When will the 15x Sprinter trains get withdrawn and replaced?

[capitalconnect]

When are the 150/153/155/156/158/159 Sprinter trains going to be finally withdrawn?

These trains are so old now and well past the end of their life but yet they are all still in service with no plans to replace them. They are still in service all around the country. It is ridiculous.

The vast majority of the EMUs that are of a similar age (313/314/315/317/318/319/320/321/322/455/456/507/508) have either been withdrawn or are planned to be withdrawn very soon but yet these DMUs are still in use.

When will these Sprinter trains finally be withdrawn and replaced? How much longer will they be in service? Are there any reasons why there are still no plans to get rid of them? Will they just keep them until more lines get electrified to avoid having to buy new DMUs and save money?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While they aren't that much newer, Class 175's release from TfW could easily replace some 156s (being basically upgraded 156s anyway) - but there are only a tiny number of them. Chiltern's 168/170 fleet would also be an opportunity if that was to be electrified, though there also aren't that many of those, surprisingly. It's difficult to see an end in sight for 158s, though, and there's not a lot to replace 150s either bar electrification.

Another cascade option would be to build new bi-modes for Northern's long distance part-wired routes and cascade 195s down.

Astonished me just how many 156s there are - 114 units according to Wiki - I never thought it would be anything like that many. And a massive 170 158s!

 

[D6975]

There were actually 182 class 158s originally, never trust Wiki. 3 of them are temporarily disbanded to form GWRs extra 3 car hybrid sets. 8 are renumbered as 159/1 for SWT.

 

[bramling]

When are the 150/153/155/156/158/159 Sprinter trains going to be finally withdrawn?

These trains are so old now and well past the end of their life but yet they are all still in service with no plans to replace them. They are still in service all around the country. It is ridiculous.

The vast majority of the EMUs that are of a similar age (313/314/315/317/318/319/320/321/322/455/456/507/508) have either been withdrawn or are planned to be withdrawn very soon but yet these DMUs are still in use.

When will these Sprinter trains finally be withdrawn and replaced? How much longer will they be in service? Are there any reasons why there are still no plans to get rid of them? Will they just keep them until more lines get electrified to avoid having to buy new DMUs and save money?

I’d say it’s a good bet there will still be Sprinters in service into the 2030s. They are simply too indispensible.

Meanwhile the industry has been too busy getting rid of EMUs they didn’t need to get rid of...

 

[387star]

I travelled on a 156 from Helensburgh Upper to Glasgow recently. Rock hard seats and horribly noisy. Couldn't do the whole journey to mallaig in one.

 

[capitalconnect]

While they aren't that much newer, Class 175's release from TfW could easily replace some 156s (being basically upgraded 156s anyway) - but there are only a tiny number of them. Chiltern's 168/170 fleet would also be an opportunity if that was to be electrified, though there also aren't that many of those, surprisingly. It's difficult to see an end in sight for 158s, though, and there's not a lot to replace 150s either bar electrification.

Another cascade option would be to build new bi-modes for Northern's long distance part-wired routes and cascade 195s down.

Astonished me just how many 156s there are - 114 units according to Wiki - I never thought it would be anything like that many. And a massive 170 158s!

Yes i had not realised that so many had been built. I had no idea it was over 100 of them. I thought it was far less than that. That will certainly be a difficult task to replace them. Good point about the 175s as i imagine that could release some Sprinters perhaps. But other than that it seems like it will be a very long time until they will get replaced. Our TOCs really need to order a large amount of new DMUs.

There were actually 182 class 158s originally, never trust Wiki. 3 of them are temporarily disbanded to form GWRs extra 3 car hybrid sets. 8 are renumbered as 159/1 for SWT.

So what happened to the other one? If there was 182 built and only 170 now with 8 reformed in to SWR 159 and 3 reformed in to GWR 158 hybrid units than that makes 181 total? Was the other one scrapped or sent somewhere else?

I’d say it’s a good bet there will still be Sprinters in service into the 2030s. They are simply too indispensible.

Meanwhile the industry has been too busy getting rid of EMUs they didn’t need to get rid of...

