When was "London" added to the names of all the termini in the capital?

[Rescars]

It's a much better name now, imagine a service from Manchester London Road to London Euston.

mods note - split from this thread

Which begs a question no doubt answered elsewhere, but when was "London" added to the names of all the termini in the capital? Was this rebranding carried out at around the same time that London Road became Piccadilly?

 

[Trackman]

Which begs a question no doubt answered elsewhere, but when was "London" added to the names of all the termini in the capital? Was this rebranding carried out at around the same time that London Road became Piccadilly?

They haven't. Euston is Euston, King's Cross is King's Cross, St.Pancras, Cannon St etc.. l. They say 'London Euston' so people have an idea where want to go, off on a tangent Waverley station was renamed unlike Euston etc..

 

[vlad]

They haven't. Euston is Euston, King's Cross is King's Cross, St.Pancras, Cannon St etc.. l. They say 'London Euston' so people have an idea where want to go, off on a tangent Waverley station was renamed unlike Euston etc..

Given that the platform signs say London Euston (photo here), I'd assume that the London terminals are indeed named London Wherever. True the locals just call it Euston - but then they know where they are, similar to how Mancs know where they're talking about when they say Piccadilly station.

 

[Millisle]

Given that the platform signs say London Euston (photo here), I'd assume that the London terminals are indeed named London Wherever. True the locals just call it Euston - but then they know where they are, similar to how Mancs know where they're talking about when they say Piccadilly station.

In fact if you go back far enough the custom was geographical name followed by any other designation in brackets. Hence my BR ScR 1948 timetable, for example, uses London (Euston).

 

[Springs Branch]

In fact if you go back far enough the custom was geographical name followed by any other designation in brackets. Hence my BR ScR 1948 timetable, for example, uses London (Euston).

The London (xxxx) format seems to have disappeared sometime in the early 1960s.
Looking back through some old LMR timetables, these show:-

• Sept 1949: London (Euston), Manchester (London Road), Liverpool (Exchange), Glasgow (Central) etc.
  Broad Street is shown as just 'Broad Street' in the timetables for the Watford DC and North London Line.
  However there was a separate table for the "Residentals" (WCML outer suburban service) which had it as 'London Broad Street'.
  
  
• June 1960: London (Euston), London (Broad Street) (for all of WCML, DC and NLL timetables), Manchester (London Road), Liverpool (Exchange) etc.
  
  
• May 1964: London Euston, London Broad Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Exchange . . .

Given that the platform signs say London Euston (photo here), I'd assume that the London terminals are indeed named London Wherever . . . .

This prompted the question whether all of today's London Terminals include 'London' in their platform signage?

Certainly, big terminals handling long-distance travellers, lots of people unfamiliar with London and visitors from overseas do. No arguing about cases like London Euston, London Liverpool Street or London Paddington.*

But what about those stations used mostly by commuters and semi-regular travellers from the Home Counties, who generally know pretty much where they are? And a few 'grey area' stations like Marylebone and Blackfriars?

A quick scan of Google Images seems to suggest the only ones not having 'London' in their platform signs are:

• Fenchurch Street
• St Pancras International - on the two Thameslink platforms.
• Moorgate (GN)

I couldn't find any photos of the EMR or SE High Speed platforms at St Pancras to see whether these locations include London in their signage.
Although Thameslink doesn't use 'London' at its St Pancras platforms (or in its pdf timetables), it does use 'London Blackfriars'.
And while the platform signs seem to show just 'Fenchurch Street', the c2c pdf timetables list it as 'London Fenchurch Street'.
Towards the end in the NSE era, Holborn Viaduct seemed to have signage saying just 'Holborn Viaduct'.

* Do the new Elizabeth Line platform signs at Liverpool Street and Paddington have 'London'? I bet they don't.

 

[nw1]

IIRC there were several London Road stations that may have given confusion at ticket offices, eg Leicester and Nottingham? London Road Stations still exist at Brighton and Guildford.

Incidentally those two have several curious coincidental similiarities.

Both are immediately adjacent to the town's major station (Guildford and Brighton); both are on lines which curve sharply eastwards just north of that major station; both - in the days of slam-door stock - were served by trains with headcode 42; and both lines have London Road, two other small stations, and then a more important junction station.

