Where could a UK-wide High-speed network go?

[Fazaar1889]

Once HS2 and HS3 are complete and more people come to like them (Just like HS1), where could more High-speed lines go? Perhaps the southwest?

 

[PTR 444]

HS4: London to Cardiff via Bristol
HS5: Birmingham to Plymouth via Bristol
HS6: London to Newcastle via Cambridge, East Midlands and Leeds
HS7: London to Southampton via Brighton
HS8: Southampton to Birmingham via Oxford

 

[Fazaar1889]

HS4: London to Cardiff via Bristol
HS5: Birmingham to Plymouth via Bristol
HS6: London to Newcastle via Cambridge, East Midlands and Leeds
HS7: London to Southampton via Brighton
HS8: Southampton to Birmingham via Oxford

why via brighton?

 

[ivorytoast28]

Newcastle-Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool

Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham-Birmingham-Bristol/Cardiff

I've always thought the best north south axis would be high speed London-Leicester-Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow but *if* a full hs2 plan ever comes about it would probably be better to focus on non london connections or it will never get approved

 

[MattRat]

Either a replacement for the GWML or a replacement for the ECML. If it doesn't help London, it won't get the go ahead. Just look as 'HS3'. Most of it is HS2 with bits stuck on the end only where there is no other alternative, and even then, it'll be at capacity on day 1.

 

[The Planner]

HS3?

 

[PTR 444]

HS3?

Presumably the nickname for Northern Powerhouse Rail

why via brighton?

Because it takes in more demand, and would still be competitive compared with going via Basingstoke. Much of the route could be tunnelled underground anyway.

 

[DanNCL]

Because it takes in more demand, and would still be competitive compared with going via Basingstoke. Much of the route could be tunnelled underground anyway.

Via Portsmouth and then north-east to London maybe, but London - Southampton via Brighton isn't going to be competetive with the existing 100mph service via Basingstoke no matter what speed the trains via Brighton operated at, the additional distance added is too much - it's about 70 miles via Basingstoke, vs 100 miles via Brighton, or 80 miles via Portsmouth and Guildford.

 

[HSTEd]

My own pet project on this score is London to Brighton, then westwards along the coast to Weymouth or even Cornwall.

Relieve numerous very heavily trafficked main lines.

 

[A S Leib]

Short sections between Edinburgh, Glasgow and Stirling / Perth, even if not full new lines.

Preston - Manchester - Sheffield; again, probably more likely to be improvements to existing lines.

Nottingham to Doncaster, either as part of HS2 or as a separate line.

How feasible would a link between HS1 and HS2 splitting off between OOC / Euston and Ebbsfleet / Stratford be, with a station between London Bridge and Waterloo (risk of overloading the Bakerloo, Jubilee and Northern lines); or going from Old Oak Common to East Croydon, then joining the SEML near Sevenoaks or Tonbridge?

 

[swt_passenger]

why via brighton?

Because it’s the favourite idea of various forum members. But that‘s despite how often it’s explained that it cannot work. It’s a total fantasy dogleg route either through a national park, or through all the coastal towns, with about 50% extra mileage compared to simply speeding up the existing route.

 

[JonathanH]

How feasible would a link between HS1 and HS2 splitting off between OOC / Euston and Ebbsfleet / Stratford be, with a station between London Bridge and Waterloo (risk of overloading the Bakerloo, Jubilee and Northern lines); or going from Old Oak Common to East Croydon, then joining the SEML near Sevenoaks or Tonbridge?

Not feasible because it reduces capacity on HS2 for trains from London.

 

[rapmastaj]

Wouldn't the next line be an extension of HS2/HS3 north to Scotland? Most likely as Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Glasgow.

Then also Edinburgh - Perth direct, with the trains continuing on to Dundee/Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[Wychwood93]

Some of these could easily be removed into a 'drug induced fantasy' thread. A lot, most, of the others into a 'DfT has won serial euromillions' lottery. Some of the remaining few are not too bad.

 

[SynthD]

HS2 relieves trains that stop more frequently than Euston-Brum-Crewe. On PTR’s list the one that fits best is London-Newcastle. The others don’t have a significant range of stopping patterns.

I think there’ll be a better BCR for expanding HS2 and 3, ie to Glasgow and York/east coast respectively.

