• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

When is passenger assistance acceptable to be booked

Status
Not open for further replies.

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
And you fall for the oldest trick in the book and that's assuming there's nothing wrong with them healthwise, how do you know they're perfectly able to board without assistance?

One might have a bad back...

The key here being that if the person had an impairment which meant they need help, they should explain this when requesting the assistance, just as they do when they book assistance by phone, which requires that the person chooses which category their assistance comes under.

There cant be an assistance service which is so politically correct that it doesn't require a reason for the assistance, whether obvious (wheelchair user) or a verbal reason (such as where a disability is invisible such as mental health).

If a service was offered which offered assistance to everyone without ticking one of the categories then potentially you'd have to provide assistance to every single passenger on the network who had luggage. There's absolutely no way this could be done. That's why the categories exist and RDG, Network Rail and DFT are obviously happy that customers requesting assistance must fulfill one of the criteria on the list to be able to be guarantee assistance will be offered.


The assistance service can't be everything to everyone. It's not possible as you'd need a team of porters at every station including two platform country stations. And the franchise invitations just don't include provision for this and the DFT don't request this from the franchise bidders. Presumably introducing teams of porters at every station would require such a budget that it may affect bidders ability to pay the premiums if the staff bill suddenly plummeted without the TOC having accounted for it up until now. It may drive more bidders away from franchises altogether if the costs become so high that they're going to struggle to break even. So presumably the DFT limits the assistance service (to those who fit the categories) as another part of keeping costs under control.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
I don't object to people receiving assistance but the scheme is there to assist people with a protected characteristic.
In all the time I worked on passenger assistance, I never saw anything that said this. The scheme is there to assist people that need assistance. That is why it is called 'Passenger Assistance'.
Did the railway give the fleeing woman a free ticket or did they make money off it?
I assume that they made money off it. I don't see how it's relevant though. You could argue that her Mum has already paid a sum which would allow her daughter to receive assistance.
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
In all the time I worked on passenger assistance, I never saw anything that said this. The scheme is there to assist people that need assistance. That is why it is called 'Passenger Assistance'.

If the categories available when booking assistance aren't protected characteristics though what are they?

The categories you can book under don't include pushchairs, luggage as a standalone category, or large party travelling.

Luggage has to be booked with another category such as Elderly or Mobility Impaired or Disabled other or other non disabled, learning difficultiss. Etc etc.
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
I have seen numerous assistances booked as 'Non-Disabled, Luggage'.

But how, realistically, can the system offer this service to all? Never in this world is there enough resource to provide the service to everyone who has luggage who would take it up if it was on offer?


It seems to me on a wider note, that if the reports of current passenger assist failure levels are anywhere near to one in five, that the industry needs to sit down and decide what it really wants the passenger assistance service to be.

Does it want it to be a kind of porters type service available to all passengers who enter the Network?
Is it prepared to provide the resource required to do this? Such as teams of porters staff at all locations? Will franchise invitations reflect this and demand hundreds of new staff per franchise for these tasks? Will the franchise finances account for this and potentially lower the premiums so the TOC can break even? Does Network Rail and the DFT envisage this?


Or does the industry feel that they don't wish for any more staff resource appropriate for the service other than for natural passenger growth?
If so and the current system is understaffed to cater for all requests, and is making frequent mistakes, then it needs to be addressed whether the service should be slimlined down as a disabled assistance service rather than a passenger assist service. Presumably staffing would then be better placed to address a finer demand but would still presumably be adhering to all equality legislation. And keep the mobility Impaired and add a new category 'other impairment' to cover things which aren't disabilities but may restrict a person physically or mentally health wise.


The other option is leave things how they are. If DFT, RDG, Network Rail, government, stakeholders are happy with how things are currently and they are prepared to accept a level of error, then let things remain.
 
Last edited:

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
But how, realistically, can the system offer this service to all? Never in this world is there enough resource to provide the service to everyone who has luggage who would take it up if it was in offer?

