Wheelchair user trying to board during rush hour

[edwin_m]

I would like to see what would happen on a bus where a person on crutches who cannot stand while the bus throws everyone everywhere as it drives along sits in the wheelchair bay flipup seat as it is the only one left, and a wheelchair user gets on requiring that space.
There is just about enough room to swing a very young kitten.
Would you kick the guy on crutches off the bus, as the new passenger is more disabled than them?
Kick one passenger off to let the other person sit in a normal seat?
Tell the wheelchair user "I'm full, there's another bus just behind me with room"

Isn't that what priority seats are for? There is sometimes a notice on these asking the occupant to vacate it for someone less able to stand, but I don't know if this has any legal force. Other times it just says "Priority Seat" and people are expected to know what it means - which many probably don't or at least claim not to.

 

[IKBrunel]

some people reading this thread might get the impression that people with disabilities are considered an inconvenience on public transport.

I for one, think the DDA is a very positive step for our society.
I'm sure that most of us, if we were to find ourselves wheelchair bound or with deteriorating eyesight etc, would much rather be able to lead normal lives than being reliant on social care provision.

Many of the provisions of the DDA are low cost design requirements especially for new infrastructure, like contrasting coloured train doors or switches & sockets at different heights.

 

[TUC]

As has been pointed out, wheelchair spaces usually have a sign advising that the space will need to be vacated if a wheelchair user needs it so its hard to see why anyone should be in any doubt.

Where a wheelchair user has booked assistance in advance, why not have an appropriate slot in the wheelchair area to place a seat reservation , advising that the space is required from x station?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Isn't that what priority seats are for? There is sometimes a notice on these asking the occupant to vacate it for someone less able to stand, but I don't know if this has any legal force. Other times it just says "Priority Seat" and people are expected to know what it means - which many probably don't or at least claim not to.

Southern have notices on their Priority seats advising who they are for, but virtually without exception those seating in them don't offer them to a passenger that clearly qualifies for their use. What usually happens is someone in a standard seat offers their seat.

 

[tsr]

Southern have notices on their Priority seats advising who they are for, but virtually without exception those seating in them don't offer them to a passenger that clearly qualifies for their use. What usually happens is someone in a standard seat offers their seat.

That is often because the passengers in the Priority Seats are facing away from the doors and engrossed in whatever they're reading/watching/etc. Perhaps if Bombardier had found a way to put a few airline seats facing the other way, or put more table seats by the doors, there wouldn't be that problem.

New 377/6 stock seems to have a number of seats per train with a large Priority Seat marker printed onto their fabric, which goes some way to raising awareness of the fact that they are designated primarily for anyone less able to stand, but of course that doesn't actually do anything for visibility.

I will always give up a Priority Seat if I notice that someone is in need of it, but I don't really consider it my responsibility to twist my neck round from a window seat and peer into the vestibule over the shoulder of the person in the aisle seat at every stop on a rammed all-stations service. If, however, that person were to ask, or if they quite clearly started to look for somewhere to sit in front of me, that's different. Likewise, if I am occupying a tip-up seat in the wheelchair area, I will move as soon as I notice someone in need of it (even with a bike, if they can be accommodated), but some wheelchair users can actually use a level platform without assistance (obviously varying by station & skills of the user) and so I may not notice them if they park behind me in the vestibule. It's happened to me more than once.

 

[142blue]

Erm do not stand in wheelchair spaces, its that simple.

 

[talltim]

It's not tho' is it? If there is no wheelchair user needing it, why let the space go to waste?

 

[SPADTrap]

It's not tho' is it? If there is no wheelchair user needing it, why let the space go to waste?

Same as spare space in first class going to "waste" to people with standard tickets. It is simple really.

 

[cjp]

Err, hang on a minute. What is somebody supposed to do if they have a buggy full of shopping and a sleeping child? They obviously cannot fold it up, are you suggesting they should be chucked off the bus or train?

Put the shopping with other luggage - so many people fail to make use of the racks and prefer to stow their stuff on seats or table.
Take the child from the buggy (fold it and stow it with other luggage).
Put the child on your lap (unless you have paid for their ticket).
It is amazing what youngsters can sleep through

The alternative is to be selfish and to deny the space from those classes of traveller for which was intended.

