Whats the best ticket to go about when travelling in London?

[ATW Alex 101]

Good morning, evening, afternoon,

I will be travelling to London for a bit of spotting/photting on Friday. I want to go from Euston to Hadley wood via Old street, then back to Moorgate then to Amersham then back to marylebone then to Liverpool street then stratford then back to Euston.

There will be 2 children and 1 adult. I have figured that the best option would be an all zone travelcard. We have a family and friends railcard.

I have looked all over the internet and cannot find any prices. I will be travelling to London with the LM Great escape if that helps. Can anybody please provide me with some prices, or a better option?

Merci

 

[MikeWh]

Zone 1-9 travelcard off-peak with discount is £7.60 adult and £2.00 child.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Thanks Mike.

It's just that when I brought the all zones travelcard, the two tickets were only 7 pound something

 

[LexyBoy]

It's just that when I brought the all zones travelcard, the two tickets were only 7 pound something

Could you clarify what the tickets were? In your first post you mention 1 adult, 2 children but here refer to only two tickets.

Note also that "All Zones Travelcard" is usually used to refer to a Zones 1-6 Travelcard (£5.60/£2.00). The Zones 7-9 are "special" and don't fit properly with Zones 1-6, so you need to specifically refer to these Zones to ensure you get the right ticket.

 

[Zoe]

The Zones 7-9 are "special" and don't fit properly with Zones 1-6, so you need to specifically refer to these Zones to ensure you get the right ticket.

Also does the Zone 7-9 travelcard only permit one return journey west of Harrow if using Chiltern but unlimited journeys on LUL?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Ah crap, that's a typo in the OP, it was only 1 child 1 adult rather than 2 child.

I asked for an all zones travelcard with a family and friends discount and it was 5 something for adult and 2 for me

 

[LexyBoy]

Sounds like you got a Z1-6 Travelcard then. Did you leave or attempt to leave any of the stations in Z7-9?

Also does the Zone 7-9 travelcard only permit one return journey west of Harrow if using Chiltern but unlimited journeys on LUL?

Not heard of this, I would expect it to be valid for unlimited journeys as a Travelcard product. Would it even be possible to know how it had been used?

When I called them 'special' I meant that they are dealt with in the ticketing system using a bit of a bodge, and that they apply only to one line rather than following the concentric rings system.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Nope got as far as Harrow on the hill

 

[LexyBoy]

Nope got as far as Harrow on the hill

Harrow on the Hill is only in Zone 5. You'd need to in beyond Moor Park before leaving Zone 6.

 

[Zoe]

Not heard of this, I would expect it to be valid for unlimited journeys as a Travelcard product. Would it even be possible to know how it had been used?

I believe the Travelcard Agreement which the TOCs are subject to only covers zones 1 - 6. I can't see the TOCs agreeing to any changes to this agreement that would result in a loss in revenue unless they are forced to. There is a post about this at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=735015&postcount=51

Travelcards valid for travel wholly within the London Zones 1-6 area are referred to as ‘In-boundary’. Travelcards issued for travel from stations outside Zones 1-6 of the London Fare Zones area are referred to as ‘Out-boundary’ and include one return journey between the origin station shown on the ticket, and the boundary of Fare Zone 6, i.e. Boundary Zone 6.

It should be especially noted that London Underground issued printed tickets which include Zones 7, 8 and/or 9 are valid for a single or return journey on National Rail services to any station within the zones for which the ticket is issued. For example: an LU issued printed single ticket for Zones 1-8 is valid for travel on either Chiltern Railways or LU services to Chalfont & Latimer, or alternatively on London Overground or London Midland services to Bushey or Watford High Street.

It is clear from the above that National Rail issued travelcards are only valid on National Rail for unlimited travel within zones 1-6 and for one journey from the origin to the boundary of zone 6

LU issued cards are only valid for one return journey on NR services in zones 7-9 but are unlimited on LU services.

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks Zoe, wasn't aware of that.

 

[Zoe]

Thanks Zoe, wasn't aware of that.

Where it gets interesting is with London Overground as even though I believe the fares are set by TfL (with the exception of Euston to Watford Junction) it would still be considered part of NR and so only one return journey permitted outside of zone 6?

 

[yorkie]

That's not enforced, nor is it enforceable, and I have never seen this stated anywhere that would form part of the Contract.

 

[bb21]

I do not agree with the interpretation. I am yet to see any publicity promoting Travelcards which have inclusive validity from Zone 7 to Zone 9 to state that it is only valid for one single/return journey to the boundary of Zone 6 on National Rail. A Travelcard is valid for unlimited travel within the Zones indicated on all modes of transport. Therefore I doubt the enforceability of this special arrangement.

In addition it would appear that the second paragraph of OwlMan's quote from The Manual does not appear to be there any more.

 

[Zoe]

A Travelcard is valid for unlimited travel within the Zones indicated on all modes of transport.