It seems to me on a wider note, that if the reports of current passenger assist failure levels are anywhere near to one in five, that the industry needs to sit down and decide what it really wants the passenger assistance service to be.
What needs to be done is for proper censures to be enacted against organisations (TOCs, NR, Passenger Assist themselves) that fail to provide passenger assistance to the expected standards, and for them to resource the system so that it doesn't happen.
If that costs money, spend the money. If that increases fares then so be it.

Fare income last year was about £10bn. A fare increase of 0.1% would be £10m. There's a lot of passenger assistance improvements that could be made with that.
 
Last edited:

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
What needs to be done is for proper censures to be enacted against organisations (TOCs, NR, Passenger Assist themselves) that fail to provide passenger assistance to the expected standards, and for them to resource the system so that it doesn't happen.
If that costs money, spend the money. If that increases fares then so be it.

Fare income last year was about £10bn. A fare increase of 0.1% would be £10m. There's a lot of passenger assistance improvements that could be made with that.

However if they have say a team of 8 CSA/assistance staff at a station, and mistakes are made, and they either write complaints off as margin for error and pay out automatic compensation, or they fully investigate no shows, and it turns out 9 times out of 10 that staff were somewhere else as two assists clashed at same time, you can't very well discipline individual staff over that, because they are essentially over worked and end up making mistakes or can't get to someone in time.
It becomes that fault of the resource and or the process. I suspect a lot of station staff would say they're understaffed as far as looking after assists. Yet the Tocs have agreed the staffing levels on bidding for the franchise. The government would have been happy with the staffing agreed in the franchise agreements and the whole premium payment, profitability, value for money etc etc would be calculated for the whole franchise based on the agreed staffing costs.

Tocs aren't just going to recruit another 200 people so that assistance can be provided to all, including the able. The DFT didn't require them to when they bid for the franchise.

It's up to the DFT to write this into franchises and demand it if that's what the government wants. The current situation speaks like government are happy with the current system although it's accepted it has its faults.

The railways is a set of businesses after all. Who's to say they haven't calculated cost of hiring enough staff to offer a fully comprehensive assistance service with little or no errors...
Vs the cost of making current level of errors and paying compensation/refunds, and accepting liability for legal action x times per year but keeping today's staffing levels without having to mass recruit? This could be the case as nothing major has changed in the last five years other than its busier and staff have had to cope in many cases with no extra personnel.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,226
I don't mind assisting anyone. It comes with the territory.

The only problem I have is with people who pack humungous suitcases and expect us to move them around. I'm not talking about the stereotypical little old lady who is apologetic about her little case 'being very heavy' when I can chuck it about with my little finger or even a standard case of 15-25kg.

Some people will literally quite happily pack an extremely heavy bag or case and brazenly ask someone else to move it about for them and actually get offended if you refuse.

Why should I risk my back to move anyone else's belongings?

We used to have a regular assistance job. 2 blokes, one of whom would happily push the other around town and up and down hills until he arrived at the station then would require a station wheelchair and someone to push the other fella.

They used to come with 3 large cases and were both somewhere north of 20 stone.

We used to have to asset strip the whole station to free 3 staff up for 15 minutes to deal with them.

They travelled on first advances. They quite literally managed everything themselves in every way until they crossed the station threshold then dropped the lot until we picked them up.
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
However if they have say a team of 8 CSA/assistance staff at a station, and mistakes are made, and they either write complaints off as margin for error and pay out automatic compensation, or they fully investigate no shows, and it turns out 9 times out of 10 that staff were somewhere else as two assists clashed at same time, you can't very well discipline individual staff over that, because they are essentially over worked and end up making mistakes or can't get to someone in time.
It becomes that fault of the resource and or the process. I suspect a lot of station staff would say they're understaffed as far as looking after assists. Yet the Tocs have agreed the staffing levels on bidding for the franchise. The government would have been happy with the staffing agreed in the franchise agreements and the whole premium payment, profitability, value for money etc etc would be calculated for the whole franchise based on the agreed staffing costs.
Then there is an issue in the system and the process.
If supermarkets were not getting apples delivered to them 20% of the time, or if hospitals had errors in 20% of appendix operations, or Ford had 20% of Mondeos breaking down all with the same issue, or Apple had 20% of iPhones not being able to open Safari, there would be root-and-branch investigations, there would be analysis of the causes, and processes changed or developed to stop it happening.
 

