What's In a Name? - British Bus Companies

[GusB]

MagicBus was used during the mid to late 1990s. I remember them appearing in 1997 in Newcastle, and seem to recall that had followed its introduction in Manchester.

The use of the Magicbus name goes back further than that. It was originally used in Glasgow when Stagecoach set up competing services upon de-regulation. That operation was then sold to Kelvin Central Buses. Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly certain that there was an agreement for KCB to use the name for a certain period.

 

[northwichcat]

I remember the programme that focussed on Stagecoach's business practices in the mid 1990s. It was very much about the ability to use their financial muscle to force operators off the road. IIRC, there were interviews with Catch-A-Bus in South Shields, and with Thanet Bus in Kent. This was in the aftermath of the Darlington debacle, and it was very much on the lines of... "sell us your business or we'll run you into the ground"

However, I can't recall examples of Stagecoach setting up an operation with a rival name having been rebuffed in a purchase.

It would have been this programme. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2322267/ It doesn't look like anyone's uploaded an old VHS copy to Youtube.

I do recall one operator who had set up bus services using coaches to attract more patronage. Stagecoach offered to buy the operation, the owner declined the offer. I can't remember the name of the operator but say it was Jones Coaches. The owner was then giving a story of how a duplicate route was registered by another business who under something along the lines of Jolly Jones Coachline but using modern buses, rather than coaches. They added a letter to the service number and timed their services to be 5 minutes ahead of Jones Coaches' ones. When Jones Coaches became an insolvent, the Jones Coachline name disappeared, the new buses disappeared and oldish buses in Stagecoach livery took their place.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The use of the Magicbus name goes back further than that. It was originally used in Glasgow when Stagecoach set up competing services upon de-regulation. That operation was then sold to Kelvin Central Buses. Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly certain that there was an agreement for KCB to use the name for a certain period.

Apologies - I was referring to the use of Magicbus as a competitive tool in and of itself (i.e. no apparent Stagecoach fleetnames, all blue livery etc)

The earlier Magicbus was a competitive operation but vehicles were in Stagecoach stripes, and featured an interesting combo of Lodekkas and Routemasters plus whatever older stuff was circulating in the Stagecoach empire.

It would have been this programme. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2322267/ It doesn't look like anyone's uploaded an old VHS copy to Youtube.

I do recall one operator who had set up bus services using coaches to attract more patronage. Stagecoach offered to buy the operation, the owner declined the offer. I can't remember the name of the operator but say it was Jones Coaches. The owner was then giving a story of how a duplicate route was registered by another business who under something along the lines of Jolly Jones Coachline but using modern buses, rather than coaches. They added a letter to the service number and timed their services to be 5 minutes ahead of Jones Coaches' ones. When Jones Coaches became an insolvent, the Jones Coachline name disappeared, the new buses disappeared and oldish buses in Stagecoach livery took their place.

The transmission date of 1996 ties in with my earlier post.

When Stagecoach entered the competitive fray, it was usually under the own auspices. I vaguely recall Magic Minis also being used in Inverness (can you recall @GusB ?) and I think there was some other instance near Aberdeen where vehicles ran in overall white?

However, "passing off" hasn't really been something that Stagecoach has done.

There was the notable episode (c.1988?) where Transit Holdings were to commence an operation in Basingstoke. Stagecoach retaliated in advance with all white Leyland Nationals with FREEBUS fleetnames to operate a free bus service across the main corridor in Torbay (Torquay to Paignton Zoo??) - peace very quickly broke out and Basingstoke Transit never appeared. They actually did this in conjunction with City of Oxford, who had good reason to help Stagecoach, as they also had Transit Holdings on their patch

 

[GusB]

When Stagecoach entered the competitive fray, it was usually under the own auspices. I vaguely recall Magic Minis also being used in Inverness (can you recall @GusB ?) and I think there was some other instance near Aberdeen where vehicles ran in overall white?

I vaguely recall Magic Minis, but I don't think it was in Inverness; services there were operated under the Inverness Traction name. Having said that, when Stagecoach decided to go all out against Highland there were so many buses from all over the country, so it's possible that Magic Minis was one of the many names. The large batch of Mercedes with G-TSL and G-PAO registrations was spread quite widely and were regularly shunted around.