 

[Northumbriana]

• Crewe to Preston extension of HS2.
• Preston/Liverpool/Manchester to Carlisle HSL.
• Carlisle - Carstairs HSL junction - Glasgow/Edinburgh HSL.
• Eastern leg of HS2 with a branch into Nottingham and onto the Derby line at Lichfield.
• Colton Junction (York) - Team Valley (Gateshead) extension of HS2.
• Camperdown (Newcastle) - Alnmouth high speed bypass.
• Berwick & Dunbar cut offs.
• Manchester - Huddersfield - Bradford/Leeds - York fast line.
• London - Toton HS2 relief line with branches into both ends of Leicester.
• Chesterfield branch - Manchester fast line.
• Expansion of Birmingham Curzon Street station to allow for additional HS2 trains to terminate as well as XC trains from Reading, Bristol, Plymouth and Cardiff. With cross platform interchange to HS2 trains replacing full XC services.
• With HS Toton relieving HS2 a connection could run around the M25 connecting both those lines to HS1 near Tilbury.
• Connections from HS2 could also be provided from Birmingham Interchange onto the Oxford line.

 

[Eskimo]

A connection between HS1 and HS2 would be a smart idea, so would a Edinburgh - Glasgow - Belfast alignment. Money no object of course!

 

[MattRat]

so would a Edinburgh - Glasgow - Belfast alignment. Money no object of course!

If we are going into the realms of a Scottish wishlist, another idea might be a Scotland - Wales express.

 

[JonathanH]

A connection between HS1 and HS2 would be a smart idea

It has been repeatedly pointed out that a connection between HS1 and HS2 is in no way a smart idea.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-now-for-hs2.234172/page-2#post-5817543
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-hs1-link-will-it-happen-within-the-next-20-years.220363/

 

[JKF]

Rather than full new high speed lines, a lot of benefit could be gained by building high speed sections within large cities to get the mainline services in and out quickly, segregated from local services and infrastructure, avoiding the twists and turns and endless complex junctions. HS1 does this very well for example.

Similar high speed sections would be beneficial for example from Kings Cross up towards Stevenage, perhaps using the two recently reopened tunnels to have burrowed down deeper. Something from Waterloo past Croydon would be similarly useful, maybe great western line out towards Reading. Other cities also suffer from slow approaches, of those I’m familiar with Leeds and Manchester are often arrived at via an endless crawl for the last few miles (though I think Leeds has got a lot better since various resignalling and rebuild work over the last couple of decades).

 

[swt_passenger]

Similar high speed sections would be beneficial for example from Kings Cross up towards Stevenage, perhaps using the two recently reopened tunnels to have burrowed down deeper.

But only one tunnel was reopened.

Something from Waterloo past Croydon would be similarly useful, maybe great western line out towards Reading. Other cities also suffer from slow approaches, of those I’m familiar with Leeds and Manchester are often arrived at via an endless crawl for the last few miles (though I think Leeds has got a lot better since various resignalling and rebuild work over the last couple of decades).

What has Waterloo got to do with the route to Croydon?

 

[D365]

'Highspeed' is a dirty word. The UK is (and remains) a car-centric country - it's going to be a long time before new rail routes are so much as proposed.

 

[WizCastro197]

Crewe to Preston.
Preston/Liverpool/Manchester to Carlisle.
Carlisle - Carstairs HSL junction - Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Eastern leg of HS2.
Colton Junction (York) - Team Valley (Gateshead).
Camperdown (Newcastle) - Alnmouth.
Berwick & Dunbar cut offs.
Manchester - Huddersfield - Bradford/Leeds - York.
London - Toton.
Chesterfield branch - Manchester.

Originally going to be part of HS2, but no point having it terminate in a small village?

Manchester-Huddersfield-Bradford/Leeds seems like a lovely way to throw money down the drain, when it takes less that an hour to get between both? Same with Crewe to Preston really.

What would upgrading a section between Colton Junction and Gateshead achieve, apart from asking many trains to speed up then slow down again as it is only a small section of the line?

With Chesterfield, just change at Sheffield again.

 

[Purple Orange]

Originally going to be part of HS2, but no point having it terminate in a small village?

Manchester-Huddersfield-Bradford/Leeds seems like a lovely way to throw money down the drain, when it takes less that an hour to get between both. Why not just upgrade existing lines?

Same with Crewe to Preston really.

The existing line between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds is being upgraded, but upgrades alone won’t deliver what is needed, which is why we have NPR too, and Manchester-Leeds direct needs to be aiming to be roughly a 30 minute journey. Considering future extensions of high speed rail, I expect it would actually take the form of extending beyond the end points of the current planned network to enable shorter journey times and greater capacity in to Leeds.

 

[miklcct]

The UK isn't large enough to support a network of newly-built high speed railways.

What the UK need is a dense network of upgraded lines at 225 - 250 km/h running for a significant length for the main routes, and 200 km/h running for the regional routes.

