Wheelchair user unable to board Azuma in reverse configuration at Kings Cross

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think one could bring a discrimination case because of the way the law is constructed.
The construction or choice of Rail vehicles is specifically exempted from the duty to not discriminate or not make reasonable adjustments.
As long as the vehicles are either NTSN-PRM compliant or have relevant derogations, that's that.

Thanks. The law is an ass then

 

[kingqueen]

Thanks. The law is an ass then

Agree - and its enforcement mechanisms.
I think there may be a possibly of getting the Office of Rail and Road to take action under TFW's Accessible Travel Policy. Potentially.

 

[Energy]

The senior manager told me (in the video) that the train manager had been on the phone to colleagues before he arrived and that the decision to not allow repositioning was made as a result. So I suspect the decision was not made by her.

It's more concerning (if not surprising) if the decision was made by control. Its easier for them to stick you on the next train but its hardly good service to delay a passenger 30 mins for the sake of convenience. If the ticket office printed the wrong ticket they'd print the correct one, they wouldn't tell the passenger to catch that train.

It would have been 20 minutes to the first stop (Stevenage).
It is an interesting point. Probably I would have accepted.
Given that there was plenty of time before booked departure and the draw forward procedure only took a couple of minutes, I think drawing forward would be preferable, including for safety in not having me block an exit. But this alternative would also have worked, if less preferable.

I think this is an important point that the vast majority of disabled people don't want to be difficult, if a solution (like being in the vestibule next to the disabled toilet for 20 mins) is presented then many would accept, but delaying by 30 mins isn't a great solution.

I presume a disabled person who books a standard class ticket will be accommodated in first at no extra cost if their train doesn't happen to have a wheelchair space in standard?

Ideally yes there should be more spaces, perhaps even two spaces together for multiple wheelchair users travelling together

Yes, they aren't upgraded but are put in the first-class area. First class (and standard on a 9-car) has 2 wheelchair spaces separated by the aisle.

 

[3RDGEN]

Yes, they aren't upgraded but are put in the first-class area. First class (and standard on a 9-car) has 2 wheelchair spaces separated by the aisle.

The LNER Assisted Travel web page implies an upgrade to First Class if no Std wheelchair spaces, so book Std on a 5 car diagram and get a free upgrade?

"https://www.lner.co.uk/the-east-coast-experience/travel-tips/assisted-travel/#WheelchairspacesFAQs"

"What happens if my train has no Standard wheelchair spaces? - Not a problem! We will upgrade you to First Class if there are no Standard wheelchair spaces available. Our Assisted Travel team will arrange this upgrade for you and any assistance you require on to the train.

What about if my train has no standard class wheelchair spaces remaining? - In this instance, your wheelchair space and any companion seats reservation will be in first class with no charge! You’ll be able to enjoy all of the benefits of First Class travel during your journey."

The lack of wheelchair spaces in Std on a five car does mean eight extra seats in that coach compared to a nine car set so is probably another reason for the wheelchair spaces being in 1st only. TPE Mk5 sets only have 1st class wheelchair provision too.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, they aren't upgraded but are put in the first-class area.

Having been accommodated in the first class area of the train, they are not treated any differently to other passengers in that area.

 

[800001]

It's more concerning (if not surprising) if the decision was made by control. Its easier for them to stick you on the next train but its hardly good service to delay a passenger 30 mins for the sake of convenience. If the ticket office printed the wrong ticket they'd print the correct one, they wouldn't tell the passenger to catch that train.

I think this is an important point that the vast majority of disabled people don't want to be difficult, if a solution (like being in the vestibule next to the disabled toilet for 20 mins) is presented then many would accept, but delaying by 30 mins isn't a great solution.

Yes, they aren't upgraded but are put in the first-class area. First class (and standard on a 9-car) has 2 wheelchair spaces separated by the aisle.

LNER Control would not and did not make the call not to move that train, trains get moved a short distance all the time in platforms for various reason.

 

[kingqueen]

I was in a meeting with LNER management today, about other things. During the meeting said manager got the report through from the Train Manager. He didn't have the opportunity to read it there and then, but he will read and digest it and get back to me.
Safe to say that management right up to the top are somewhat aghast at the situation and the handling of it. Without wishing to speak too much out of turn.
MD David Horne said on Twitter at https://twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1725813620594860160?t=DTQ3X9mJYtLodZiWaoz0Rg
"We will endeavour to ensure it will NOT happen." (in the future.)