The TOCs are required in their franchise agreements to accept travelcards for unlimited travel under the 1995 Travelcard Agreement. I can't find anything in the franchise agreements requiring the TOCs accept travelcards for unlimited travel outside of this agreement so it would be quite a surprise if the TOCs have indeed agreed to this when it could lose them revenue. It may well be that there is some arrangement for Amersham services though.

 

[bb21]

The TOCs are required in their franchise agreements to accept travelcards for unlimited travel under the 1995 Travelcard Agreement covering zones 1 - 6. Changes to this agreement would have required the agreement of the TOCs. I can't find anything in the franchise agreements requiring the TOCs to agree to any changes TfL introduce so it would be quite a surprise if the TOCs have indeed agreed to something that would likely lose them revenue.

I am not commenting on the Travelcard Agreement. What is contained in the Travelcard Agreement is not something a passenger should be worrying about.

There is nothing to indicate that a Travelcard issued AAA Zones 7-9 is only valid for one single/return journey outside the boundary of Zone 6 on National Rail, even in The Manual.

 

[Zoe]

There is nothing to indicate that a Travelcard issued AAA Zones 7-9

Is it stated that AAA 7 - 9 is not just a travelcard that allows one return journeys from any station in TfL zones 7 - 9 to the zone 6 boundary and then unlimited travel within zones 1 - 6 like a travelcard from Hemel Hempstead would?

 

[yorkie]

Is it clearly states that AAA 7 - 9 is not just out of boundary ticket that allows one return journeys from any station in TfL zones 7 - 9 to the zone 6 boundary?

Not sure that question really makes sense, but no, I do not think it "clearly states" that at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think it's quite clear that 'Also available at Zones 7 - 9' is adequately defined in the NRCoC:-

"If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket."

 

[bb21]

Is it stated that AAA 7 - 9 is not just a travelcard that allows one return journeys from any station in TfL zones 7 - 9 to the zone 6 boundary and then unlimited travel within zones 1 - 6 like a travelcard from Hemel Hempstead would?

A Zones 1-9 Travelcard (which must be issued AAA Zones 7-9 from any National Rail TIS, as per instruction given in The Manual) is a Travelcard (which is valid for unlimited travel within the zones indicated) issued with validity in Zones 1-6, and additionally in Zones 7-9.

The fact that there is somehow an exclusion clause preventing unlimited travel within the zones on one specific mode of transport, which is neither detailed in any publicly-available information source or The Manual means the exclusion clause cannot realistically form part of the contract between the passenger and the transport operators.

 

[Zoe]

Not sure that question really makes sense, but no, I do not think it "clearly states" that at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

There was a typing error in the post, it should have said "stated" and not "states". I have changed the wording to clarify the situation.

I think it's quite clear that 'Also available at Zones 7 - 9' is adequately defined in the NRCoC:-

"If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket."

The "zonal" part of the ticket would be zones 1 - 6 as covered by the Travelcard Agreement. The question is if the AAA 7 - 9 actually has the effect of extending the zonal validity or does it just allow you to start and end at any station within zones 7 - 9.

Travelcard (which is valid for unlimited travel within the zones indicated) issued with validity in Zones 1-6, and additionally in Zones 7-9.

Is there anywhere explicitly stating that it is valid for unlimted travel within zones 7-9 though? I can't find any amendments to the Travelcard Agreement.

 

[yorkie]

I am satisfied with the definition of Zonal in the NRCoC, and that's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned!

 

[bb21]

Is there anywhere explicitly stating that it is valid for unlimted travel within zones 7-9 though?

TfL website suggests that you can "Travel as much as you like, as often as you like" for Travelcards and Zones 1-9 is an option for a Day Travelcard.

NRE suggests that Travelcards are "zonal tickets allowing unlimited travel on London's public transport network" and "can be issued in a range of zonal combinations". Although the Zones 1-9 Day Travelcard is not specifically mentioned, I cannot see how one can be expected to infer from the maps provided that Zones 7-9 are not within the London Fare Zones area.

I am not disputing the claim that the Travelcard Agreement may not include Zones 7-9, however I do not see how a passenger can be expected to understand any such exclusion on National Rail from available sources.

Edit:

In fact, Chiltern's own website describes London Travelcards as tickets that "provide unlimited travel on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway (DLR), Croydon Tramlink, National Rail services, within the period of validity of the ticket and within the zones for which the travelcard covers, and on all London Buses."

If a Travelcard is routed AAA Zones 7-9, then they are surely zones that the Travelcard covers? Otherwise what does it mean?

 

[Zoe]

If a Travelcard is routed AAA Zones 7-9, then they are surely zones that the Travelcard covers? Otherwise what does it mean?

I was just thinking that based on what it said in the manual (anything outside of zone 6 is "out boundary") the "AAA Zones 7-9" part could mean that you could use any station in zones 7 - 9 as the "out boundary" station rather than having to start and end at a specific station. If what it said in the manual wasn't true then why was it ever in there?

 

[bb21]

I guess we will never know the answer, seeing that part of The Manual is no longer there. I reckon we are not going to agree on the interpretation, so let's just say that we will agree to disagree on this one.