 

[Antman]

Put the shopping with other luggage - so many people fail to make use of the racks and prefer to stow their stuff on seats or table.
Take the child from the buggy (fold it and stow it with other luggage).
Put the child on your lap (unless you have paid for their ticket).
It is amazing what youngsters can sleep through

The alternative is to be selfish and to deny the space from those classes of traveller for which was intended.

Whether it is selfish or not is beside the point, somebody may not be able to remove a heavy load of shopping or indeed a sleeping child.

In a nutshell either unfolded buggies are allowed on board or they are not, if they are then the person is allowed to continue their journey to its conclusion with the infolded buggy.

 

[Antman]

Erm do not stand in wheelchair spaces, its that simple.

And when the train is full to bursting?:roll:

 

[Parallel]

Err, hang on a minute. What is somebody supposed to do if they have a buggy full of shopping and a sleeping child? They obviously cannot fold it up, are you suggesting they should be chucked off the bus or train?

I don't know about other TOCs but at some of FGW stations, there are automated announcements telling customers that they need to fold up their pushchairs when boarding.

I think staff at platforms usually do a good job and try their best to assist in anyway they can. Disabled people have just as much right to travel as anyone else and being refused is unfair, but there again making people leave a rammed service is also not fair. For example on class 158s when around the doors and the aisles are so full that a wheelchair user would have no hope in hell on getting on. Sometimes crush loaded trains are actually such a hazard in the first place, I guess it is down to their own choice if they want to board or not. In some bad cases I think a taxi or alternative transport should be arranged, at least to a nearby station where the trains are usually less busy.

 

[TUC]

Erm do not stand in wheelchair spaces, its that simple.

And when the train is full to bursting?:roll:

Just accept that it is a bonus when vacant bat that you will have to move if a wheelchair user gets on.

 

[talltim]

Take the child from the buggy (fold it and stow it with other luggage).

My kids don't fold very well
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just accept that it is a bonus when vacant but that you will have to move if a wheelchair user gets on.

Agree with that.

 

[island]

I thought that Disability Discrimination/Equality meant preferential treatment had to be given to those "less equal than others", so people standing in the wheelchair area could be kicked off.

Or I've listened to Daily Mail readers too much.

The Disability Discrimination Act has been repealed, although the Equality Act contains many of the same provisions.

The Equality Act requires, as the name suggests, equality, and reasonable provisions to be made for disabled people (and others).

 

[cjp]

Whether it is selfish or not is beside the point, somebody may not be able to remove a heavy load of shopping or indeed a sleeping child.

Hmm so by your logic the child is doomed to remain in the buggy for the rest of their life unless someone else helps it out - I think not.

And not being selfish is a basis of civilized behaviour.

But hey lets just agree to differ:)

 

[edwin_m]

It's actually pretty difficult to remove a baby/child from a buggy, and fold the buggy while holding the child (as there wouldn't be any empty seats to park the child on temporarily). Preferably without waking it up and staring it yowling.

 

[Antman]

It's actually pretty difficult to remove a baby/child from a buggy, and fold the buggy while holding the child (as there wouldn't be any empty seats to park the child on temporarily). Preferably without waking it up and staring it yowling.

Exactly my point, so we either allow unfolded buggies on buses and trains and accept the current situation or we ban them and risk the wrath of parents.

The bottom line is that this whole DDA legislation was devised by people who haven't got a clue about the practical issues involved.

 

[DeeGee]

It's actually pretty difficult to remove a baby/child from a buggy, and fold the buggy while holding the child (as there wouldn't be any empty seats to park the child on temporarily). Preferably without waking it up and staring it yowling.

When my son was pushchair-bound, his Granny used to choose to walk the 4 miles home from the swimming pool rather than risk the half-hourly bus if my boy fell asleep in the pushchair.

My wife and I got a busy-time number 11 London bus with him last year, and thankfully managed to negotiate two seats together as he'd fallen asleep while we were waiting. He's a big lad and required two laps while sleeping.

 

[Deerfold]

The bottom line is that this whole DDA legislation was devised by people who haven't got a clue about the practical issues involved.

So what's the answer that works for everyone?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The bottom line is that this whole DDA legislation was devised by people who haven't got a clue about the practical issues involved.

Which "practical issues" are these?

These people who claim that folding a buggy is "too difficult" managed to do it perfectly easily as little as ten years ago, when most bus services were operated by step-entrance vehicles and most disabled people had to take taxis everywhere. The buggy I used, a Quinny Zapp, could be folded one handed. I also used a fixed pram that couldn't be folded but was always happy to get off if a wheelchair user wanted to get on; that was the risk I took using it.