 

[hawthorn]

Why should wheelchair users have to accept a lower quality journey experience? Why shouldn't they advocate for themselves? The idea that a wheelchair user should just accept a delay and not kick up a fuss is part of the problem and is a pretty poor attitude. If this is happening to Doug, who is well informed on legal principles and company policies in this area, and is a strong and vocal advocate, then how many times is it happening unseen and unheard to others?

Agreed. He booked the wheelchair space and did everything he needed to. There is a really uncomfortable undertone in any suggestion that he should just put up with it. "Shut up and consider yourself lucky you are even allowed on the next one" etc etc.....

 

[Fisherman80]

I've seen a few of Dougs videos and most are very thought provoking.
I have watched the video at Kings Cross and couldn't believe what I was seeing when they had to move the train so he could get on.
I'm not a wheelchair user but I always try to put myself in the position of relying on a wheelchair and public transport in this country really does leave a lot to be desired when wheelchair users or elderly people try to use it.
Out of a 5 coach train I find it absolutely staggering that only 1 door with disabled toilet access is available.
I would be very interested to know the difference in accessibility between an 8xx class and the 745/755s.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Wow the way this guy approaches the problem.. threatening to call the police. Incredible.

Mistakes happen but this is just making disabled people look really bad.

Mistakes happen, yes, but on the railways they happen far too often. It stops being “a mistake” and starts being a systemic failure.

I don’t think people can understand how bad it is unless they are a wheelchair user or, at the very least, travel regularly with a wheelchair user.

I used to be a trustee of a charity and my fellow trustee was a wheelchair user. We travelled together a lot for business, usually on LNER, TPE, and XC.

These sorts of things happen all the time- station staff forgetting to be there to assist with boarding or disembarking, guards arguing that “the ramp doesn’t work” or “I can’t deploy the ramp because I’ve got a bad back”, wheelchair spaces being full of luggage and staff refusing to make people move it. Being told to get the next train, agreeing, then being told you have to wait even longer because someone else has booked the wheelchair space already.

The truth is that the first few times it happens you will smile sweetly and accept it, mistakes happen. But eventually you’ll come to the conclusion that, unless you get shirty, the railway will just treat you like a mug.

tl;dr the robust reaction from wheelchair users is because it happens all the sodding time.

 

[Falcon1200]

I have watched the video at Kings Cross and couldn't believe what I was seeing when they had to move the train so he could get on.

What occurred was an unusual combination of circumstances; A set wrong turned, 5-cars so only one disabled area, in a platform where the ramp was unable to be properly deployed. Where it went wrong was the reluctance of staff to deal with the issue, no doubt LNER management will (rightly) be looking at this.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course, if the bloody trains were better designed from an accessibility and wheelchair space point of view then this wouldn't be an issue in the first place. To have the only wheelchair space accessible by just one set of doors seems a bit of a design failure to say the least.

 

[hwl]

Of course, if the bloody trains were better designed from an accessibility and wheelchair space point of view then this wouldn't be an issue in the first place. To have the only wheelchair space accessible by just one set of doors seems a bit of a design failure to say the least.

Wheelchair spaces (x2).The alternative design choices involve having a lot fewer seats which could also be viewed as design failure.

Other 80x operators have a different 5car stopping position on this platform to mitigate the problem occurring.

 

[northernbelle]

Wheelchair spaces (x2).The alternative design choices involve having a lot fewer seats which could also be viewed as design failure.

Other 80x operators have a different 5car stopping position on this platform to mitigate the problem occurring.

Indeed. And this issue isn't limited to 80x - there are many, many locations where wheelchair ramps can't be deployed to trains due to platform width and design of rolling stock.

Other than rebuilding platforms or increasing the numbers of wheelchair spaces, the solution is having a pragmatic method of work that allows the train to be moved to permit access.

 

[ModernRailways]

Wheelchair spaces (x2).The alternative design choices involve having a lot fewer seats which could also be viewed as design failure.

