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What's In a Name? - British Bus Companies
- Thread starter John Luxton
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Its more than just a registered company name being an active operators licence albeit the vehicle are branded these days as The Blackburn Bus Company
northwichcat
Established Member
Doing that doesn't require all the paperwork that changing the name would need. It also makes it easier if Stagecoach decide to sell an operation. They could just put the business up for sale and a management buyout could start running it as Yorkshire Traction again.
It is worth reading the https://nationalbusmanual.com/ for the background on the whole NBC colour(s) history.
I take the point about cream: cream was always a very rich colour whereas the National Express white seemed to become a sort of off white or even dirty white in no time at all.
I think one of the problems is that in order to appease staff resistant to change there is always a temptation to make some form of concession which either sticks or eventually disappears because time has healed the wound.
When National Bus Company was formed staff were very proud of the original company they had worked for. This was mirrored in British Railways where staff were very proud of which of the Big 4 they had worked for and often retained and displayed old badges on their uniforms for many many years thereafter. The regionalisation of BR effectively pandered to this as far as the old GWR and SR were concerned. Bit different for LMS and LNER where the new regions reflected a different set up not least in Scotland.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed, and whilst the individual operating subsidiaries carried a fleetname, the over-riding image was that of NATIONAL - it appeared on all the publicity with no mention of the local operating company. When Stagecoach had stripes and moved from individual opco names e.g. Hampshire Bus, part of the Stagecoach Group, to being Stagecoach Hampshire Bus. So for most people, the overriding image was Stagecoach.
As for the change to poppy red or leaf green, it isn't as clear cut as that. The THC/Tilling firms already had a standardised colour scheme of either Tilling Red or Tilling Green with cream (rather than white) though I guess Midland General was an exception owing to a historic covenant.
By far the biggest change was in the BET fleets where there was very little consistency. For instance, Devon General had a rich red, off white band waistrail and roof. PMT had a lighter red with off white window surrounds. Midland Red was a deeper red, no white/cream (but DPs had black roofs). The three South Wales firms had a common scheme, again all over red but darker still. East Kent was a maroon rather than red, with off white roof and window surrounds. Southdown was apple green and cream, whereas Maidstone and District was a dark green. Of course, there were East Yorkshire and Sunderland District who had blue.
Yes but think about this. You had a Tilling business that was partially formed out of the former NOTC aka National. So you had Southern National, Western National and Eastern National, all in the same livery. How different is that compared to First in 2012 with First Devon, First Kernow and First Essex?
That too is a good point. One noted example was when Wilts and Dorset was amalgamated into Hants and Dorset.
The General Manager of H&D heard that the loss of identity in 1972 was not welcomed by the W&D staff. As a smart bit of management, he said "in that case, we'll go red" so the buses all carried Hants and Dorset fleetnames but W&D red (actually poppy red) was chosen for the combined fleet.
The Midland General and Notts & Derby (both blue) fleets were amalgamated into Trent (red). Wellglade have made use of both of those old fleetnames although Midland General was only used briefly.
One partial amalgamation proposed that did not take place in NBC days was West Yorkshire taking over Uniteds southern operations worked by the Ripon depot. It took to 1996 for it to take place principly so that Blazefields Harrogate & District operation could gain sole control of the 36 between Leeds and Ripon.
One partial amalgamation proposed that did not take place in NBC days was West Yorkshire taking over Uniteds southern operations worked by the Ripon depot. It took to 1996 for it to take place principly so that Blazefields Harrogate & District operation could gain sole control of the 36 between Leeds and Ripon.
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Chris 76
Member
Interesting thread. I'm puzzled why anyone should feel any nostalgia or affection for 'Badgerline' as a brand. I grew up in Bristol Omnibus territory and thought the Badgerline name, livery and style of application was awful. The badger motif looks more like a platypus than a badger. Not sure why First have resurrected it as a local brand for their Weston-Bristol interurban routes. When Radio 4's Today programme's business correspondent announced a story involving the company (maybe stock market flotation, or the birth of First Group merger between Grampian Transport and Badgerline) his attempt to say 'Badgerline' dissolved into laughter.
