When carriage lights fail at night…

[Western 52]

Some time ago, we were boarding a two-car class 150 for our journey home from work. It was dark outside, and the lights in the leading car were out. The well-lit rear car was fairly full, and passengers were now boarding the front car, not really worried about the lack of lights as most had lights from their phones. The guard made an apology announcement for the lighting problem, informing passengers that they may want to move to the rear car, if they wanted to.

Just before departure, there was a further announcement, informing us that we now had to move to the other car as the front car was being closed to passengers.

So, what are the rules in this situation? Presumably there’s a safety issue with failed lights, particularly around external doorways, but would such vehicles always be closed off to passengers? What would the situation be if there was insufficient room in other vehicles, or if the train was only a single car with no alternative accommodation?

 

[MrS99]

Exactly as you mentioned... safety issues mean passengers must be transferred to a vehicle which is lit, only under cover of darkness. If this happens during daylight hours, no real issue. Have to try and accommodate passengers as far as possible in only available vehicle. Conductor would have to explain this to passengers trying to board at stations. On newer units you have the option of opening a local door and the using ASDO override to open the other doors in that particular vehicle.

 

[leedslad82]

I had this happen as a passenger on an east coast service. They merged 2 first class carriages together and then moved us all into the vacated one

 

[py_megapixel]

Conductor would have to explain this to passengers trying to board at stations. On newer units you have the option of opening a local door and the using ASDO override to open the other doors in that particular vehicle.

Surely the conductor could just manually isolate and lock all doors to the affected car?

 

[MrS99]

Surely the conductor could just manually isolate and lock all doors to the affected car?

Then comes another safety issue, which is that a unit can not run with all the doors in a particular vehicle locked as there is no emergency exit, even though passengers should not be in there due to the lack of lighting. Something you would have to discuss with control and decide how best to proceed together.

 

[choochoochoo]

Then comes another safety issue, which is that a unit can not run with all the doors in a particular vehicle locked as there is no emergency exit, even though passengers should not be in there due to the lack of lighting. Something you would have to discuss with control and decide how best to proceed together.

I thought door regulations would mean that with two consecutive doors on the same side of a carriage locked out the train could not remain in service.

 

[MrS99]

I thought door regulations would mean that with two consecutive doors on the same side of a carriage locked out the train could not remain in service.

Exactly, which is why I wouldn't lock them out in the first instance. If working on traction such as 158 where doors can be operated from middle, direct passengers into single vehicle and discuss with control most appropriate place to withdraw unit from service and transfer passengers onto a new unit.

 

[NSE]

I had this happen on a 365 to Kings Cross. Broad daylight but of course a heavily tunnelled route. Had a great time in the pitch black! Personally, I’d happily sit in the dark at night. You can see out better and I just like the relaxed ambience.

Interesting it’s the opposite on planes. Lights dimmed for take off and landing so your eyes are more accustomed to the darkness should you need to evacuate.

 

[choochoochoo]

Also have to ask if the affected coach were pitch black or emergency lighting was in operation. I'd be worried about the impact of darkness on an emergency egress from the unlit carriage if it was pitch black

I had this happen on a 365 to Kings Cross. Broad daylight but of course a heavily tunnelled route. Had a great time in the pitch black! Personally, I’d happily sit in the dark at night. You can see out better and I just like the relaxed ambience.

Interesting it’s the opposite on planes. Lights dimmed for take off and landing so your eyes are more accustomed to the darkness should you need to evacuate.

I was on a 717 that left the depot with its saloon lights off. It was daytime but when it got to the Nrthern City Line section it became very dark all of sudden !!

 

[Undiscovered]

If the emergency lighting is working, then the unit can tootle around all day, once fitters have given it the once over.
Guard will need to patrol that carriage a bit more frequently to keep an eye on things, but otherwise it's fine.

 

[The exile]

Exactly as you mentioned... safety issues mean passengers must be transferred to a vehicle which is lit, only under cover of darkness. If this happens during daylight hours, no real issue.

Remember years ago a loco-hauled relief was booked to run between Bristol and Shrewsbury during flower show week - with non-passenger loco. Bashers at Bristol all furious as train had to run ECS to Newport as there were no lights. The Severn Tunnel was obviously the clincher as it ran (still "dark") up the North and West - pulling out of Newport just as the next train from Bristol was arriving.
Much better was the journey from Bristol to Edinburgh on the "overnight" in the back coach (a BSO with the brake half between the passenger saloon and the rest of the train) - lights off and the carriage to myself all the way. Mind you, I'd turned them off myself!

 

[ABB125]

I was on a railtour a few years ago where, for whatever reason the lights in the coach I was in went off. Late in the evening in February! I don't think anyone particularly minded. They were still off when I alighted; the train had over two hours to go until it reached its final drop off point.

 

[jamesst]

If the emergency lighting is working, then the unit can tootle around all day, once fitters have given it the once over.
Guard will need to patrol that carriage a bit more frequently to keep an eye on things, but otherwise it's fine.

Not at my toc, it's straight out of service!

 

[Bow Fell]

Not at my toc, it's straight out of service!

That’s usually because the MA has gone!

I’ve had units with some lights out before and kept them in service, really depends how bad it is and how many.

If it’s a quite a few but not all, I’d be concerned the MA has dropped a phase and on its way out.

 

[MotCO]

Not at my toc, it's straight out of service!

And if it was the last train of the night?

 

[FGW_DID]

And if it was the last train of the night?

It gets cancelled, you can’t pick and choose depending on the time of day! If the fault comes under a safety issue it doesn’t really matter.