For example, the East Coast Main Line should be upgraded to 225, or if possible, 250 km/h as soon as possible, followed by Great Western Main Line. South Western Main Line should be upgraded to 200 km/h between Waterloo and Southampton, and 160 km/h to Weymouth. West of England line should be made double track, electrified and upgraded to 200 km/h all the way to Exeter.

Those major trunk routes in the north should also be upgraded to 200 km/h as well.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Rather than full new high speed lines, a lot of benefit could be gained by building high speed sections within large cities to get the mainline services in and out quickly, segregated from local services and infrastructure, avoiding the twists and turns and endless complex junctions. HS1 does this very well for example.

Similar high speed sections would be beneficial for example from Kings Cross up towards Stevenage, perhaps using the two recently reopened tunnels to have burrowed down deeper. Something from Waterloo past Croydon would be similarly useful, maybe great western line out towards Reading. Other cities also suffer from slow approaches, of those I’m familiar with Leeds and Manchester are often arrived at via an endless crawl for the last few miles (though I think Leeds has got a lot better since various resignalling and rebuild work over the last couple of decades).

I agree, assuming HS2 and NPR are built as planned in the next 20-30 years I can see the next stage of high speed rail being built from city centres to outskirts to connect with upgraded lines, (I can’t see more dedicated High Speed lines like HS2 being built). I also think the HS2 Golbourne spur will be reinstated in some form at some point.

On the East Cost I can see a dedicated pair of high speed lines being built from Kings Cross to join the East Coast Mainline somewhere near Huntingdon to relive the Welwyn bottleneck with a spur onto East-West rail for services to Cambridge. Similarly in Leeds I can see the proposed HS2 platforms being built but then heading in a South Easterly direction to connect with the ECML near Doncaster with the ECML upgraded between Doncaster and Peterborough.

There was talk of a Scottish high speed line between Glasgow Central and Carstairs which would resolve a lot of conflicts on the approaches there.

Finally although not a dedicated high speed line itself I can see an inland bypass line from Exeter to Newton Abbot being built with a speed of around 125mph.

 

[Northumbriana]

Originally going to be part of HS2, but no point having it terminate in a small village?

Manchester-Huddersfield-Bradford/Leeds seems like a lovely way to throw money down the drain, when it takes less that an hour to get between both? Same with Crewe to Preston really.

What would upgrading a section between Colton Junction and Gateshead achieve, apart from asking many trains to speed up then slow down again as it is only a small section of the line?

With Chesterfield, just change at Sheffield again.

I don't think you've understood. It would be connecting to the HS2 Eastern leg at Toton, not terminating.

Current journey times between Manchester and Leeds are slow.

Crewe to Preston is the Golborne leg of HS2 that was originally going to Wigan. But extended to Preston.

Colton Junction to Gateshead is another idea for a high speed line. The thread is about speculative high speed lines. These are all suggestions for high speed lines other than Berwick and Dunbar cut offs. I'll try and clarify my previous post.

Chesterfield to Manchester is to speed up journeys from the East Midlands to the North West and provide an alternative to HS2 West should a relief line ever be required. That one is perhaps a bit 'out there' though.

 

[WizCastro197]

I don't think you've understood. It would be connecting to the HS2 Eastern leg at Toton, not terminating.

Current journey times between Manchester and Leeds are slow.

Crewe to Preston is the Golborne leg of HS2 that was originally going to Wigan. But extended to Preston.

Colton Junction to Gateshead is once again a high speed line. The thread is about speculative high speed lines. These are all suggestions for high speed lines.

I don't think Manchester-Leeds journey times are slow: look at us down here Reigate to London Victoria takes almost 50 minutes and that is only covering 20 miles or so. Manchester to Leeds seems to be 44 miles which is reasonable.

Yes but Colton Junction to Gateshead is a small section of a 125mph line, this thread is about lines that should be operating at higher speeds than this. If you are doing a small section, you might as well do the whole line.

 

[JonathanH]

On the East Cost I can see a dedicated pair of high speed lines being built from Kings Cross to join the East Coast Mainline somewhere near Huntingdon to relive the Welwyn bottleneck with a spur onto East-West rail for services to Cambridge.

It would be easier to just build the Eastern leg of HS2. The population a Welwyn avoider would be looking to serve lives in the East Midlands, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and the North East.

 

[Northumbriana]

I don't think Manchester-Leeds journey times are slow: look at us down here Reigate to London Victoria takes almost 50 minutes and that is only covering 20 miles or so.

Yes but Colton Junction to Gateshead is a small section of a 125mph line, this thread is about lines that should be operating at higher speeds than this. If you are doing a small section, you might as well do the whole line.

Colton Junction to Gateshead is about 90 miles.