 

[Western Lord]

The London (xxxx) format seems to have disappeared sometime in the early 1960s.
Looking back through some old LMR timetables, these show:-

• Sept 1949: London (Euston), Manchester (London Road), Liverpool (Exchange), Glasgow (Central) etc.
  Broad Street is shown as just 'Broad Street' in the timetables for the Watford DC and North London Line.
  However there was a separate table for the "Residentals" (WCML outer suburban service) which had it as 'London Broad Street'.
  
  
• June 1960: London (Euston), London (Broad Street) (for all of WCML, DC and NLL timetables), Manchester (London Road), Liverpool (Exchange) etc.
  
  
• May 1964: London Euston, London Broad Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Exchange . . .

This prompted the question whether all of today's London Terminals include 'London' in their platform signage?

Certainly, big terminals handling long-distance travellers, lots of people unfamiliar with London and visitors from overseas do. No arguing about cases like London Euston, London Liverpool Street or London Paddington.*

But what about those stations used mostly by commuters and semi-regular travellers from the Home Counties, who generally know pretty much where they are? And a few 'grey area' stations like Marylebone and Blackfriars?

A quick scan of Google Images seems to suggest the only ones not having 'London' in their platform signs are:

• Fenchurch Street
• St Pancras International - on the two Thameslink platforms.
• Moorgate (GN)

I couldn't find any photos of the EMR or SE High Speed platforms at St Pancras to see whether these locations include London in their signage.
Although Thameslink doesn't use 'London' at its St Pancras platforms (or in its pdf timetables), it does use 'London Blackfriars'.
And while the platform signs seem to show just 'Fenchurch Street', the c2c pdf timetables list it as 'London Fenchurch Street'.
Towards the end in the NSE era, Holborn Viaduct seemed to have signage saying just 'Holborn Viaduct'.

* Do the new Elizabeth Line platform signs at Liverpool Street and Paddington have 'London'? I bet they don't.

Underground stations that serve main line terminals do without the London prefix, for fairly obvious reasons

 

[Rescars]

Underground stations that serve main line terminals do without the London prefix, for fairly obvious reasons

Excepting London Bridge of course!

 

[midland1]

Excepting London Bridge of course!

Well you could call it just Bridge! sorry.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Excepting London Bridge of course!

Technically, it should be called London London Bridge

 

[Joe Paxton]

mods note - split from this thread

Which begs a question no doubt answered elsewhere, but when was "London" added to the names of all the termini in the capital? Was this rebranding carried out at around the same time that London Road became Piccadilly?

I think the 'London' prefixes may have been added in the 80's.

 

[nw1]

I think the 'London' prefixes may have been added in the 80's.

Prior to 1974 based on the evidence I have: another forum member sent me scans of some 1974 timetables on the SWML and Portsmouth Direct and it's "London Waterloo" on there.

 

[Magdalia]

In Eastern Region public timetables London then the station name in brackets was used for long distance services, but just the station name for suburban services. So it would be London (King's Cross) in the East coast Main Line timetables but King's Cross in the suburban timetables.

The first all line timetable in 1974 standardised on London King's Cross.

But working timetables used King's Cross until changing to London King's Cross some time in the early 1980s. I don't have a complete run of WTTs to determine exactly when that happened.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Prior to 1974 based on the evidence I have: another forum member sent me scans of some 1974 timetables on the SWML and Portsmouth Direct and it's "London Waterloo" on there.

There's also a Waterloo on Merseyside so might London's version have gained the prefix earlier for clarity?

Glasgow has a Charing Cross - when did the London example gain the prefix?

 

[nw1]

P

There's also a Waterloo on Merseyside so might London's version have gained the prefix earlier for clarity?

Glasgow has a Charing Cross - when did the London example gain the prefix?

Possibly. The 1982 timetable on Timetable World seems to use "London ...." for all of them, and this also agrees with my personal memory: I started using trains in 1982.

 

[SargeNpton]

Mid to late 1980s is my recollection of all the London termini being given the London prefix on platforms signs, timetables and all publicity material.

 

[30907]

BR timetables in 1958 were consistent in using London (N) or London N for termini (the SR left out the brackets!) except for WR and ER suburban services.
The change seems to have been standardised a year or two earlier - Bradshaw, and the regional volumes, as late as 1955, didn't use it (except for the LMR).

 

[eoff]

Well you could call it just Bridge! sorry.

Sure, we already have High Street.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The station names in brackets led to stupidities like "passengers change from (Snow Hill) to (New Street) stations at their own expense".
I think the LMR (or the LMS) was the first to insist on the full station name, while the GWR was the last, just using "Paddington".