The historical company names have little recognition for today's public, particularly the Tilling companies. Crosville had interesting origins in the Crosland-Taylor founding family, but most reflected geographical territory to varying degrees of vagueness. United Counties could have been almost anywhere, and is not the only business to have struggled to find a meaningful name for a territory that isn't a well-defined or recognised region. There was the Midshires building society and today Three Counties Radio serves Bucks, Beds, (is Northants the third, or Hertfordshire, or Oxfordshire?). Not the real Midlands, South East or East Anglia, anyway.
But I am glad that 'Thames Valley' is back, because it accurately represents the territory of that part of Reading buses, and will probably be well-managed by them. Just no return of 'Alder Valley', please.
The historical company names have little recognition for today's public, particularly the Tilling companies. Crosville had interesting origins in the Crosland-Taylor founding family, but most reflected geographical territory to varying degrees of vagueness. United Counties could have been almost anywhere, and is not the only business to have struggled to find a meaningful name for a territory that isn't a well-defined or recognised region. There was the Midshires building society and today Three Counties Radio serves Bucks, Beds, (is Northants the third, or Hertfordshire, or Oxfordshire?). Not the real Midlands, South East or East Anglia, anyway.
But I am glad that 'Thames Valley' is back, because it accurately represents the territory of that part of Reading buses, and will probably be well-managed by them. Just no return of 'Alder Valley', please.
jp4712
Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 470
… And Lancashire United Transport Limited?Snag with that is Lancahire United Ltd is a Transdev Blazefield company that is active on Companies House
LANCASHIRE UNITED LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
LANCASHIRE UNITED LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activityfind-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk
Well that's a company that appears to be owned by the Museum of Transport in Manchester.
The original company ended its life as First Ashton Limited before being dissolved.
As is all easily found out via Companies House.
I remember the infamous British Bus being known as Drawlane in its previous incarnation and, before that, Endless Holdings. Drawlane sounded like either a maths instrument, or an art teacher giving a pupil an instruction.
There were also off-the-shelf companies. A few which I remember are:
- Proudmutual, Northumbria and Kentish Bus's parent company.
- Musterphantom, used to establish Solent Blue Line.
- Lycidas 167, renamed to Reiver Ventures to effect the management buyout of Lowland Scottish from the Scottish Bus Group.
- Comlaw 313, which became GCT, Strathclyde Buses' low-cost operation.
I'm sure there were many others.
There were also off-the-shelf companies. A few which I remember are:
- Proudmutual, Northumbria and Kentish Bus's parent company.
- Musterphantom, used to establish Solent Blue Line.
- Lycidas 167, renamed to Reiver Ventures to effect the management buyout of Lowland Scottish from the Scottish Bus Group.
- Comlaw 313, which became GCT, Strathclyde Buses' low-cost operation.
I'm sure there were many others.
To be precise, these bus services were Western National because in the 1930s the Great Western Railway became a half-owner of the National Omnibus services that were within their area. Likewise the Southern Railway did this for the operations that were in their area, becoming Southern National, and the operations in East Anglia were similarly half-sold to the LNER to become Eastern National. The old company's overall network was a bit of a discontinuous mix, and as commented some parts were moved around later.
There had been a change in legislation around 1930 which allowed railway companies to take half ownership of bus operations within their own areas, but not beyond.
Corporately Western and Southern National were a strange operation, headquartered in Exeter, a place they didn't serve, as all the network buses in that part of Devon were run by a separate company called Devon General. It was just an office building there. The directors from the National company were the same for both companies, only the ones from the railways were different, and central activities like accounting staff, and purchase of vehicles, were common. The two companies also each operated in discontinuous areas all around their territories, with separate timetable books for each part, but did quite a bit of joint operation - the routes from Taunton down to Chard or Seaton were shared, and apart from a one-word difference in the name on the side depending on which depot it came from, that hardly anyone noticed, the buses were the same.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
You are quite correct - I was just trying to simplify
Devon General was, of course, a BET company. Even in the 1950s/60s, WN/SN built a new set of offices in Exeter; they still exist (much modified) as part of the college IIRC
John Luxton
Established Member
Exeter certainly was an odd choice for HQ but perhaps WNOC/SNOC always hoped for what eventually happened in 1970 - the acquistion of Devon General when National House turned out to be well located almost in the heart of the empire.