With reference to the overall white operation near Aberdeen, I think you're referring to the erstwhile Alexanders North East. This was formed by ex Northern Scottish employees and it stepped in to rescue the original Inverness Traction operation. When it failed, I think it's at this point that Stagecoach took over the IT operation; the Aberdeen services passed to Grampian. The original vehicles were leased, so Grampian used its own coaches carrying the Alexanders fleet name (literally a bit of white vinyl stuck over the green and cream livery!)

I'm a bit vague on dates, but this must have been just before the Stagecoach acquisition of Northern Scottish, as Grampian's out of town routes were withdrawn shortly after this event, with Northern withdrawing from all but two of the city routes.

I'll have to dig out a couple of books to help me refresh my memory, but they were interesting times. The IT saga is certainly a good example of Stagecoach using its muscle to force a competitor to back down.

 

[RT4038]

Wasn't there a guy (can't remember his name, but his main business was Transport Training or something) at ?Bankfoot who bought a couple of redundant Stagecoach buses and ran them in livery in competition between there and Perth, as Stag coach (with the 'e' having been removed)? Right in Stagecoach's heartland, so to speak. Ended up with his O licence being revoked after failing to attend scheduled hearings with the beak in Edinburgh. Maybe about 2009 or so, possibly a little earlier??

 

[DunsBus]

Can anyone remember the Seddon which Eastern had painted in a Harris of Armadale lookalike livery, or the "Mackays Coaches" livery used by Stagecoach to deal with a competitor on the Coupar Angus corridor?

 

[Stan Drews]

Can anyone remember the Seddon which Eastern had painted in a Harris of Armadale lookalike livery, or the "Mackays Coaches" livery used by Stagecoach to deal with a competitor on the Coupar Angus corridor?

The Mackays Coaches interlude was a Strathtay Scottish initiative that was many years prior to their acquisition by Stagecoach.

 

[GusB]

Can anyone remember the Seddon which Eastern had painted in a Harris of Armadale lookalike livery, or the "Mackays Coaches" livery used by Stagecoach to deal with a competitor on the Coupar Angus corridor?

On the latter point, the Mackay's Coaches identity was actually used by Strathtay rather than Stagecoach, before the latter became the dominant operator in Perth. Leopards SL20/8 and 68 are listed as being liveried as such in my 1989 Scottish Bus Handbook.

 

[northwichcat]

Just found an early day motion from 1994 that was signed by 64 members, all either Labour or Lib Dem, including Jeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone.

That this House expresses its sympathy with the people of Darlington who have been subjected to congestion, pollution and disturbance from a protracted bus war involving over 200 buses per hour running through the town centre; notes that the recent arrival of Stagecoach buses in the town offering free fares for a limited period led to the collapse of the 90 year old Darlington Transport Company; believes that once again Stagecoach is using its financial muscle to elbow its rivals off the road in an effect to create a private monopoly over bus services; and calls upon the Secretary of State for Transport to end the disaster of bus deregulation and the President of the Board of Trade to conduct a full-scale inquiry into the operating practices of Stagecoach.

BUS DEREGULATION AND STAGECOACH - Early Day Motions - UK Parliament

That this House expresses its sympathy with the people of Darlington who have been subjected to congestion, pollution and disturbance from a protracted bus war involving over 200 buses per hour running through the town centre; notes that the recent arrival of Stagecoach buses in the town...

edm.parliament.uk

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just found an early day motion from 1994 that was signed by 64 members, all either Labour or Lib Dem, including Jeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone.

BUS DEREGULATION AND STAGECOACH - Early Day Motions - UK Parliament

That this House expresses its sympathy with the people of Darlington who have been subjected to congestion, pollution and disturbance from a protracted bus war involving over 200 buses per hour running through the town centre; notes that the recent arrival of Stagecoach buses in the town...

edm.parliament.uk

The reality is that whilst Stagecoach administered the final blow, the situation was much more complex and not solely the fault of Stagecoach.

 

[PG]

With reference to the overall white operation near Aberdeen, I think you're referring to the erstwhile Alexanders North East. This was formed by ex Northern Scottish employees and it stepped in to rescue the original Inverness Traction operation. When it failed, I think it's at this point that Stagecoach took over the IT operation; the Aberdeen services passed to Grampian. The original vehicles were leased, so Grampian used its own coaches carrying the Alexanders fleet name (literally a bit of white vinyl stuck over the green and cream livery!)