Exactly this is what i find crazy. They are getting rid of modern 332s and 365s which have plenty of more years left in them while meanwhile Sprinters are still in use all over the country. Perhaps they could have used the 332s and 365s elsewhere and spent the money on replacing some of the Sprinters instead of more new EMUs.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

There were actually 182 class 158s originally, never trust Wiki. 3 of them are temporarily disbanded to form GWRs extra 3 car hybrid sets. 8 are renumbered as 159/1 for SWT.

You'll find one at Long Marston, 158999, stripped of parts in regional railways livery.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Most of the remaining 15x have had recent refurbs and in most cases upgrades to meet PRM regs, so they are not going soon.
There is also a perennial shortage of DMUs, leading to 2-car sets on many trains.
158/159s are only 30 years old and have had major refits, so good for another decade or so.
156 are a bit older but will last nearly as long.
150/153 will go first as they are hardly fit for purpose, but some of the main operators have no new DMUs on order to replace them yet (eg Northern).
Things would be further along if TOCs with new trains had managed to cascade their older but still newish fleets (eg TP with 185s, TfW with 175s etc).

 

[JonathanH]

So what happened to the other one? If there was 182 built and only 170 now with 8 reformed in to SWR 159 and 3 reformed in to GWR 158 hybrid units than that makes 181 total? Was the other one scrapped or sent somewhere else?

171 - the missing units in the 158701-872/901-910 series are:
158737/42/43/44/72/75/79/81/802/808/814 renumbered as 158880-890
158800/01/03/04/05/07/09/11 renumbered as 159101/08/02-07
158761/64/68/71/76/78 reformed as 158950/51/56/57/58/59 with 158751/48/46 disbanded for the additional coaches.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You'll find one at Long Marston, 158999, stripped of parts in regional railways livery.

Isn't that the spare bodyshell and it was never fitted out in the first place?

 

[david1212]

When are the 150/153/155/156/158/159 Sprinter trains going to be finally withdrawn?

These trains are so old now and well past the end of their life but yet they are all still in service with no plans to replace them. They are still in service all around the country. It is ridiculous.

The vast majority of the EMUs that are of a similar age (313/314/315/317/318/319/320/321/322/455/456/507/508) have either been withdrawn or are planned to be withdrawn very soon but yet these DMUs are still in use.

When will these Sprinter trains finally be withdrawn and replaced? How much longer will they be in service? Are there any reasons why there are still no plans to get rid of them? Will they just keep them until more lines get electrified to avoid having to buy new DMUs and save money?

There will be no more straight DMU's once existing orders are completed.

As you suggest some will be replaced by electrification but the infrastructure is years away.

Others by some form of hybrid or alternative power i.e. battery or hydrogen. Nothing is yet fully developed to a level of large scale production. The trains are only one part and useless without the refuelling infrastructure.

I can not see mass withdrawals before the next decade.

 

[LowLevel]

Isn't that the spare bodyshell and it was never fitted out in the first place?

Yes, there were 2, the other was used to replace a vehicle from 158861 which was damaged beyond repair at Hazel Grove in 1992 but re-registered with the same number.

 

[D6975]

So what happened to the other one? If there was 182 built and only 170 now with 8 reformed in to SWR 159 and 3 reformed in to GWR 158 hybrid units than that makes 181 total? Was the other one scrapped or sent somewhere else?

That's why I said don't trust Wiki, there hasn't ever been 170, however you count them.

 

[Watershed]

When are the 150/153/155/156/158/159 Sprinter trains going to be finally withdrawn?

These trains are so old now and well past the end of their life but yet they are all still in service with no plans to replace them. They are still in service all around the country. It is ridiculous.

The vast majority of the EMUs that are of a similar age (313/314/315/317/318/319/320/321/322/455/456/507/508) have either been withdrawn or are planned to be withdrawn very soon but yet these DMUs are still in use.

When will these Sprinter trains finally be withdrawn and replaced? How much longer will they be in service? Are there any reasons why there are still no plans to get rid of them? Will they just keep them until more lines get electrified to avoid having to buy new DMUs and save money?

Point of order - there is no real plan for replacing Southern's 455/456 fleet. Nor is there any known replacement for Scotrail's 318s/322s or Northern's 319s, though there are rumours surrounding both of those.

The 313s, which are now the oldest units on the network, also have no planned replacement. However they are much smaller in number, and could feasibly be replaced by 377s/387s if today's reduced timetable is made permanent.

But back to your titular question - there are no easy solutions. The Treasury is in no mood to authorise the electrification of secondary lines that would be needed to replace all of the Sprinter classes with EMUs.

