What's In a Name? - British Bus Companies

[John Luxton]

Something which has puzzled me in the transport world during the past 30 years.

Since the disappearance of British Railways we have seen some TOCs adopt the identities of the old railway companies - GWR, Southern, LNER.

However, in the bus world so many of the old operator names have disappeared at least from the fleetnames, (I know some linger as legal entities which are part of the big groups - but they remain invisible).

I wonder why the big bus groups found the need to just kill off so many old names which had a good degree of regional recognition and local loyalty?

For a while it looked as though Badgerline would contine the old names - though that ended when they formed First Group with Grampian Transport.

The original company names seemed to survive grouping under Tilling / BET, Transport Holding Company and National Bus Company but died out late 1990s.

Anyone have an explanation for this?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, I wish we could bring back "East Kent", "Maidstone & District", "London Country", "Southdown", "Eastern National", "Grey-Green" and others....

 

[johnnychips]

Well ‘Crosville’ was certainly reincarnated a long way from its original area, with the same colour buses. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, I don’t know if it was any good), it failed.

 

[John Luxton]

Well ‘Crosville’ was certainly reincarnated a long way from its original area, with the same colour buses. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, I don’t know if it was any good), it failed.

Oh yes - seemed a bit odd using it for services around Weston Super Mare. Bristol Omibus would have been a better choice!

 

[co-tr-paul]

Oh yes - seemed a bit odd using it for services around Weston Super Mare. Bristol Omibus would have been a better choice!

Badgerline had its head office in WSM before First days.

 

[Roger1973]

Oh yes - seemed a bit odd using it for services around Weston Super Mare. Bristol Omibus would have been a better choice!

Without having any connection with the (WSM) operator, I can only speculate, but I believe that he had one or two preserved (original) Crosville buses before he started the WMS based operation, so that may have been one factor in it. I can't remember if was trading as a licensed heritage vehicle operator before starting the full scale operation, or if some of the preserved buses became PSV after.

The other may be what historic names were still under trade mark protection - I believe some of the historic / dormant names still are, but I assume Crosville wasn't by then.

In terms of why the big groups have done this - my understanding is that partly it's so that buses could be moved around without needing full repainting, and also they wanted to be seen as national brands, in the same way that major retailers are - a Tesco (for example) in Yorkshire looks pretty much the same as a Tesco in Kent.

 

[Titfield]

Being very cynical they dropped regional names and brands because:
1) when looking for funds from banks to expand or to float the business on the stock market they thought they needed a single big brand name to "sell" the business to investors.
2) they listened to marketing professionals on big salaries who didnt understand the local nature of the business.

 

[Statto]

North Western Road Car Company, the original company operated in East Cheshire & the Peak District, however that was split up in the early 70s, but a new North Western Road Car Company was formed September 86, this was from the old Ribble Southern depots, & now is Arriva Merseyside

Just to add, Stagecoach Merseyside Cheshire & South Lancashire, (a bit of a mouthful that) have rebranded their trading name from Glenvale Transport Limited, to Ribble Motor Services Limited, however Ribble Motor Services has no relation to company services in Wirral & Chester, as they were provided by Crosville, back in the day the companies that formed National Bus Company were often nicknamed "company" buses.

 

[Mollman]

Old names tend to be revived as route brands for example Go North East's OK Way, Transdev's Ribble Country and First using Badgerline around North Somerset.

TrentBarton is of course two long standing names combined.

 

[mangad]

In 2006 Stagecoach sold its London operations to Macquarie Bank for £263.6m, who presumably thought they could make a bomb out of it. Needing to rebrand, two names (and logos!) from the past returned: East London and Selkent - the names of the companies before they used the Stagecoach London brand. They remained for four years until Stagecoach bought the companies (and a new operation called Thameside) back for a mere £59.5m!

Quite why those two brands returned, albeit only for a short while, but presumably there was some fondness for the old names within the management, and/or that it was just easier than coming up with something new, and that their new corporate masters didn't care that much. Did the public care? Unlikely.

Presumably similar reasons are why North Western returned, and other similar examples. Someone had a fondness for the old name, and it was easier than coming up with something new.

Of course sometimes people do bring back names locally that the public may have some fondness for. Little Gem returned under the ownership of Go Goodwins for some years. Although whether anyone has any fondness for GM Buses after UK North brought back the brand name for their debacle of a service, well that's a whole other question.