Though a BET operation I note that old timetables as with the WNOC/SNOC claimed association with the railways.
After the 1930 change in legislation the big four railway companies, who were some of the largest overall companies by revenue in the country, were allowed to buy half shares in bus companies, and rapidly did so all around. In those times the new and expanding larger bus operators were quite profitable. When the share of Western National was taken, the GWR "paid" for their acquisition in part by handing over the odd services they operated directly; commonly known the GWR had a pioneer operation from Helston to The Lizard, but also the GWR bus bases at Trowbridge and Stroud, outside the old National operating area, were rolled in as well. Similar happened with the narrow-gauge Corris Railway, which the GWR bought up in 1930, not for the moribund railway but for their quite successful bus operations they ran in the area, which were then soon merged in to the Crosville bus company, where now the LMS railway had 50% ownership.
The railway partly regretted letting these go, as they used to be operated integral with their collection and delivery lorries, and indeed in those simpler times they used to exchange bodies on a chassis, delivery lorry in the week, passenger road excursion to the coast at weekends.
How often does two operators with the same fleetname crop up? In York a while back both First
and Transdev
had York emblazed on their vehicles,subsquently resolved by Transdev changing to York & Country as part of the Alex Hornby led rebranding of Transdev Blazefield operations
That incidentally lead to Lancashire United branding as The Blackburn Bus Company, while Harrogate & District became The Harrogate Bus Company
www.flickr.com
with the immediate effect that Connexions put the same a number of their vehcles
www.flickr.com
- a matter which appears to have resolved itself with the Connexions vehicles being disposed of.
That incidentally lead to Lancashire United branding as The Blackburn Bus Company, while Harrogate & District became The Harrogate Bus Company
Transdev Harrogate Bus Company ‘1’ 1705 - H5 ESU (YK04 JYN)
It was at this point that I realised that in reality, Transdev Harrogate and Connexions are really one in the same. Using refurbished buses with cherished registrations, duplicating services with all number of variations, and just being outright petty to one another. If you want to take a trip...
www.flickr.com
Harrogate Coach Travel | Connexion Buses URH806
On the X1 to St James Park, leaving Harrogate Bus Station on Tuesday 9th August 2016.
www.flickr.com
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Well, Eden Bus Services of West Auckland was a long standing independent that was finally purchased by North East Bus (now Arriva) in 1994. After being run as a low cost unit and four vehicles (in United livery with Eden names), it was lost until a local entrepreneur bought the rights and restarted a small operation from the original premises.
HullRailMan
Member
- Joined
- 8 Oct 2018
- Messages
- 332
Part of the problem with generic branding is where two operating divisions meet. As an example, Stagecoach East Midlands and Stagecoach Yorkshire overlap in Sheffield/Rotherham/Doncaster/Chesterfield but each issue network day tickets that aren’t valid on the other. So, I could use an East Midlands day ticket to arrive in Chesterfield but not use it on local services despite the buses having the same company name and livery. Nice and confusing! There’s even the 77 Worksop - Chesterfield which is jointly run by both divisions, so the East Midland ticket is only technically valid on every other bus.
You then get oddities with the way local operations are divided up. Despite being in Yorkshire, Hull is run by Stagecoach East Midlands, while Chesterfield (firmly in Derbyshire) is part of Stagecoach Yorkshire. Nice and simple!
You then get oddities with the way local operations are divided up. Despite being in Yorkshire, Hull is run by Stagecoach East Midlands, while Chesterfield (firmly in Derbyshire) is part of Stagecoach Yorkshire. Nice and simple!
The one I remember most was the creation of First Edinburgh in 1999, the result of merging of Lowland and Midland Bluebird to form a single company. This also saw the end of SMT as a trading name.
The operating area stretched far beyond Edinburgh, from Balfron in the west to Berwick in the east! Not one of First's better ideas.
The operating area stretched far beyond Edinburgh, from Balfron in the west to Berwick in the east! Not one of First's better ideas.