 

[XAM2175]

Interesting it’s the opposite on planes. Lights dimmed for take off and landing so your eyes are more accustomed to the darkness should you need to evacuate.

The key difference obviously being that on the plane all the passengers are confined to their seats

 

[Brissle Girl]

I recall in the 80s travelling a long distance in the dark on a Mk2 which involved a stop at Basingstoke (so either a Midlands to Poole service or Waterloo to Exeter?). I really enjoyed the experience, as you could see the various town and country lights much more clearly than one normally would from inside a lit carriage, and it felt a much more relaxing experience. Appreciate not everyone would enjoy it though and that safety these days is considered much more carefully than in the past.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I recall in the 80s travelling a long distance in the dark on a Mk2 which involved a stop at Basingstoke (so either a Midlands to Poole service or Waterloo to Exeter?). I really enjoyed the experience, as you could see the various town and country lights much more clearly than one normally would from inside a lit carriage, and it felt a much more relaxing experience.

Agreed - and in the days before occupation of carriages with no lights was banned, I would usually deliberately seek out and sit in such carriages for exactly those reasons.

 

[Dave W]

I may have recalled this here before but during the winter of 2011/12 on a day of heavy snowfall I got a 170 (itself pretty unusual then) from Snow Hill back to Stourbridge which had no saloon lights.

I expected it to be cancelled but I think it was a case of “if it moves, put people on it”. It was great!

 

[M60lad]

Speaking of interior lights on trains do any types of train have light sensors on them/fitted that can sense how dark/light it is and switch the lights on/off accordingly? I know Manchester's Metrolink have them fitted as they usually trundle around during the day (dependent on driver) with the lights off but as tram approaches a tunnel the lights automatically come on and then after a while of coming out of the tunnel they automatically switch off.

 

[Andy Pacer]

That’s usually because the MA has gone!

I’ve had units with some lights out before and kept them in service, really depends how bad it is and how many.

If it’s a quite a few but not all, I’d be concerned the MA has dropped a phase and on its way out.

What does "MA" refer to please?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Have the rules changed or were Wrexham & Shropshire railway (the Open Access Operator) a bunch of cowboys?
I travelled on a "Diverted" service from Smethwick Galton Bridge (Low Level) via Birmingham New St (Non Stopping) to London Maylebone with no lights on a MK3 carriage with a failed battery, no heat or lights. This would have been 2009 or 2010 so not a long time ago in railway terms. The guard/hosts made their apologies used a bit charm with a few 1st class nibbles but they certainly didn't vacate us from the carriage as the whole train was rather busy.

 

[Welshman]

Agreed - and in the days before occupation of carriages with no lights was banned, I would usually deliberately seek out and sit in such carriages for exactly those reasons.

Me too!
I still remember a fascinating trip back to university after the Christmas - New Year vacation of 1967-68 in a [fortunately] heated, but unlit compartment, speeding through the frozen snow-encrusted Lincolnshire Fens at night - Deltic-hauled. Magic!

 

[Class800]

I'm 36 and have been in unlit carriages on a number of occasions - I don't think it's that dangerous, most people have phones with a torch

Unlit toilet compartments, well that is a bit scary - and seems permitted even if unlit carriages aren't always

 

[LowLevel]

With us it depends on how busy the train is. If the passengers can be accommodated elsewhere the vehicle is taken out of use. If not the guard or other competent person has to attend the vehicle with a torch.

In the daytime it's a route risk assessment based on things like the number of tunnels.

 

[Western 52]

Do trains have any form of emergency lighting which should come on if the main lights fail? I would have thought this would be part of the spec for new trains these days. I have seen some cars with just a few lights on when the engine is off, but usually all lights come on when the engine is started.

 

[mervyn72]

Going back long time to when FGW ran some loco hauled services using class 57 I think, I boarded at Bristol going to Cardiff and the lights were out in one of the mk 2 coaches. Rather than cancel or lock out as the train was very busy, the guard and another member of staff each had a torch and shone it down the carriage from each end whilst in the tunnels.

 

[XAM2175]

What does "MA" refer to please?

Motor alternator. Older stock used them to convert DC power from the batteries to an AC supply for lighting and the like.

Do trains have any form of emergency lighting which should come on if the main lights fail? I would have thought this would be part of the spec for new trains these days. I have seen some cars with just a few lights on when the engine is off, but usually all lights come on when the engine is started.

Newer stock should indeed have emergency lighting come on if the power supply is disconnected or otherwise fails; depending on the design it will either be a subset of the normal lighting (like you describe) or an entirely separate set of lights. Of course it won't activate in circumstances that appear 'normal', such as the lighting simply being left switched off.

I'm 36 and have been in unlit carriages on a number of occasions ...

Your profile says you're 32

I really enjoyed the experience, as you could see the various town and country lights much more clearly than one normally would from inside a lit carriage, and it felt a much more relaxing experience. Appreciate not everyone would enjoy it though and that safety these days is considered much more carefully than in the past.

Thankfully this experience is still available with official blessing in Germany and a handful of other places where compartment stock is still in frequent use (for a bit longer, anyway).

 

[D821]

I had this happen on a morning commute on a Merseyrail 507 about four years ago. The carriage was fine without the lights on as it was a sunny morning. As we got into Birkenhead North, couple of fitters from the adjacent depot hopped on and had a fiddle but couldn't get anything working. As the next part of the journey goes underground to Liverpool they cancelled the service and we were kicked off.

It was really annoying at the time, but having spent some time on here I've a better idea of the safety implications and understand it was done for safety reasons. That said, it didn't feel particularly safe having a train load of people crammed onto a narrow platform and they having to squeeze on the already busy next train.