Pre-grouping, there wasn't the same need to identify stations when they were are owned by different companies.
There were very few cases where the same company had multiple stations in a town - Cheltenham (GWR) was one, Worcester another.
It was only after nationalisation that tags like "Midland" and "Central" began to appear to distinguish BR stations in the same town.

Oddities still persist, even with the same operator.
Pendolinos say firmly "London Euston", while Voyagers on the same route just show "Euston", even though there is room for the full "London Euston" on the PIS.
We'll have to see what the 80x produce.

 

[Taunton]

Edinburgh similar, the large signs at the entrances in the 1970s all said "Waverley station", but nowadays have moved on to "Edinburgh Waverley", while timetables have gone further and just say "Edinburgh". NOBODY in the city would just call it Edinburgh Station, say to a taxi driver. Adjacent Haymarket, equally convenient for much of the city centre, seems never to have had the city name included.

 

[Rescars]

The station names in brackets led to stupidities like "passengers change from (Snow Hill) to (New Street) stations at their own expense".
I think the LMR (or the LMS) was the first to insist on the full station name, while the GWR was the last, just using "Paddington".

Pre-grouping, there wasn't the same need to identify stations when they were are owned by different companies.
There were very few cases where the same company had multiple stations in a town - Cheltenham (GWR) was one.
It was only after nationalisation that tags like "Midland" and "Central" began to appear to distinguish BR stations in the same town.

Maybe it depends a bit on the layout of lines and the shape of the town, but East, West and indeed South and New Croydon were all served by the LBSC. GWR had more than one station in Exeter and also in Monmouth (IIRC). Others may have further examples.

 

[Taunton]

There were very few cases where the same company had multiple stations in a town - Cheltenham (GWR) was one.
It was only after nationalisation that tags like "Midland" and "Central" began to appear to distinguish BR stations in the same town.

There were quite a few. LNWR had two separate main stations in Manchester, London Road and Exchange, and Caledonian had two separate termini in Glasgow, Central and Buchanan Street. While the SECR had two main stations in many places around Kent (and a string of main termini in central London). I'm sure there are more.

 

[Rescars]

There were quite a few. LNWR had two separate main stations in Manchester, London Road and Exchange, and Caledonian had two separate termini in Glasgow, Central and Buchanan Street. While the SECR had two main stations in many places around Kent (and a string of main termini in central London). I'm sure there are more.

Worcester is another. Where do you draw the line? For instance, leaving Worcester, the GWR had stations at Malvern Link, Great Malvern and Malvern Wells. Are these really separate places? Roadsigns from a few miles away conflate them all as "The Malverns".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Worcester is another. Where do you draw the line? For instance, leaving Worcester, the GWR had stations at Malvern Link, Great Malvern and Malvern Wells. Are these really separate places? Roadsigns from a few miles away conflate them all as "The Malverns".

Well they were all separate villages when the railway arrived, now simply called "Malvern" locally (but the difference is still reflected in the house prices ).
Malvern Wells had two stations close together,* the Midland one (towards Ashchurch) slightly downhill of the GWR one (towards Hereford through Colwall tunnel).

* both of them a mile or more from the village

 

[Rescars]

Well they were all separate villages when the railway arrived, now simply called "Malvern" locally (but the difference is still reflected in the house prices ).
Malvern Wells had two stations close together,* the Midland one (towards Ashchurch) slightly downhill of the GWR one (towards Hereford through Colwall tunnel).

* both of them a mile or more from the village

Reverting to your previous point about names being changed to avoid confusion post nationalisation, IIRC Malvern Wells (Mid) was renamed Malvern Hanley Road for about a year before the line was closed. No more convenient for the village of course, but rather more convenient for the Three Counties showground if it had existed at the time!

 

[Taunton]

Worcester is another. Where do you draw the line?

I was actually quite surprised to find that passenger usage at simplistic Foregate Street is two to three times that of mainstream Shrub Hill. Alighting from the grandly-titled Cathedrals Express at Shrub Hill, I was amazed to find it had retreated to an unstaffed halt for the evening, and there were no taxis outside.

 

[Rescars]

I was actually quite surprised to find that passenger usage at simplistic Foregate Street is two to three times that of mainstream Shrub Hill. Alighting from the grandly-titled Cathedrals Express at Shrub Hill, I was amazed to find it had retreated to an unstaffed halt for the evening, and there were no taxis outside.