Some lines could realistically use alternative traction solutions (e.g. battery power), but the majority will need bionic duck weed if they're not to be electrified. You might be waiting a while in that case!

There are still some new diesel units being produced as we speak - it seems unlikely that any more will be authorised (at least, not pure diesels), both on spending and environmental grounds. In turn, those new units will allow a cascade of 'mid life' units (170s, 175s etc.), but there are simply so many Sprinters that this won't be sufficient to replace them all.

The only conclusion I can reach is that, under the current circumstances, Sprinters are likely to continue running until such time as the Treasury takes out its chequebook, or until the lines are closed on environmental grounds.

 

[Helvellyn]

Technically 204 158 units were built (165 2-car and 39 3-car). The final 22, all 3-car, were acquired from Regional Railways by Network SouthEast before entry into traffic. They went from Derby Litchurch Lane to Rosyth Dockyard in full NSE livery but with no unit numbers were they were converted to 159001-159022. BREL wanted too much to deliver the units to NSE specification, so the work was contracted out. Aside from the NSE livery and interior fit-out (carpets and seat covers on Standard Class only) they were delivered to Rosyth as 158s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can possibly see the 155s going, as they are a microfleet of sorts (and will be more so once Northern gets rid of their 153s which obviously have many parts in common with them). It was suggested in another thread that an extra seven 156s that would otherwise be unspoken for would be an ideal replacement- you could even throw a few extras in for a bit more resilience.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes i had not realised that so many had been built. I had no idea it was over 100 of them. I thought it was far less than that. That will certainly be a difficult task to replace them. Good point about the 175s as i imagine that could release some Sprinters perhaps. But other than that it seems like it will be a very long time until they will get replaced. Our TOCs really need to order a large amount of new DMUs.


So what happened to the other one? If there was 182 built and only 170 now with 8 reformed in to SWR 159 and 3 reformed in to GWR 158 hybrid units than that makes 181 total? Was the other one scrapped or sent somewhere else?


Exactly this is what i find crazy. They are getting rid of modern 332s and 365s which have plenty of more years left in them while meanwhile Sprinters are still in use all over the country. Perhaps they could have used the 332s and 365s elsewhere and spent the money on replacing some of the Sprinters instead of more new EMUs.

The 332s had non-standard equipment, had been poorly maintained and had serious corrosion issues. The 365s had obsolescent, problematic electronics. Spares were an issue and replacement likely to be damned expensive for relatively old rolling stock.

In demanding that quantities of new DMUs be built you obviously completely missed the Government's statements about railway decarbonisation. Who would take the economic risk of building quantities of new DMUs with an uncertain future. It would be unsurprising if the CAF stock currently being delivered is the last pure DMU stock ever ordered for UK railways.

I can possibly see the 155s going, as they are a microfleet of sorts (and will be more so once Northern gets rid of their 153s which obviously have many parts in common with them). It was suggested in another thread that an extra seven 156s that would otherwise be unspoken for would be an ideal replacement- you could even throw a few extras in for a bit more resilience.

That would be sensible, stripping engines etc which are also used on other stock for use as spares.

Most of the remaining 15x have had recent refurbs and in most cases upgrades to meet PRM regs, so they are not going soon.
There is also a perennial shortage of DMUs, leading to 2-car sets on many trains.
158/159s are only 30 years old and have had major refits, so good for another decade or so.
156 are a bit older but will last nearly as long.
150/153 will go first as they are hardly fit for purpose, but some of the main operators have no new DMUs on order to replace them yet (eg Northern).
Things would be further along if TOCs with new trains had managed to cascade their older but still newish fleets (eg TP with 185s, TfW with 175s etc).

Agreed

 

[Horizon22]

The lack of any electrification strategy and then electrification delays has probably pushed these units on longer than was maybe expected. With hindsight, new DMUs could have been ordered in say the early 2000s which would be approaching 20 years old now. These would have almost certainly replaced sprinters.

Delays to other new fleets obviously means the cascades are delayed and guess which fleets are now right at the bottom of the rung…

 

[ScottGallagher]

I wouldn't rule out another DMU order at all, why the Government is wedded to this is puzzling when the country has more urgent issues. When push comes to shove most passengers won't know or care what the traction is if it's new.