I seem to remember Northern Scottish ran additional, extra, coaches on their own Buchan routes in plain white which were branded as The Original Alexander Company.

I'm a bit vague on dates, but this must have been just before the Stagecoach acquisition of Northern Scottish, as Grampian's out of town routes were withdrawn shortly after this event, with Northern withdrawing from all but two of the city routes.

IIRC Grampian had withdrawn its country routes by 1992 with Alexanders (North East) having shut up shop during the previous year.

 

[DunsBus]

On the latter point, the Mackay's Coaches identity was actually used by Strathtay rather than Stagecoach, before the latter became the dominant operator in Perth. Leopards SL20/8 and 68 are listed as being liveried as such in my 1989 Scottish Bus Handbook.

So it was. I meant to type Strathtay - I don't know where I got Stagecoach from! . I seem to recall that the Mackays Coaches identity was inspired by Eastern Scottish's Harris lookalike.

I seem to remember Northern Scottish ran additional, extra, coaches on their own Buchan routes in plain white which were branded as The Original Alexander Company.

IIRC Grampian had withdrawn its country routes by 1992 with Alexanders (North East) having shut up shop during the previous year.

Grampian withdrew its country routes with effect from 7th July 1991. Northern Scottish withdrew from all bar two of its Aberdeen city routes on the same date.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I remember the programme that focussed on Stagecoach's business practices in the mid 1990s. It was very much about the ability to use their financial muscle to force operators off the road. IIRC, there were interviews with Catch-A-Bus in South Shields, and with Thanet Bus in Kent. This was in the aftermath of the Darlington debacle, and it was very much on the lines of... "sell us your business or we'll run you into the ground"

This video sounds similar, featuring interviews with Thanet Bus and Easyrider on the south coast of England.

 

[GusB]

Grampian withdrew its country routes with effect from 7th July 1991. Northern Scottish withdrew from all bar two of its Aberdeen city routes on the same date.

I'm impressed that you can supply us with the exact date!

This makes sense, as Stagecoach was announced as the preferred bidder for Northern Scottish earlier that year and it didn't take long before the "wasteful competition" was reduced. Am I correct in thinking that it was the 55 (later re-numbered to 5) and the 59 that remained?

I seem to remember Northern Scottish ran additional, extra, coaches on their own Buchan routes in plain white which were branded as The Original Alexander Company.

I had always thought that Northern used existing coaches in fleet livery to combat the Alexander's North East incursion, but I was only an occasional visitor to the city at that point, so I wasn't a regular observer of the goings-on. When I moved to Aberdeen in 1992, things had settled down a bit and "Stagecoachisation" was well apace. I do think it was a bit cheeky to use the Alexander name, but if you don't take steps to protect it...

Not entirely on topic, but relevant - I worked for a while in New Telecom House (Aberdeen) in the Directory Enquiries team and I remember taking a call from an elderly lady in "the Broch". I was somewhat taken aback when she asked me for the telephone number of "Alexander's buses in Fraserburgh". At that point in time (2000-ish) there was no chance of any confusion but, had I followed the correct procedure and entered the relevant request into the system, she'd have ended up with a "no trace". I played the "local knowledge" card and gave her the number she needed but she'd have been disappointed if that call had ended up elsewhere in the UK. I also explained to her that if she needed that number in future she'd need to ask for the correct name - "Bluebird Buses", but soon after that it became "Stagecoach Bluebird".

Of course, this is all irrelevant in this age of the internet, and that lady is probably long gone, but it illustrates how brand names persist. I understand the desire to introduce a corporate brand, but it's possible to do this without wiping out local identities entirely.

 

[Mwanesh]

Stagecoach's presence in Yorkshire has always been less than straightforward. Hull Corporation Transport was bought by Cleveland Transit so for a long time Hull was run from Teeside, as I think Grimsby/ Cleethorpes was too. With the reorganisation following the purchase of Tracky which included Lincolnshire Roadcar (which already served Hull and Grimsby) it made sense for Hull and Grimsby to become part of the East Midlands operation.

Meanwhile in South Yorkshire, Stagecoach Sheffield was (and maybe still is) a separate company the rest of Stagecoach Yorkshire. I think this is a legacy of Yorkshire Traction and Andrew's of Sheffield being separated companies.