TheAlbanach_

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2017
Messages
142
I don't mind assisting anyone. It comes with the territory.

The only problem I have is with people who pack humungous suitcases and expect us to move them around. I'm not talking about the stereotypical little old lady who is apologetic about her little case 'being very heavy' when I can chuck it about with my little finger or even a standard case of 15-25kg.

Some people will literally quite happily pack an extremely heavy bag or case and brazenly ask someone else to move it about for them and actually get offended if you refuse.

Why should I risk my back to move anyone else's belongings?

We used to have a regular assistance job. 2 blokes, one of whom would happily push the other around town and up and down hills until he arrived at the station then would require a station wheelchair and someone to push the other fella.

They used to come with 3 large cases and were both somewhere north of 20 stone.

We used to have to asset strip the whole station to free 3 staff up for 15 minutes to deal with them.

They travelled on first advances. They quite literally managed everything themselves in every way until they crossed the station threshold then dropped the lot until we picked them up.

Exactly this. When I worked doing it, I had this one guy bring 6 large, extremely heavy (I couldn't lift them, was a first for me) cases and two holdalls. Took three of us to get him to the train, was annoyed the guard did not charge him for his luggage.

People need to be told when booking what their limits are and that they have to be a reasonable weight for the person that will be helping them to carry, staff aren't weightlifters.
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
Then there is an issue in the system and the process.
If supermarkets were not getting apples delivered to them 20% of the time, or if hospitals had errors in 20% of appendix operations, or Ford had 20% of Mondeos breaking down all with the same issue, or Apple had 20% of iPhones not being able to open Safari, there would be root-and-branch investigations, there would be analysis of the causes, and processes changed or developed to stop it happening.
But what is there to stop it happenning if the government and the franchises have decided they have enough staff for what they want already? If it happens because it's as simple as staff can't be in two places at the same time, and all stakeholders say no more staff at present, then there's no solution. Other than slim down the demand to only those who need it due to disability and or the equality act rather than opening it to all but it struggles to be accurate.

Exactly this. When I worked doing it, I had this one guy bring 6 large, extremely heavy (I couldn't lift them, was a first for me) cases and two holdalls. Took three of us to get him to the train, was annoyed the guard did not charge him for his luggage.

People need to be told when booking what their limits are and that they have to be a reasonable weight for the person that will be helping them to carry, staff aren't weightlifters.

In theory tocs do agree limits on luggage allowance. Trouble is customers aren't aware of it and if they were many would be in breach of them and there's no way of policing it. In reality it should come down to reasonable, and common sense.

Luggage wise though this is another issue with the passenger assist system which ought to be addressed:
Anyone who classes themselves as Elderly (no DOB needed, it's opinion) is able to book full luggage assistance and a full station transfer service free of charge with any amount of luggage of any weight. And it's all on the staff to do as soon as the passenger comes through the door.

Perhaps customers booking non disability luggage assistance should select a more appropriate size or weight of luggage considering that they're giving it over to staff, and if it was them having to attempt to lift it, they may well not be able to handle it whatsoever.

However, because the current assistance service does all the manual work for the customsr at all points for all transfers, they can bring an extra large case, heavy if they wish, that they wouldn't be able to lift themselves. Or multiple large cases per one assist.
It's then down to assistance staff to lift this stuff to and from trains, on and off racks and around the stations, whether they think it's an awkward piece of luggage or not. And they risk injury, because often they are doing this all day.

UK manual handling courses tell you to hold the top and bottom opposite corners, bend knees and assess the load, which is not possible with a large heavy case. You have to use the handles to get a grip which are top and one on one side. Then lift it up or down a step .Then lift it on or off vestibule or overhead racks, perhaps with other cases in the way. The train maybe full. Then factor in the train's dwell time is 2 maybe 1 minute. And you have to get off to avoid being carried off with the train.

This seem to be one of the most likely jobs to suffer an injury or be off sick due to pain on the customer facing railway imo.