It's almost as if these 5 car trains are inadequate and poorly designed. These sets have a full size kitchen, in that space you could fit more seats and additional wheelchair spaces. 2 spaces for people who use a wheelchair on a train travelling from London to Harrogate (in this case), but could be travelling as far as Edinburgh in rare circumstances is totally ridiculous and just shows the lack of provision on the railway for people who do require use of such a space.

 

[800001]

It's almost as if these 5 car trains are inadequate and poorly designed. These sets have a full size kitchen, in that space you could fit more seats and additional wheelchair spaces. 2 spaces for people who use a wheelchair on a train travelling from London to Harrogate (in this case), but could be travelling as far as Edinburgh in rare circumstances is totally ridiculous and just shows the lack of provision on the railway for people who do require use of such a space.

When they run to Edinburgh they have the same number of wheelchair spaces as a 9 car set (all be it in 1st class for both).

The kitchen is also slightly smaller than on a 9 car set, and in that space is an extra 3 seats (with no window).

 

[cslusarc]

I really wonder why there are only 2 wheelchair spaces on a 5-car Azuma? Should the railway be prepared to accommodate large groups of wheelchair users?

 

[800001]

I really wonder why there are only 2 wheelchair spaces on a 5-car Azuma? Should the railway be prepared to accommodate large groups of wheelchair users?

Dft - quantity of seats.

 

[Falcon1200]

I really wonder why there are only 2 wheelchair spaces on a 5-car Azuma? Should the railway be prepared to accommodate large groups of wheelchair users?

OTOH, on how many occasions do more than 2 wheelchair users want to use the same train; And if there were more than 2 spaces, what use could they be put when, as would seem likely, not every wheelchair space was actually needed?

 

[ComUtoR]

And if there were more than 2 spaces, what use could they be put when, as would seem likely, not every wheelchair space was actually needed?

Ours have fold down chairs / bike space.

 

[Falcon1200]

Ours have fold down chairs / bike space.

What train type are those please?

Scotrail's Class 380 sets, for example, have fold down seats at the bike spaces, but in no way are they suitable for a journey of any length (even if some choose to sit there despite other seats being available....)

 

[45076]

I watched the video this morning and it highlights something of this modern world be that a training issue of staff or just a millennial thing.

I have seen in the past trains moved in stations to accommodate all sorts of requests, I'm pretty sure that the rule book gives explicit instructions on what should or shouldn't be done.

All this needed was the train manager to be sensible about it and the whole situation would have been sorted very quickly and without fuss. Good on Doug for standing by his principles.

 

[Northerngirl]

On the face of it very poor. Moving a train a few feet along a platform is a lot more of a faff than might be imagined, but hardly insurmountable (where I am it would involve a driver to call signaller and move the train, TM to close doors and make appropriate PA announcements, and platform staff to supervise the move from outside the driver’s cab and ideally someone at the buffer stops end of the platform to prevent people throwing themselves at the train as it unexpectedly starts moving).

I can't help but see this as ridiculously overcomplicated, non of that is needed to regularly dispatch a train, wheres the additional danger here, and As long as its not passing a signal it seems pointless to contact a signaler

 

[LowLevel]

I can't help but see this as ridiculously overcomplicated, non of that is needed to regularly dispatch a train, wheres the additional danger here, and As long as its not passing a signal it seems pointless to contact a signaler

So when you move the train, what happens if the signaller also routes a train into the platform permissively? We don't like trains driving at each other. It might also mean 2 trains won't fit where they do in normal circumstances. People also panic when trains move before time. The driver also can't see where to stop from the cab.

 

[kingqueen]

I can't help but see this as ridiculously overcomplicated, non of that is needed to regularly dispatch a train, wheres the additional danger here, and As long as its not passing a signal it seems pointless to contact a signaler

I totally get that it needs permission off the signaller to move towards the red signal, a clear understanding between all involved, the guard to do six bells, platform staff to prevent people running towards the train and to mark the position the driver should go to etc. It takes a lot of people and safety critical knowledge. Happily those people were present and capable, so it could happen. Just a shame it didn't happen 20 minutes earlier than it did!!!

The 1527 from KGX to Middlesborough today is a wrong-way-round 5-car Azuma leaving from Platform 5.
I alerted LNER about the potential for resultant wheelchair space inaccessibility (I'm not traveling on it), but impressively a manager at King's Cross noted it and is in touch with control and the signaler to get it rerouted.