 

[Simon75]

Chaserider, was a sub brand used by Midland Red North for there Cannock depot. It has be resurrected by D&G as a sub brand , for the former Midland Red/ Arriva Cannock depot

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think there's a slight over-romanticism about old company names. Yes, a number did survive a long time but a lot disappeared as time went on. Under NBC auspices, we saw the demise of many coaching operations (though a few reappeared in later years) with Bristol Greyhound, Black and White, Hebble, SUT, etc. Also, we saw Venture, Tynemouth, Tyneside, Sunderland and District, Gateshead, Aldershot and District, Thames Valley, Southern National, Wilts & Dorset, Western Welsh, Red and White, Rhondda all disappear. Then you have the raft of municipalities that went in the creation of PTEs or other regional groups e.g. Rhymney Valley.

Whilst today we do have an increased need to be visible to investors (and Stagecoach said that it was one reason for adopting the stripes back in the day), there are other practical reasons such as a standard livery to enable vehicles to be transferred more easily, standard templates for timetables and publicity. That was one reason for the creation of National white coaches, and the adoption of standardised poppy red/leaf green liveries.

Whilst I do understand what @Titfield is getting at with local fleetnames, many of them were hardly that local. Western National was simply the western part of the National Omnibus and Transport Co and it was simultaneously operating in Penzance and Stroud! Stroud then lost its WN buses (as did Trowbridge) in favour of Bristol fleetnames... United or Crosville are as generic as Arriva arguably, and I doubt anyone knew what SELNEC actually stood for (South East Lancs and North East Cheshire) in the general populace.

It was ever thus...

 

[Russel]

Personally, I don't see why bus operators would bother resurrecting old names as most of them mean nothing to the traveling public, do many people outside of a niche bunch of enthusiasts know the history behind names such as Badgerline, Midland Bluebird, Crosville etc? No...

At least with historic rail company names they are generally linked to the areas they serve, geographically, GWR, SWR etc.

Regarding Badgerline, has this branding been dropped by First in WSM?

 

[Trainman40083]

Personally, I don't see why bus operators would bother resurrecting old names as most of them mean nothing to the traveling public, do many people outside of a niche bunch of enthusiasts know the history behind names such as Badgerline, Midland Bluebird, Crosville etc? No...

At least with historic rail company names they are generally linked to the areas they serve, geographically, GWR, SWR etc.

Regarding Badgerline, has this branding been dropped by First in WSM?

I thought Badgerline in WSM was still going.

 

[Titfield]

I think there's a slight over-romanticism about old company names. Yes, a number did survive a long time but a lot disappeared as time went on. Under NBC auspices, we saw the demise of many coaching operations (though a few reappeared in later years) with Bristol Greyhound, Black and White, Hebble, SUT, etc. Also, we saw Venture, Tynemouth, Tyneside, Sunderland and District, Gateshead, Aldershot and District, Thames Valley, Southern National, Wilts & Dorset, Western Welsh, Red and White, Rhondda all disappear. Then you have the raft of municipalities that went in the creation of PTEs or other regional groups e.g. Rhymney Valley.

Whilst today we do have an increased need to be visible to investors (and Stagecoach said that it was one reason for adopting the stripes back in the day), there are other practical reasons such as a standard livery to enable vehicles to be transferred more easily, standard templates for timetables and publicity. That was one reason for the creation of National white coaches, and the adoption of standardised poppy red/leaf green liveries.

Whilst I do understand what @Titfield is getting at with local fleetnames, many of them were hardly that local. Western National was simply the western part of the National Omnibus and Transport Co and it was simultaneously operating in Penzance and Stroud! Stroud then lost its WN buses (as did Trowbridge) in favour of Bristol fleetnames... United or Crosville are as generic as Arriva arguably, and I doubt anyone knew what SELNEC actually stood for (South East Lancs and North East Cheshire) in the general populace.

It was ever thus...

Yes I cant disagree with this. The value of local brand names I suspect is relatively low and only really of any value if you are competing with someone else.

Having said that for the NBC subsidiary I worked for (Shamrock and Rambler) we were competing with Excelsior in the day tour, extended tour and private hire markets. Back in the early 80s after coach deregulation we reintroduced a version of the old orange livery (with added royal blue) to try and regain some local market awareness.

 

[mangad]

Interesting that whilst Arriva, first and Stagecoach all went down the generic brand route, Go-Ahead stuck with local brands and liveries - to such an extent that in London they have multiple sub brands under the Go-ahead London banner. They must see some value in them (although what value they see in keeping London General and London Central, is beyond me.)

 

[northwichcat]

Lancashire United and North Western Road Car are both names that have been resurrected.

Just to add, Stagecoach Merseyside Cheshire & South Lancashire, (a bit of a mouthful that) have rebranded their trading name from Glenvale Transport Limited, to Ribble Motor Services Limited, however Ribble Motor Services has no relation to company services in Wirral & Chester, as they were provided by Crosville, back in the day the companies that formed National Bus Company were often nicknamed "company" buses.

