Wheelchair-bound peer couldn't board after driver refused to request pushchair moved

[Busaholic]

Fold the kids?

I assume you mean the buggy? We've been over that already.

No, I knew you'd rise to the bait

 

[Antman]

No, I knew you'd rise to the bait

I'm not sure what bait I've risen to?

 

[PeterC]

I love the smug complacency implicit in that comment. Do you really think that the Govt and the Courts are going to humour lazy unmotivated drivers ignoring legislation and clear Court rulings? Get real! Either bus companies will start getting hit with serious fines for non-compliance or retention of driver's licences will become conditional on complying with legislation....

So the driver gets fired for not throwing the non compliant buggy owner off the bus or gets prosecuted for assult by throwing them off the bus.

 

[daikilo]

Are non-foldable buggies/prams allowed on buses? Could say a Silver Cross pram even get down the aisle?

 

[nerd]

So the driver gets fired for not throwing the non compliant buggy owner off the bus or gets prosecuted for assult by throwing them off the bus.

A serious misrepresentation of the current law.

The legal judgement of the Supreme Court specifically ruled out non-compiant buggy users being thrown off a bus. The obligation on the driver is to require the buggy user to fold their buggy and move elsewhere within the bus, asuming that there is space to do so. But if there is nowhere on the bus for the buggy user to move to, there is no duty for the driver to require them to vacate the wheelchair space.

If a passenger is in breach of the passenger conduct regulations; then the driver can summon help from the police to have a non-compliant passenger removed. There are no circumstances where the driver would have the power to manhandle a passenger. But the court very particularly rejected the argument that failure to vacate the wheelchair space could be a breach of the Passenger Conduct Regulations.

 

[nerd]

Are non-foldable buggies/prams allowed on buses? Could say a Silver Cross pram even get down the aisle?

A non-foldable buggy would count as a 'bulky item' in terms of the Passenger Conduct Regulations; and hence only allowed subject to the discretion of the driver, and always subject to the owner being willing to remove them from the bus. In practice, most operators bann unfoldable buggies in their conditions of carriage; as too prams.

In general folded wheelchairs are also banned from buses; so if a wheelchair user prefers to sit in a standard seat (as many do) they must still secure their chair. unfolded, in the wheelchair space; and cannot get on the bus if that space is occupied.

 

[martian boy]

In general folded wheelchairs are also banned from buses; so if a wheelchair user prefers to sit in a standard seat (as many do) they must still secure their chair. unfolded, in the wheelchair space; and cannot get on the bus if that space is occupied.

This is very true....but without starting a major argument....discretion comes into it.

Recently, the wheelchair space was occupied by a wheelchair user. Several stops later, another wheelchair user needed to get on. This particular passenger was on a motorised wheelchair. Seeing the situation, she said she would wait for the next bus. Before the driver could say anything, the other wheelchair user said they would sit in a seat, and his carer would fold the chair. The bus was not particularly full, the wheelchair was not bulky so it was able to be put between seats.

Several stops later.....one RPI waiting. The situation was explained has the first wheelchair user was getting off a couple more stops further on. No more was said.....

Now another problem.....Last bus leaving town centre, one wheelchair boarding......several stops later....another wheelchair.........

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I can see an argument for a free taxi in such circumstances. It must be so rare that it isn't going to be a big cost, I wouldn't object to my fares funding such a thing.

As to the wheelchair user folding their chair and sitting in a seat, I don't see a problem with that if they volunteer to do it. You can't really ask for it, though, as most users won't be in a position to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a passenger is in breach of the passenger conduct regulations; then the driver can summon help from the police to have a non-compliant passenger removed. There are no circumstances where the driver would have the power to manhandle a passenger. But the court very particularly rejected the argument that failure to vacate the wheelchair space could be a breach of the Passenger Conduct Regulations.

Do trespass laws not apply, i.e. by breaching the conditions of carriage the pushchair user is no longer welcome on the "premises", and as such reasonable force can be used to remove them if they do not go voluntarily?

 

[nerd]

Do trespass laws not apply, i.e. by breaching the conditions of carriage the pushchair user is no longer welcome on the "premises", and as such reasonable force can be used to remove them if they do not go voluntarily?

Nope; definitely not. If I have bought a ticket to travel on a bus for a particular journey, I have a licence to be on the bus; so I cannot be a trespasser in the course of that journey (unless I insisted on sitting in the cab). If I do not then comply with the conditions of carriage; then I am in breach of contract; and the operator could access remedies in civil law (a court order) which might revoke the licence and require me to vacate the facility. If I then refuse to leave; the court order could be enforced against me; but without such an order, I cannot be removed as a trespasser.

This was exactly the distinction that the Supreme Court judges were most keen to clarify. The Passenger Conduct regulations do indeed allow for passengers to be removed from a bus (by force if necessary, under police authority) if they "put at risk or unreasonably impede or cause discomfort to any person travelling on or entering or leaving the vehicle, or a driver, inspector, conductor or employee of the operator when doing his work on the vehicle;" The court could simply have declared that failure to vacate a designated wheelchair space when required to do so by the driver, would always amount to 'unreasonable impeding' a wheelchair passenger under the regulations. The court explicitly drew back from this; both because they interpreted the 'bad conduct' intended to be covered by the regulations as being envisaged as more serious than simply not folding a buggy; but also because they did not want to tie down the discretion of the driver to recognise that in a particular circumstance (for instance if the child in the buggy were themselves disabled), there might be good reason for the designated wheelchair space not to be vacated. But there must be a good reason; 'I don't want to' or 'my baby is asleep' isn't enough.

But there are no circumstances where a driver has the power to remove a passenger by force from a bus on a public highway. The power of 'reasonable force' only applies where the trespasser is interfering without authorisation on land in the possession of another. But the bus operator does not possess the highway. If a driver removes a passenger by force (even one in breach of the Conduct Regulations), it is the driver who would be guilty of trespass, not the passenger.

 

[martian boy]

Now another problem.....Last bus leaving town centre, one wheelchair boarding......several stops later....another wheelchair.........

This situation arose several months ago. The other wheelchair was put in the space for buggies. It was reported when back at depot. It was a Saturday night, so getting hold of a taxi would have been next to impossible. The two wheelchair users were going to the same stop about a mile or so away. The driver took his time while traveling, to avoid any harsh braking. Everybody happy. We were later told to use common sense. The last bus is rarely full these days, most passengers being 50+. Born and brought up a different era, it makes a big difference.

 

[6Gman]

Now another problem.....Last bus leaving town centre, one wheelchair boarding......several stops later....another wheelchair.........

Second passenger unable to board (unless he/she can be fitted in somehow as above). No different to an able-bodied passenger waiting for a bus which turns out to be full.

Equality.

 

[Wolfie]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...r-they-refused-to-make-room-for-a3977531.html

A Paris bus driver threw ALL of the passengers off as they refused to make space for a wheelchair user then ran forward with that person as the only passenger! Respect to him.. .

 

[Busaholic]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...r-they-refused-to-make-room-for-a3977531.html

A Paris bus driver threw ALL of the passengers off as they refused to make space for a wheelchair user then ran forward with that person as the only passenger! Respect to him.. .

Bravo!