Addendum:

Respect to an LNER manager for noticing and getting it rerouted to platform 3.
It shouldn't take the (impressive) initiative of a manager, though. Should be designed out.

 

[357]

I can't help but see this as ridiculously overcomplicated, non of that is needed to regularly dispatch a train, wheres the additional danger here, and As long as its not passing a signal it seems pointless to contact a signaler

Are you a driver or operational staff?

All I can say is yes, the procedure is complicated, but, if there was an easier way to do it safely then that would be the standard way. Others have detailed the main reason for this but there are a couple of other reasons that would only apply to certain conditions but mean it's better to have a blanket rule that you call the signaller.

Would your question have been better worded something like "Could someone please explain why this procedure is so complicated instead of just moving up the platform? I don't even understand why the signaller needs to be contacted if you aren't passing a red signal"? You come across very condescending the way I read your post.

I totally get that it needs permission off the signaller to move towards the red signal, a clear understanding between all involved, the guard to do six bells, platform staff to prevent people running towards the train and to mark the position the driver should go to etc. It takes a lot of people and safety critical knowledge. Happily those people were present and capable, so it could happen. Just a shame it didn't happen 20 minutes earlier than it did!!!

The 1527 from KGX to Middlesborough today is a wrong-way-round 5-car Azuma leaving from Platform 5.
I alerted LNER about the potential for resultant wheelchair space inaccessibility (I'm not traveling on it), but impressively a manager at King's Cross noted it and is in touch with control and the signaler to get it rerouted.

Addendum:

Respect to an LNER manager for noticing and getting it rerouted to platform 3.
It shouldn't take the (impressive) initiative of a manager, though. Should be designed out.

Your posts have not only highlighted a serious issue but your replies have shown that you do understand the operational side of the railway and that procedures we have are both for safety and in place for a reason.

I'll say myself though that as someone who's been in an operational position for almost 14 years, I cringed and found it embarrassing that there was either a lack of knowledge or lack of desire to carry out a procedure that isn't exactly rocket science until a manager ended up doing it for the member of staff concerned.

I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know everything, there are many procedures that we learn in training and we joke "you'll never have to do that" or "you'll be having a very bad day if you need to do any of this". I've delayed my train before when asked to do certain things because I've been checking the rule book and my "idiots guide to train driving" that I keep in my bag. If the guard wasn't sure then she should have checked the rulebook or company documents, not just refused.

However excellent news about the set today being spotted. Glad to see something's clearly been taken on board about it. A shame that it took an incident such as yours and a passenger who knew their rights and didn't back down.

 

[danbarjon]

The 1527 from KGX to Middlesborough today is a wrong-way-round 5-car Azuma leaving from Platform 5.
I alerted LNER about the potential for resultant wheelchair space inaccessibility (I'm not traveling on it), but impressively a manager at King's Cross noted it and is in touch with control and the signaler to get it rerouted.

Respect to an LNER manager for noticing and getting it rerouted to platform 3.
It shouldn't take the (impressive) initiative of a manager, though. Should be designed out.

Surely they should put a stop on 5 cars being allowed on the platforms that could possibly block the wheelchair space entrance or make a new stop board for them...

 

[800001]

Surely they should put a stop on 5 cars being allowed on the platforms that could possibly block the wheelchair space entrance or make a new stop board for them...

All because every now and again a set ends up in reverse?
99% of time these 5 cars end up in reverse is due to being diverted due to infrastructure issues between Doncaster and Leeds.
Proper management when a set is occasionally in reverse is what is needed, and that is the station team liasing with the signaller to replatform a set in reverse.
The station team get that information from LNER control at 4am so there is plenty of time to plan.

 

[Northern_guard]

NVM

 

[kingqueen]

I understand the frustration and it should never be an issue, but some of the language the wheelchair user uses is pretty poor. Seen it plenty of times from him before as well.

Really.
About the only criticism I've had is that I said it would be a "security incident" - phraseology with a specific meaning I wouldn't use in a similar situation again.
Other than that, I struggle to see any "pretty poor" language on this video or any other.
I'm never abusive to railway staff.