I think that's more down to Stagecoach creating a single limited company for operations, instead of having two. Had they not been forced to sell Preston Bus maybe it would have been different.

Also worth remembering Stagecoach Merseyside and Cheshire was Stagecoach Merseyside before First Bus sold them the former Chester City Transport routes. Incidentally, First merged those operations into First Greater Manchester business, rather than keeping it as a separate company.

I'm sure South Lancs Travel and D&G Bus were also under the same limited company for a while.

but a new North Western Road Car Company was formed September 86, this was from the old Ribble Southern depots, & now is Arriva Merseyside

Arriva Merseyside is a fraction of what the new North Western was. North Western also had a south Manchester and Cheshire presence, and were buying up competitors. Knutsford/Wythenshawe based Starline were acquired by them, as well as Winsford based Nova Scotia - it may have meant for a brief period North Western had two depots in Winsford.

 

[GCH100]

Local brand names have always been killed off when larger companies get their hands on them, not just in the bus industry but in other industries as well. The large company naturally wants a central recognised brand. Can you imagine if the likes of Tesco decided to show the brand names of companies it purchased over the years, eg Presto and Hillards. In the same way bus companies naturally want there name to be displayed on buses, not the name of a company bought out 10 years ago.

Its not just Private operators that extingished names, look at the number of operators whose name was extingished, by Selnec/GMPTE in the 1960's and 1970's, not all those were Municipal Operators either, Lancashire United and North Western Road Car also went.

The only thing though, that the large groups have done is to keep legal entity names, although not always the name/identity that was taken over as it allows for flexibility with pay structures, and also with profit and loss accounts.

First have reissued the Badgerline name in Weston-Super-Mare as a Trading name, as the subsquent company to it, FirstGroup mucked things up, and by re-introducing the Badgerline name it rebuilt or was a try to rebuild passenger loyalty. Some times old names are bought off shelf by other operators, and sometimes the Big Groups use them as legal entities for trading purposes.

If I could bring back any it would be the Lancashire United Brand and all buses on the 582 Bolton - Leigh service would be painted Red and Grey and carry the Lancashire United fleetname (lol).

 

[SCH117X]

Local brand names have always been killed off when larger companies get their hands on them, not just in the bus industry but in other industries as well. The large company naturally wants a central recognised brand. Can you imagine if the likes of Tesco decided to show the brand names of companies it purchased over the years, eg Presto and Hillards. In the same way bus companies naturally want there name to be displayed on buses, not the name of a company bought out 10 years ago.

Its not just Private operators that extingished names, look at the number of operators whose name was extingished, by Selnec/GMPTE in the 1960's and 1970's, not all those were Municipal Operators either, Lancashire United and North Western Road Car also went.

The only thing though, that the large groups have done is to keep legal entity names, although not always the name/identity that was taken over as it allows for flexibility with pay structures, and also with profit and loss accounts.

First have reissued the Badgerline name in Weston-Super-Mare as a Trading name, as the subsquent company to it, FirstGroup mucked things up, and by re-introducing the Badgerline name it rebuilt or was a try to rebuild passenger loyalty. Some times old names are bought off shelf by other operators, and sometimes the Big Groups use them as legal entities for trading purposes.

If I could bring back any it would be the Lancashire United Brand and all buses on the 582 Bolton - Leigh service would be painted Red and Grey and carry the Lancashire United fleetname (lol).

Snag with that is Lancahire United Ltd is a Transdev Blazefield company that is active on Companies House

LANCASHIRE UNITED LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

LANCASHIRE UNITED LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[fgwrich]

I thought Badgerline in WSM was still going.

It still is, along with First's almost similarly regional First Kernow / Cornwall by Kernow - Who also revived Truronian for their coaching business.

 

[Mugby]

Being very cynical they dropped regional names and brands because:
1) when looking for funds from banks to expand or to float the business on the stock market they thought they needed a single big brand name to "sell" the business to investors.
2) they listened to marketing professionals on big salaries who didnt understand the local nature of the business.

They were exactly the reasons.

Thankfully one or two of them have seen sense latterly although where image consultants are used, they seem to think they're selling soap powder or breakfast cereal rather than bus travel!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes I cant disagree with this. The value of local brand names I suspect is relatively low and only really of any value if you are competing with someone else.

Having said that for the NBC subsidiary I worked for (Shamrock and Rambler) we were competing with Excelsior in the day tour, extended tour and private hire markets. Back in the early 80s after coach deregulation we reintroduced a version of the old orange livery (with added royal blue) to try and regain some local market awareness.

I was thinking about Black and White as one that returned, but S&D was indeed one.