Surely a 195 /196/197 or new variant is already still more 'green' than 150s or 156s in terms of fuel burn and if designed as such can have provision for later conversion. That must be easy to spin for now.

 

[D365]

Perhaps they could have used the 332s and 365s elsewhere and spent the money on replacing some of the Sprinters instead of more new EMUs.

Who is ”they”? The 365s are one thing, but the 332s were completely knackered.

 

[Towers]

When are the 150/153/155/156/158/159 Sprinter trains going to be finally withdrawn?

These trains are so old now and well past the end of their life but yet they are all still in service with no plans to replace them. They are still in service all around the country. It is ridiculous.

The vast majority of the EMUs that are of a similar age (313/314/315/317/318/319/320/321/322/455/456/507/508) have either been withdrawn or are planned to be withdrawn very soon but yet these DMUs are still in use.

When will these Sprinter trains finally be withdrawn and replaced? How much longer will they be in service? Are there any reasons why there are still no plans to get rid of them? Will they just keep them until more lines get electrified to avoid having to buy new DMUs and save money?

I agree and disagree in equal measure, depending on which class!

The MK3 multiple unit fleets are undeniably showing their age now, regardless of PRM mods carried out there surely can be no hiding the vintage of a train with hinged inter-connecting doors, no A/C system of any sort and external doors that bang and rattle every time a train passes. Although of course some are about to embark on a new life as the future in certain fleets, wearing a new class number.... (769s!).

However you also mention the 158/159 fleets, and quite simply they are superb trains! They have some age, certainly, however when they're properly maintained and well presented they're arguably still superior to a lot of things that have appeared since. Southwest Trains' fleet was pretty much the perfect example of this, they were (and mostly still are) lovely things to travel on. For a BR "shed engineering" design, they put plenty of current train manufacturers to shame for sure - particularly where the nation's intercity fleet for the next 30 years or so is concerned. Can we keep them in service, please!

 

[AM9]

I wouldn't rule out another DMU order at all, why the Government is wedded to this is puzzling when the country has more urgent issues. When push comes to shove most passengers won't know or care what the traction is if it's new.

On pollution matters, it's not the passengers that suffer, - whilst the sit in their air conditioned an filtered bubble it might feel nice, but noxious gases are outside the train which those not even using the railway are forced to endure.

Surely a 195 /196/197 or new variant is already still more 'green' than 150s or 156s in terms of fuel burn and if designed as such can have provision for later conversion. That must be easy to spin for now.

Yes, diesel-electric versions are offered for many of the types that have been purchased but the TOCs/DfT have gone for the cheapest up-front cost commensurate with their terms in contract/office. DMUs have mechanical or hydraulic transmissions that could not function in any other mode.

 

[skyhigh]

Surely a 195 /196/197 or new variant is already still more 'green' than 150s or 156s in terms of fuel burn

I'm not so sure - a 195 is heavier than a 150, more powerful and with higher power requirements for air con etc. I don't have figures but I wouldn't be surprised if a 195 was less fuel efficient than a 150.

Our TOCs really need to order a large amount of new DMUs.

The absolute last thing TOCs should be doing right now is ordering a large number of pure DMUs.

 

[AM9]

I'm not so sure - a 195 is heavier than a 150, more powerful and with higher power requirements for air con etc. I don't have figures but I wouldn't be surprised if a 195 was less fuel efficient than a 150.


The absolute last thing TOCs should be doing right now is ordering a large number of pure DMUs.

Some people (including those responsible for acquiring new stock) just don't get the message about the pollution legacy of new DMUs.

 

[Irascible]

The 158s you can't really lump in with the others, I think - they were ( in terms of stock for BR ) a bit of a radical departure from the previous lot & perhaps ( I'm guessing here ) a slightly conservative approach seems to have paid off - they're lasting wonderfully well if starting to show some reliability issues. I'm wondering if perhaps they might get away with replacing some of the least reliable old systems ( and the a/c! ) to keep them going until newer tech like battery and/or alt fuel has matured enough for a replacement fleet. I'll take a 159 over an 80x even if the journey is slower.

Looking at a lot of our new diesel builds, I'm not sure a new fleet would be any more reliable than the old fleet...

 

[bramling]

Who is ”they”? The 365s are one thing, but the 332s were completely knackered.