Whether it's right anyone should bring luggage they couldnt reasonably handle themselves I'm not sure. Passengers with disabilities and physical impairments you can totally understand they can't handle luggage. But it seems flawed there's the 'Elderly, Luggage' category when booking assistance, which seems to be available to anyone over 50 who sees themselves to be Elderly (my brother does).

I do doubt whether this was what was actually envisaged or intended when the passenger assist service was set up. Perhaps it was initially supposed to be aimed at those who absolutely required help to make the railway accessible or to be able to travel. Over time the bookings have got far wider and it seems now like a huge huge chunk of assists are bookings under ''Elderly, luggage assistance, assistance at all points to and from seat'. Is this really what they intended when they introduced the service?
That could cover millions of the population if it's a full porter and transfer service for anyone who books it based on they're old. And it's free, so who wouldn't want a full porters type service if they knew it was available?

There can be a fair turnover of staff because it's so strenuous and demanding and not paid as well as many of the other operational roles which may be lighter, and most staff who leave move on to other roles within the railway.

People can keep complaining and keep saying if it needs far more staff then staff it, but the reality is, it's not going to be staffed with drastically more staff than it has today. Maybe a few more every few years for natural growth inflation. But not to extent that every gran and grandad would be able to receive assistance every single time because with the ageing population and word spreading on how useful the service is, more and more people want to book it with the same amounts of budget and staff. So people don't have enough hands and bookings get missed.
 
Last edited:

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
But what is there to stop it happenning if the government and the franchises have decided they have enough staff for what they want already? If it happens because it's as simple as staff can't be in two places at the same time, and all stakeholders say no more staff at present, then there's no solution. Other than slim down the demand to only those who need it due to disability and or the equality act rather than opening it to all but it struggles to be accurate.
It's not a question of what they want but of what they need to do.
If this was customers not being able to buy tickets at a particular station on a regular basis because there were not enough staff to serve them, they would get more staff.
If this was trains not being run because there were not enough drivers, they would get more staff.
If they have more passengers needing assistance than the current number of staff can handle, then they need to get more staff.
 

vicki brown

Member
Joined
4 Jul 2018
Messages
10
It's not a question of what they want but of what they need to do.
If this was customers not being able to buy tickets at a particular station on a regular basis because there were not enough staff to serve them, they would get more staff.
If this was trains not being run because there were not enough drivers, they would get more staff.
If they have more passengers needing assistance than the current number of staff can handle, then they need to get more staff.
Agree completely! There should never be a situation where disabled passengers are left to be over carried on trains or stranded on platforms due to assistance staff being double booked. Companies and the dft need to think of the human cost rather than just the financial implications ie cost of employing more staff verses compensation paid out when the system fails.
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
Agree completely! There should never be a situation where disabled passengers are left to be over carried on trains or stranded on platforms due to assistance staff being double booked. Companies and the dft need to think of the human cost rather than just the financial implications ie cost of employing more staff verses compensation paid out when the system fails.

The DFT are insistent on half of some franchises' services going over to driver only operation. I'm not at all saying I agree with it. But this is the reality. Many stations are unstaffed and many trains which currently have or used to have staff other than the driver, may not in the future. That tells us how likely hundreds more assistance staff are. And the government are in full agreement over the reduced onboard staffing on the tocs which are lined up for it.

Having had a look at several TOC websites earlier today on their booked assistance pages, I can see that quite a few say they offer a booked assistance service to those with disabilities and the elderly. They don't seem to be suggesting the service is for anyone else. So how someone who has a broken arm would know they would qualify I'm not sure?
 
Last edited:

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Case 1 - Family of two adults, two children. Travelling Worcester Foregate Street to Liverpool via Stourbridge.

Platform 1 is the allocated platform. They are taking three suitcases and one of the children is in a pushchair. It is known that there is a height difference between the train and platform edge.

Stock is 170+153 to Galton Bridge then 350/2 to Liverpool LS

Would they be eligible for passenger assistance?