The Chesterfield, Mansfield and Worksop operations were branded as Chesterfield Transport. With the purchase of Yorkshire Traction and reorganisation that's when they were broken up with Chesterfield moving to Yorkshire and Mansfield and Worksop moved to East Midlands

 

[317 forever]

The one I remember most was the creation of First Edinburgh in 1999, the result of merging of Lowland and Midland Bluebird to form a single company. This also saw the end of SMT as a trading name.

The operating area stretched far beyond Edinburgh, from Balfron in the west to Berwick in the east! Not one of First's better ideas.

And of course, the whole thing has been broken up piecemeal and sold to Lothian Buses, West Coast Motors or McGills or closed down altogether.

The reality is that whilst Stagecoach administered the final blow, the situation was much more complex and not solely the fault of Stagecoach.

Stagecoach's antics in Darlington were quite short-sighted in 2 ways:

1. They eventually sold Darlington anyway, to Arriva in 2007
2. The frontrunner to buy Darlington Transport were Yorkshire Traction, who withdrew their bid when Stagecoach introduced free buses. Stagecoach went on to buy Yorkshire Traction Group in 2005, and would have acquired Darlington then anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

1. They eventually sold Darlington anyway, to Arriva in 2007
2. The frontrunner to buy Darlington Transport were Yorkshire Traction, who withdrew their bid when Stagecoach introduced free buses. Stagecoach went on to buy Yorkshire Traction Group in 2005, and would have acquired Darlington then anyway.

Think about what you've said. They sold Darlington in 2007, so waiting until 2005 to enter Darlington may not have been attractive. The acquisition of Yorkshire Traction was to get the Sheffield and Chesterfield market, which is why they sold off Huddersfield almost as soon as they could.

 

[RT4038]

Think about what you've said. They sold Darlington in 2007, so waiting until 2005 to enter Darlington may not have been attractive. The acquisition of Yorkshire Traction was to get the Sheffield and Chesterfield market, which is why they sold off Huddersfield almost as soon as they could.

Yorkshire Traction was for sale at a discount because of the large amount of investment required to replace a lot of non-DDA vehicles as the deadline was approaching. YT did not have the financial resources to do that. I think Stagecoach saw the opportunity for a fairly sizeable operator, had the cash/resources available both for the purchase, the fleet replacement and the wherewithall to make economies, and took it. Aside from the Yorkshire business, they got a Scottish operation too, plus the more marginal Lincolnshire operations.

 

[northwichcat]

Yorkshire Traction was for sale at a discount because of the large amount of investment required to replace a lot of non-DDA vehicles as the deadline was approaching. YT did not have the financial resources to do that. I think Stagecoach saw the opportunity for a fairly sizeable operator, had the cash/resources available both for the purchase, the fleet replacement and the wherewithall to make economies, and took it. Aside from the Yorkshire business, they got a Scottish operation too, plus the more marginal Lincolnshire operations.

Did Yorkshire Traction have more deckers than saloons at the time of sale, or was that just an impression I got from seeing them running quite a lot of deckers. I actually recall someone who worked for an open top bus tour company saying they were struggling to find spare parts but had identified Yorkshire Traction as an operator with the same model of bus still in use.

 

[ian1944]

It would take someone more eloquent than me (Dunsbus?) to do justice to the shambles that was McGills in West Lothian after they bought First out and before they finally ratted off, citing competition (allegedly unfair, from a municipal operator, not named but clearly Lothian). They chose to resurrect the Eastern Scottish brand, but the much-hyped (more hysterical than historical) livery hardly appeared on the ramshackle heaps which trundled round Livingston and district. It took some doing, but the general feeling seemed to be that First had been better.

 

[nw1]

Depends what one considers local. Western National used to have a slogan I have seen on old timetables of "Through the West of England" thus that set their geographical boundary quite well with Stroud being on the northern tip of the West Country and Penzance the southern one.

How did that work given that much of that area was part of Bristol Omnibus? Did Western National border it on the north, east and south?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stagecoach's antics in Darlington were quite short-sighted in 2 ways:

1. They eventually sold Darlington anyway, to Arriva in 2007
2. The frontrunner to buy Darlington Transport were Yorkshire Traction, who withdrew their bid when Stagecoach introduced free buses. Stagecoach went on to buy Yorkshire Traction Group in 2005, and would have acquired Darlington then anyway.