It is a while since I last alighted at either, but Foregate Street is a lot closer to the centre of the city. Shrub Hill unstaffed indeed. My goodness, how the mighty are fallen!

 

[Pigeon]

I was actually quite surprised to find that passenger usage at simplistic Foregate Street is two to three times that of mainstream Shrub Hill. Alighting from the grandly-titled Cathedrals Express at Shrub Hill, I was amazed to find it had retreated to an unstaffed halt for the evening, and there were no taxis outside.

<shrug> Well, Foregate Street is right in the middle of the town, while Shrub Hill is quite a way out to the east. It is, however, a very useful station for all the residential areas on the east side of the city (well, I would say that, I live in one), and I'm a bit surprised that you found no taxis; they usually find plenty of custom from people wanting a ride for the "last mile", especially as it's uphill. (And it could be an even more useful station if they used some of the disused freight yard area behind it to remedy its chronic shortage of car parking, instead of letting it go bit by bit to have crap built on it.)

For those what don't know, the local layout is that the River Severn runs basically north-south. The town is set on a lump of higher ground on the east bank, and the Worcester-Birmingham canal runs also basically north-south through the valley on the other side of the lump and then swings round to join the river at Diglis docks south of the city. So an industrial belt developed all down the east side of the city alongside the canal (some pretty heavy stuff, too, you'd not think it these days). To the north of the industrial area, the canal valley was at that time a kind of scenic orchard area, and on the hillside rising to the east of it there developed a terrace of nobs' houses sited to enjoy the view west over the orchard and the city beyond.

So when the OW&W came along, all the space east of the river was already occupied up to the far side of the industrial belt, and their closest clear route was to run up along the contour part way up the side of the rising ground east of the industrial belt, then build a station where that line crossed the ancient road out of St Martin's Gate heading east from the city. It would have been simpler to then carry on towards Wolverhampton by continuing the contour route along the hillside parallel to the canal, but that would have given the terrace of nobby houses a close-up view of the railway running through their gardens, so instead they took a kink north-east immediately beyond Shrub Hill station and dug a tunnel through the hill to continue on the other side.

This layout then meant that the W&H had only one possible choice of a sensible route: to commence by turning the kink into a junction, run along the boundary between the industrial belt and the orchardy bit, cross the canal, skim past the northern boundary of the old city walls, cross the road out of the Fore Gate (with a station at this natural point) and then carry on west across the river. The resulting line of embankment/viaduct then became a kind of natural limit for the expansion of the really centrey bit of the town centre, which squashed up against it so there's a sudden change in character as you go under the Foregate Street bridge.

There was a fantastic web of sidings starting from just north of Shrub Hill station, and descending fearsome gradients by such means as switchback reversing necks and tunnels under factories to get down to the level of the canalside industries. There are still some amazingly curved rails embedded in some people's yards. The approach to Shrub Hill station was also very impressive, with a broad straight road leading directly up the hill from the canal straight towards the very grand frontage of the station. They've completely ruined that now; the broad straight road has turned into a back alley, and there's a horrid office tower block obscuring the station frontage - which regularly comes top in semi-humorous surveys of what building people in Worcester would most like to see demolished, and it's been falling apart for years, but the thing is still there.

OK, it's kind of off the topic of the thread, but that's why Worcester's stations are where they are, and someone might be interested.

 

[30907]

Thanks Pigeon - fascinating

 

[Taunton]

Worcester's problem is that the three main flows through it, London to Hereford, Birmingham to Hereford, and Birmingham to Bristol, form a triangle through the city area, which is not easily possible to handle by one central station, and furthermore the flows to both Hereford and Birmingham come from two different directions. Given the UK inability to arrange reversing services sensibly (or even at all), that just makes it too difficult. West Midland Trains operate Shrub Hill, but as I understand it have very little service there, this probably leading to the decision to have it unstaffed outside working hours. All the Worcester lines were originally GWR lines, the Midland passing some miles to the east, although in irony the main road to Shrub Hill station, including passing the Worcestershire Sauce factory, is called Midland Road.

The industrial branches between Shrub Hill and the river were a feature of several magazine articles from times when Pannier Tanks served them, they crossed the local roads on the level, controlled not by normal crossing gates but just by GWR lower quadrant signals facing road traffic. One wonders how much notice road traffic took of them. Here's a picture

https://m.facebook.com/DidcotRailwayCentre/photos/a.210517012308528/5904847329542106/