There have been many other ones resurrected at various times, and from all types of eras. Southern National and Wilts & Dorset weren't gone for long (12-15 years?) whilst South Midland regained its full identity. White Rose (?) reappeared on a few Crosville coaches in the Rhyl area in the mid 1980s; I think that was the firm that originally ran in the Rhyl and Prestatyn area that Crosville bought and consumed.

It still is, along with First's almost similarly regional First Kernow / Cornwall by Kernow - Who also revived Truronian for their coaching business.

I don’t think Truronian actually disappeared but it gained greater prominence as that operation was developed

 

[Simon75]

Arriva used Stevensons of Uttoxeter as a legal name for their Burton depot, Spath outstation and Wardles (Stoke-on-Trent).

 

[Russel]

I thought Badgerline in WSM was still going.

Yes you're right, I've re-read the first few posts and it's the original Badgerline pre-first that is being discussed in the past tense!

 

[Dai Corner]

Arriva used Stevensons of Uttoxeter as a legal name for their Burton depot, Path outstation and Wardles (Stoke-on-Trent).

The legal name for Stagecoach's south Wales operation is 'Red and White Services Ltd', though I don't think that is the same legal entity as the original Red & White. They have a bus in the heritage livery.

 

[RT4038]

In 2006 Stagecoach sold its London operations to Macquarie Bank for £263.6m, who presumably thought they could make a bomb out of it. Needing to rebrand, two names (and logos!) from the past returned: East London and Selkent - the names of the companies before they used the Stagecoach London brand. They remained for four years until Stagecoach bought the companies (and a new operation called Thameside) back for a mere £59.5m!

However, when Stagecoach sold, most of the buses were owned. When they bought it back, most were leased. So the (asset) value of the company was much lower, and the repurchase price reflected that.

 

[Goldfish62]

Interesting that whilst Arriva, first and Stagecoach all went down the generic brand route, Go-Ahead stuck with local brands and liveries - to such an extent that in London they have multiple sub brands under the Go-ahead London banner. They must see some value in them (although what value they see in keeping London General and London Central, is beyond me.)

Although GoAhead retained local brands they are generally not the same brands as the historic local companies, eg GoNorthEast, Swindon's Bus Company, More Bus.

GoAhead London dropped its sub brands a while back. Its now just plain London General Transport Services Ltd trading as GoAhead London, and the O licence is held by London General. For some reason route contracts are still in the name of the individual now-dormant companies, eg London Central Bus Company, Docklands Buses.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

First's "Corporatisation" (to coin a term) was a weird one. When they (as Badgerline) bought Yorkshire Rider the only change initially was the application of badger decals to rear windows. Then the company became FirstGroup, and each sub-division of Yorkshire Rider was given its own identity and livery. Leeds, Bradford and Halifax were given locally inspired names and very fetching colour schemes, especially Halifax which became Calderline with a lovely (though difficult to keep clean) white and blue livery.
Huddersfield, ever the "ginger stepchild", was given the anonymous name of "Kingfisher" and the livery adopted was an even uglier variation of the "new" Yorkshire Rider livery that had been adopted (but not widely applied) prior to the takeover.

 

[northwichcat]

Snag with that is Lancahire United Ltd is a Transdev Blazefield company that is active on Companies House

LANCASHIRE UNITED LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

LANCASHIRE UNITED LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

A registered company name is not the same as a trademark though. Centrebus haven't opted to change High Peak Buses' legal details from what they were under Bowers Coaches. If your surname was Bowers and you set up a coach hire company in Liverpool using the name Bowers I doubt Centrebus would bat an eyelid. You might have to register your business using something like Bowers Coaches Liverpool Limited but you could drop the Liverpool part from your operating name.

If you set up the business in Macclesfield and registered a 58 route under the Bowers Coaches brand (competiting with their existing route) they may ask their solicitors to look into whether there are any options to explore.

 

[John Luxton]

That was one reason for the creation of National white coaches, and the adoption of standardised poppy red/leaf green liveries.

Yes but the individual company / fleet names were maintained even on the white coaches. The standardised poppy red / leaf green usually went to bus companies in Tilling and BET groups which had used either red or green as their primary colours. The real casualty of the change was dropping shades of cream for white as I recall.

Whilst I do understand what @Titfield is getting at with local fleetnames, many of them were hardly that local. Western National was simply the western part of the National Omnibus and Transport Co and it was simultaneously operating in Penzance and Stroud!

Depends what one considers local. Western National used to have a slogan I have seen on old timetables of "Through the West of England" thus that set their geographical boundary quite well with Stroud being on the northern tip of the West Country and Penzance the southern one.