I've seen similar situations at Northwich. For those who don't know the Chester platform is only accessible by stairs and from both platforms there's a large drop from the train to the platform, there's a Harrington hump on both platforms but it only covers one set of doors so if there's a double formation which includes a 142 or 150/1 and the passengers are alighting then they might be on the wrong set to use the hump (and even if they are on the right set the guards rarely announce about the hump even though they frequently warn about a large gap.) Most of the time one of the RPIs is sent to assist (during times they are there) and if not they have to get assistance from fellow passengers and that's on a line with a guard on every service. Unless someone needs the ramp putting down or are struggling to get on/off from the door the guard is standing next to they rarely move along the train to help someone.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Agree completely! There should never be a situation where disabled passengers are left to be over carried on trains or stranded on platforms due to assistance staff being double booked. Companies and the dft need to think of the human cost rather than just the financial implications ie cost of employing more staff verses compensation paid out when the system fails.

Agreed but similarly there should never be someone over carried because an on board member of staff forgot which station they were alighting at. For disabled passengers to be treated the same as regular passengers they should also be allowed to change their mind about which station they alight at.
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
Out of interest, what is the procedure for booked assist and non booked assist at stations which don't have lifts, only steps?

Do they book in Elderly luggage assists on the list and the staff are expected to lift the cases up and down the stairs? (Where the person is able to manage the stairs I mean)?
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Do they book in Elderly luggage assists on the list and the staff are expected to lift the cases up and down the stairs? (Where the person is able to manage the stairs I mean)?
In my experience, yes.
In cases where a customer needs step-free access, they should be allowed to travel to the nearest step-free station (even if that means being overcarried) and provided with a taxi to their destination.
 

DanTrain

Member
Joined
9 Jul 2017
Messages
753
Location
Sheffield
Can I please propose a 5th option here: that of a student moving to Uni in September, no-one in their family owns a car/has the willingness/money to drive and so they have to take the train.

Whilst I appreciate they wouldn’t qualify for assistance, surely if they phoned ahead and were willing to pay a little, it would be more than reasonable to expect help moving two or three large bags at a major station?
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
In my experience, yes.
In cases where a customer needs step-free access, they should be allowed to travel to the nearest step-free station (even if that means being overcarried) and provided with a taxi to their destination.

That's not good then if staff have to carry cases up and down stairs because there's no step free access. How do the risk assessments cover for staff doing that? Presumably if they had an accident the company would say the staff shouldnt be carrying cases up and down stairs and they can't hold on or lift safely? How does this pass?
 

Esker-pades

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2015
Messages
3,781
Location
Beds, Bucks, or somewhere else
Can I please propose a 5th option here: that of a student moving to Uni in September, no-one in their family owns a car/has the willingness/money to drive and so they have to take the train.

Whilst I appreciate they wouldn’t qualify for assistance, surely if they phoned ahead and were willing to pay a little, it would be more than reasonable to expect help moving two or three large bags at a major station?

I find myself in that position at either end of term. I honestly wouldn't have the confidence to ask anyone to help, especially if it ate into the scarce resources of helping people who aren't in need of assistance purely because of a lifestyle choice.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,226
Assistance is always provided with the caveat that it's subject to the capability of the staff members involved. If you turn up with excessively heavy luggage beyond their safe capability to handle then they're within their rights to refuse regardless.
 

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,960
Assistance is always provided with the caveat that it's subject to the capability of the staff members involved. If you turn up with excessively heavy luggage beyond their safe capability to handle then they're within their rights to refuse regardless.

Surely though requiring staff to lift any sort of medium or bigger trolley case up and down stairs shouldn't be the set procedure at a station just because it has no lifts?

If the staff fell wouldn't they be entitled to a huge payout because the company put them in that position as there was no alternative and they were taking luggage assistance bookings?

I can't imagine it's the case that if you work at a station with lifts you have a comfortable time but if you're unfortunate enough to work at a station with no step free access that you're expected to lift every assist's cases up and down the stairs risking your own health? Even a ten kilo 2 foot case up the stairs with one hand sounds far from safe for a member of staff on duty as regards safe methods of work. Especially on a frequent basis.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top