DDA legislation- now incorporated in the Equality Act- was written with input from all stakeholders.

The real requirements of the Equality Act are straightforward- you should be able to get on a train, and use the lavatory (if one is provided), if you are a wheelchair user, subject to the "reasonable adjustments" restriction. It may be many things, but rocket science it is not.

Nobody would really suggest people in the wheelchair space should be thrown off a crush loaded train. But people who refuse to move out of the wheelchair space when there is room on the train, or people who barge past people in wheelchairs in the scramble to get on a train, or people who dump their bags in the wheelchair space, should be dealt with appropriately. And that includes people who couldn't possibly wake dear little Tarquin up from his nap.

Having both a young child and a wheelchair-bound relative, I see both sides of the argument. And it is clear that the wheelchair user should take priority over the able-bodied in terms of boarding a train. That doesn't mean chuck people on the train off, but I don't see many trains which are genuinely crush loaded as opposed to "people standing in a wheelchair area or vestibule because it's closer to the door".

 

[island]

Buggies haven't half grown in size over the last 10 years.

 

[Taunton]

Nobody would really suggest people in the wheelchair space should be thrown off a crush loaded train.

This is EXACTLY what the rules on London buses are now, and to save the driver getting involved there are now pre-recorded announcements for them to play, that if a wheelchair passenger gets on and the allocated space is taken up with babies in pushchairs (typically when all the seats are taken as well) then they must get off and wait for the next bus.

Oh, and mum then has to pay again of course.

So I don't see why one person, wheelchair user who can't walk much, is somehow of greater priority than another person, little Miss Taunton, who cannot walk at all.

Folding prams are one thing. Folding it up while taking the baby out in a full vehicle and then holding on while it lurches round corners is quite another. Incidentally, I understand most wheelchairs are folding as well. Why aren't their users told to fold them up and stand swinging round a pole .....?

 

[Deerfold]

This is EXACTLY what the rules on London buses are now, and to save the driver getting involved there are now pre-recorded announcements for them to play, that if a wheelchair passenger gets on and the allocated space is taken up with babies in pushchairs (typically when all the seats are taken as well) then they must get off and wait for the next bus.

Oh, and mum then has to pay again of course.

However the driver has no power to actually remove anyone.

The prerecorded announcements do not suggest anyone leaves the bus, simply that they move out of the wheelchair space.

The driver can print a transfer ticket for the passenger to use on the next bus.

 

[duncanp]

I don't think there is a rule on London Buses which states that buggy users must get off if they are occupying the wheelchair space when a wheelchair user boards.

The official statement from Tfl is that "you might be asked to fold your buggy or move it to another part of the bus"

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/transportaccessibility/1171.aspx

Can you imagine what would happen if a young mother with a buggy was forced to leave the bus at an isolated stop, at night when it was pouring with rain and when the next bus was not for 20 minutes?

A year or so ago, Lothian Buses in Edinburgh introduced a rule that only lightweight buggies were allowed on buses, and banned large oversized buggies (the ones that have the preposterous name of "travel systems" in the shops). This was done "so that the space could be made available to a wheelchair user if required".

Personally I think that was the right thing to do, but you should have heard the outcry from Mums groups and politicians on the city council wanting to jump on a populist bandwagon, and eventually Lothian Buses backed down.

In practice, there is not a lot that any bus operator can do, except ask the buggy user (or person with luggage or a shopping trolley for that matter) to move. But on a crowded bus, there may simply not be "another part of the bus" where it is possible to move to.

I think that all bus users have to be realistic and accept that their may be times when it is simply not possible for them to get on a particular service, and that they should then have to wait for the next one. Nobody likes doing this, of course, and if a wheelchair user is regularly unable to board a bus, or has to miss several buses in a row, then this needs to be looked at in more depth by the bus company and the local authorities

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is EXACTLY what the rules on London buses are now, and to save the driver getting involved there are now pre-recorded announcements for them to play, that if a wheelchair passenger gets on and the allocated space is taken up with babies in pushchairs (typically when all the seats are taken as well) then they must get off and wait for the next bus.

Oh, and mum then has to pay again of course.

So I don't see why one person, wheelchair user who can't walk much, is somehow of greater priority than another person, little Miss Taunton, who cannot walk at all.