The only issue on the 365s as far as I know was the inverters were beginning to give trouble, in common with other fleets of similar age. The contemporary 323s had theirs replaced pretty much without anyone noticing, so that shouldn’t been a showstopper.

I can say completely categorically that using 365s literally from start to finish on WAGN, FCC and GN, at times on an almost daily basis, I have *never* had one fail to turn up or fail to get me home. The most I can think of is a delayed journey due to a cab air con fault, an AWS fault which a fitter was able to rectify after a few minutes, and a few occasions where the train has partially lost traction and needed a reboot.

It goes without saying this compares rather favourably with other fleets, not least the class 700, where cancellations “due to a fault on this train” are *still* commonplace, and I’ve already had three occasions where the train had had to be tipped out due to a defect. The GN 365s worked properly from day one, right up until the last, and no doubt would have happily continued to do so with the right engineering focus.

 

[Neptune]

Point of order - there is no real plan for replacing Southern's 455/456 fleet. Nor is there any known replacement for Scotrail's 318s/322s or Northern's 319s, though there are rumours surrounding both of those.

Northern’s 319’s are being replaced by 17 WMR 323’s once they are released by the 730’s.

 

[Towers]

Point of order - there is no real plan for replacing Southern's 455/456 fleet. Nor is there any known replacement for Scotrail's 318s/322s or Northern's 319s, though there are rumours surrounding both of those.

Point of pedantry on your point of order; there aren't any Southern 456s any more are there - I thought they all went to SWT/SWR? Where there a is a plan to replace them, but it's sitting about waiting for everyone to stop arguing before it can enter service!

 

[jackot]

The 158s you can't really lump in with the others, I think - they were ( in terms of stock for BR ) a bit of a radical departure from the previous lot & perhaps ( I'm guessing here ) a slightly conservative approach seems to have paid off - they're lasting wonderfully well if starting to show some reliability issues. I'm wondering if perhaps they might get away with replacing some of the least reliable old systems ( and the a/c! ) to keep them going until newer tech like battery and/or alt fuel has matured enough for a replacement fleet. I'll take a 159 over an 80x even if the journey is slower.

Looking at a lot of our new diesel builds, I'm not sure a new fleet would be any more reliable than the old fleet...

I completely agree, they certainly have a lot of life left in them. Compared to the IET’s, they are much, much more comfortable. For London to Exeter, Considering you can usually get a first class advance ticket on SWR for less than standard on GWR, it’s a no brainier to choose the 158/159 for comfort alone. They are definitely the most favoured sprinter stock among passengers, and from my understanding operators too, so I can see them operating until the 2030’s.

As for other sprinters, I don’t think there is really a good replacement for them yet. Pure DMU’s are not future-proof for potential electrification and do not fit in with environmental plans, and battery or hydrogen systems are not ready yet. I think more of an IEP style rollout could be done, with a large fleet of similar Bi Modes/ Tri Modes, rather than smaller microfleets.

 

[AM9]

I completely agree, they certainly have a lot of life left in them. Compared to the IET’s, they are much, much more comfortable. For London to Exeter, Considering you can usually get a first class advance ticket on SWR for less than standard on GWR, it’s a no brainier to choose the 158/159 for comfort alone. They are definitely the most favoured sprinter stock among passengers, and from my understanding operators too, so I can see them operating until the 2030’s.

As for other sprinters, I don’t think there is really a good replacement for them yet. Pure DMU’s are not future-proof for potential electrification and do not fit in with environmental plans, and battery or hydrogen systems are not ready yet. I think more of an IEP style rollout could be done, with a large fleet of similar Bi Modes/ Tri Modes, rather than smaller microfleets.

The major European suppliers have had diesel-electric versions of their 'regional' style multiple units for sime time (including CAF). I think that for most of the 150/153/155/156 roles, there is more tnah enough scope to evolve a standard class of replacements, with convertability in mind. The baseline train is an EMU, - say a 331 style set (without the dodgy suspension and bogie yaw kit issues ) which with 23m bodies can accommodate diesel gensets and/or batteries, which would have the benefits of superior fuel efficiency where it was absolutely necessary to use diesel or have the range extension beyond the wires on batteries.
Aside from all the reliability problems and the chorus of criticism from some posters here, I do think that the 769 experience is being viewed very closely as a prelude to establishing a specification that meets UK requirements.