley TV dep xx58 service, provided that the xx32 arrival isn't too late for connections to Water orton, and that the xx58 depart isn't too early for the Chase Line arrival.