The rules are the buggy must be folded, and that only folding pushchairs may be conveyed. If someone is forced to leave the bus (rather than chooses to do so rather than face the horror of folding a pushchair) then the driver can issue a Transfer Ticket, just as when a bus terminates short of its destination. In reality, where a bus is so full that no passengers can board at all, the wheelchair user will be left at the side of the road along with the able bodied passengers who couldn't get on either.

This is right and proper. Whilst the baby cannot walk because it is a baby, the parent of that baby is fully capable of folding a pushchair. Young babies are usually in a carry-cot style device which unclips from the top of the pushchair and older babies and toddlers are perfectly able to stand or sit unaided long enough to allow the pushchair to be folded. I don't see that many pushchairs with newborns in, and plenty with toddlers in. Funny that.

I've managed to fold a pushchair- carrying the pushchair in one hand, the baby in the other and the nappy bag on my shoulder- in order to travel on the Glasgow Subway, it is perfectly easy to do. If your buggy is a sensible size, that is, rather than one of these rubber-tyred off-roaders.

As always, this argument boils down to disabled people being seen as an inconvenience. "Why should I have to spend thirty seconds folding my pushchair because the guy with no legs wants to get on? It's so UNFAIR!" It's typical of the selfishness in this country.

 

[fowler9]

I think at the end of the day someone with a buggy will find it easier to either fold the buggy or make alternative arrangements than someone in a wheelchair will be able to. I would hope that a bus driver wouldn't pitch off a parent in the rain late at night in the middle of no where but that everyone involved could reach some kind of compromise.

 

[WSW]

The bottom line is that this whole DDA legislation was devised by people who haven't got a clue about the practical issues involved.

Maybe.And to some extent I agree with your comment. So what exactly do you suggest is done to ensure anyone can get on a bus or train, regardless of ability or disability? What would be your solution?

Remember the area required by a wheelchair user is fixed by the size of the wheelchair and turning requirements, nothing can change that.

Likewise, the area required by an able-bodied person is similarly fixed.

But the able-bodied person is far more likely to be able to move elsewhere, whereas the wheelchair simply cannot.

Without an element of priority for that space, we may as well not bother and put two ordinary seats back in there and just say "stuff you, wheelchair-user, this bus/train is not for the likes of you." Or like the present government seem to expect "go and get cured".

So, I ask, what exactly do you suggest is done to ensure anyone can get on a bus or train, regardless of ability or disability? What would be your solution?

Steve
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not tho' is it? If there is no wheelchair user needing it, why let the space go to waste?

On that logic, if there are spare seats anywhere on the lower deck and more than one wheelchair user wants to get on the bus, then those seats should be folded up so the new passengers can join the bus. If later, a load of able-bodied people want to join, well, tough. But some of us don't agree with that as it would inconvenience able-bodied people, whilst some of us seem to think it's OK to inconvenience a wheelchair-user.

Consider another way of looking at this: the normal seating on buses and trains is not suitable, and thus not available for wheelchair-users, so it can be seen as "reserved" for able-bodied passengers. So when that seating is full, no more able-bodied people can join the vehicle. Likewise, the wheelchair-space is "reserved" for wheelchairs, and no-one else and when that space is full of wheelchairs, then no more wheelchairs can join. Buggies (if not used for disabled children) should be dealt with as luggage and stowed in the luggage areas, end of.

Steve

 

[90019]

IA year or so ago, Lothian Buses in Edinburgh introduced a rule that only lightweight buggies were allowed on buses, and banned large oversized buggies (the ones that have the preposterous name of "travel systems" in the shops). This was done "so that the space could be made available to a wheelchair user if required".

Personally I think that was the right thing to do, but you should have heard the outcry from Mums groups and politicians on the city council wanting to jump on a populist bandwagon, and eventually Lothian Buses backed down.

Large buggies had been banned for quite a while before that, but most drivers didn't enforce it.
It was decided last year to change the rules to allow all buggies on, but they must be in either the wheelchair or buggy space (if the bus has one), though if they're in use, any more buggies must be folded.

 

[67018]

Buggies haven't half grown in size over the last 10 years.

This is an extremely good point. One of the reasons they have grown is, of course, that most of the time you can now get one on a bus without having to fold it - so there is less incentive to buy a compact, easily foldable one.

It's maybe a bit harsh to criticise the drafters of the original legislation for not predicting this unintended consequence