Stagecoach's presence in Yorkshire has always been less than straightforward. Hull Corporation Transport was bought by Cleveland Transit so for a long time Hull was run from Teeside, as I think Grimsby/ Cleethorpes was too. With the reorganisation following the purchase of Tracky which included Lincolnshire Roadcar (which already served Hull and Grimsby) it made sense for Hull and Grimsby to become part of the East Midlands operation.
Meanwhile in South Yorkshire, Stagecoach Sheffield was (and maybe still is) a separate company the rest of Stagecoach Yorkshire. I think this is a legacy of Yorkshire Traction and Andrew's of Sheffield being separated companies.
northwichcat
Established Member
How often does two operators with the same fleetname crop up? In York a while back both First
and Transdev
had York emblazed on their vehicles,subsquently resolved by Transdev changing to York & Country as part of the Alex Hornby led rebranding of Transdev Blazefield operations
That incidentally lead to Lancashire United branding as The Blackburn Bus Company, while Harrogate & District became The Harrogate Bus Company
with the immediate effect that Connexions put the same a number of their vehclesTransdev Harrogate Bus Company ‘1’ 1705 - H5 ESU (YK04 JYN)
It was at this point that I realised that in reality, Transdev Harrogate and Connexions are really one in the same. Using refurbished buses with cherished registrations, duplicating services with all number of variations, and just being outright petty to one another. If you want to take a trip...
- a matter which appears to have resolved itself with the Connexions vehicles being disposed of.Harrogate Coach Travel | Connexion Buses URH806
On the X1 to St James Park, leaving Harrogate Bus Station on Tuesday 9th August 2016.
I don't think there's anything strange about the first comparison, as long as the York division actually operates in York! Manchester had Stagecoach Manchester and First Manchester as it's main two operators for years, after one acquired GM Buses South and the other acquired GM Buses North.
Two operators calling themselves The Harrogate Bus Company is strange though. More like the areas Stagecoach tried to buy out an operator, they refused, so Stagecoach set up a rival with a similar name.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Really? I'm struggling to recall any examples
All the legals are now under the Yorkshire Traction trading as Stagecoach Yorkshire version. When changes appear on VOSA they appear as this with the Barnsley address on them.
I think one reason Chesterfield is under Stagecoach Yorkshire is quite a number of routes overlap, Chesterfield even run the 43a which runs wholly in Sheffield. With East Midlands apart from the 53 in Sheffield & 19/19a in Rotherham most parts are separate.
HullRailMan
Member
- Joined
- 8 Oct 2018
- Messages
- 332
As I noted above, they cross over in Doncaster with East Midlands operating a whole range of inter urban routes, and Chesterfield with the 77 and Pronto.
That was all to do with one-up man ship. Transdev went through their XX Bus Company rebranding but didn't register the legal identities. Harrogate Coach Travel saw a chance to annoy their competition so registered the legal name Harrogate Bus Company thus being able to legitimately use it too.
northwichcat
Established Member
It was happening in the 90s. ITV did one of their World In Action programmes on it at the time. More recently they used Magic Bus branding.
Gloster
Established Member
If I understand it correctly, the Southern Railway took over half of the Vectis Bus Co. in 1929, with the other half retained by the Dodson Brothers, one of whom had formed the company in 1921. The Dodsons’ share of Southern Vectis passed to Tilling in 1932.
If anything it just caused confusion to visitors and non regular users thinking they were all the same operator or that one had acquired the other. They also registered in 2016 Harrogate and District Bus Company when Transdev have from 1988 Harrogate & District Travel.
There was a BBC One drama, Donovan Quick staring Colin Firth, that was pretty much based on Stagecoach.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I remember the programme that focussed on Stagecoach's business practices in the mid 1990s. It was very much about the ability to use their financial muscle to force operators off the road. IIRC, there were interviews with Catch-A-Bus in South Shields, and with Thanet Bus in Kent. This was in the aftermath of the Darlington debacle, and it was very much on the lines of... "sell us your business or we'll run you into the ground"
However, I can't recall examples of Stagecoach setting up an operation with a rival name having been rebuffed in a purchase.
MagicBus was used during the mid to late 1990s. I remember them appearing in 1997 in Newcastle, and seem to recall that had followed its introduction in Manchester.