Think about what you've said. They sold Darlington in 2007, so waiting until 2005 to enter Darlington may not have been attractive. The acquisition of Yorkshire Traction was to get the Sheffield and Chesterfield market, which is why they sold off Huddersfield almost as soon as they could.

I'll keep this short and then get back on topic.

I'm sure that Stagecoach regretted Darlington far sooner, and it was a pyrrhic victory, leading to being obliged to divest shareholdings in both Strathclyde and Mainline. They didn't envisage that, let alone what may happen 10 or more years hence.

How did that work given that much of that area was part of Bristol Omnibus? Did Western National border it on the north, east and south?

Stroud was an island of Western National and bordered onto BOC (as did some Red and White operations) and these were tidied up by transferring them in 1950. Arguably, it wasn't until 1983 that Stroud got a local fleetname in Stroud Valleys.

Trowbridge lasted longer and bordered Wilts and Dorset to the East, and Bristol Omnibus to the North, West and South. Remember that BOC operations in Bath ran under the Bath Services name until the late 1960s when they finally took the Bristol name. Western National transferred Trowbridge in 1970, but I think it was in 1983 when Bristol Omnibus Co was split that the Bath fleetname returned.

That's the thing about historic names. They are historic often only at a point in time. There's been so many changes and tweaks - in Northumberland, you'd love to get rid of Arriva blandness but to what.... United, or Northumbria (a firm that existed only for a dozen or so years)?

 

[TUC]

The killing off of classic bus company names, no matter what their local appeal, can be largely placed at the door of London investment companies and advertising organisations. It is the same rationale that has led to local radio station names being replaced by Capital, Greatest Hits Radio etc. Those investors and advertisers find it impossible to understand that a brand they don't see around them in London could have any commercial value. It is a very insular, short-sighted approach.

 

[nw1]

Stroud was an island of Western National and bordered onto BOC (as did some Red and White operations) and these were tidied up by transferring them in 1950. Arguably, it wasn't until 1983 that Stroud got a local fleetname in Stroud Valleys.

Ah ok, thanks. Stroud Valleys is the name I was familiar with when I occasionally visited the area in the early-to-mid 90s. ISTR it was the Cheltenham and Gloucester company which had four separate brands for Stroud, Cheltenham, Gloucester and Swindon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The killing off of classic bus company names, no matter what their local appeal, can be largely placed at the door of London investment companies and advertising organisations. It is the same rationale that has led to local radio station names being replaced by Capital, Greatest Hits Radio etc. Those investors and advertisers find it impossible to understand that a brand they don't see around them in London could have any commercial value. It is a very insular, short-sighted approach.

This has gone on since time immemorial, not just in the modern day. Remember that, in South Wales, firms like Rhondda, Western Welsh, United Welsh, Red and White were all lost in the 1970s. Think of all the municipals that disappeared in Greater Manchester under the SELNEC name, or the other PTEs? In the early days of the NBC, there was a lot of rationalisation with Alder Valley, the loss of Wilts and Dorset and Midland General (and the ones rolled into Northern), and the introduction of the National coach network meaning historic local names were either lost or relegated to a small fleetname. Go further back and you have White Rose of Rhyl being consumed by Crosville.

It has always been the way of the industry. Yes, there's the stock market profile as a factor, but often, it's just the simplicity of not repainting vehicles, savings from consistent branding etc

Of course, and this could almost be a thread in itself, is having "local names" that are nothing of the sort. Lincolnshire Road Car was a classic example with their Newark depot (which led to a short lived East Notts fleetname in the 1980s), but what of National Welsh in the Forest of Dean (again later remedied) or indeed, Bristol on buses that were nowhere near Bristol!

Ah ok, thanks. Stroud Valleys is the name I was familiar with when I occasionally visited the area in the early-to-mid 90s. ISTR it was the Cheltenham and Gloucester company which had four separate brands for Stroud, Cheltenham, Gloucester and Swindon.

When Bristol Omnibus was split in 1983, the four depots that formed Cheltenham and Gloucester got those local fleetnames as well as gaining new liveries (City of Gloucester = Blue, Cheltenham District and Swindon & District = poppy red); only Stroud Valleys retained leaf green. However, the remaining Bristol Omnibus gained local fleetnames with the return of Bath, and the introduction of Bristol Country (for the Marlborough St depot ops), Citybus for Bristol city ops, and Weston and Wells, until it was split again with Cityline and Badgerline.