Where could new sidings/depots for Northern be created ?

[Halifaxlad]

This is a thread for suggestions where temporary/permanent sidings could be created specifically for the Northern network!

As some will know the Cobra sidings have been restored in Wakefield to store some units in preparation for Transpennine Route Upgrade which will see Neville Hill depot temporarily closed. https://thetrupgrade.co.uk/tru-news/new-lease-of-life-for-disused-rail-facility-in-wakefield/

Also Northern are looking at creating a new depot in Shipley or at least looking at the prospect of creating one.

My two suggestions are at Halifax (diesel only) and keighley (electric)



The Keighley site is just North of Lawkholme Lane, it never used to have anything to do with rail, its been recently cleared and was not so long since on the market.



The Halifax site is just below the station next to the existing turnback siding, all of it used to be rail sidings. The approach to Halifax at this point used to be 6 lines wide.

Feel free to post your own suggestions and include a map (where possible)

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps a little bit more context about how many units will be needed in each place might be helpful?

With the Keighly site, does the railway own that land or would it require additional purchase? Separately, I'd have thought Gascoigne Wood would be a contender for new sidings, as it only requires a short run either through Micklefield or via Castleford and has lots of sidings space available for renewal.

 

[30907]

Keighley: the far third of the site was at one time railway land, however Googlemaps gives one the impression that the site is cleared for redevelopment - I've not been past for a bit.
Shipley - presumably Crossley Evans' scrapyard, which they probably lease.

Better might be the very large site at Healey Mills, assuming it isn't spoken for. But again, what is the perceived need?

 

[Iskra]

WCRC Hellifield sidings could take a few DMU’s I would imagine. With a bit of notice it could probably be modestly expanded.

There are also the electrified sidings North of Wakefield Westgate which used to have the 333’s parked in them, which are quite lengthy and convenient for Leeds.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Healey Mills surely? Loads of land, and handy for the motorway for staff

 

[geordieblue]

The railway land right just to the south of Kirkstall Viaduct? Really close to Leeds station and handy for the Leeds NW lines in particular

 

[bluenoxid]

Was there a plan for a fourth platform at Bradford Forster Square? If the issue is space rather than maintenance.

 

[JonathanH]

WCRC Hellifield sidings could take a few DMU’s I would imagine. With a bit of notice it could probably be modestly expanded.

Hellifield isn't a particularly strategic location though.

 

[Bevan Price]

St. Helens (ex-Shaw St) Goods Yard - if they clear the trees, I think some of the sidings still remain - with a forest growing between the rails.
Warrington (Arpley Yard) ?

 

[Neptune]

Remember with sidings they generally need to be near a Traincrew depot to keep taxi costs down.

Cobra and Crossley’s are a different kettle of fish as they are temporary sidings for a few units to stable to relieve space and capacity during the TRU works. Once this is complete (admittedly far off in the distant future) then they will probably become disused.

There is certainly no need for anything at Keighley as there is the decently sized complex of sidings at Skipton plus in future the aforementioned temporary location at Shipley, likewise Halifax would be pointless because Huddersfield is getting its own sidings complex to make up for the eventual loss of space at the station which will see a net increase in stabling capacity.

The suggestion of Hellifield to stable some DMU’s is also a no go. Currently only a single 3 car 158 is easily accommodated at Skipton per night (2 units on a Friday night). It would be using the space for the sake of it with no benefits (certainly cost wise).

Wrenthorpe sidings north of Wakefield would likewise be pointless as we have just completed Cobra in the Wakefield area.

In December we are also seeing new maintenance depots opening at Hull Botanic Gardens and Manchester Bank Street (the old International depot). Both of these will relieve space at current main depots.

 

[Iskra]

Hellifield isn't a particularly strategic location though.

It’s on the lines to Clitheroe (Manchester/Blackburn), Carnforth (for the WCML, Morecambe and Furness), Carlisle (WCML, Scotland, Cumbrian Coast, Tyne Valley), Skipton and Leeds. Those are all quite important lines and areas for Northern’s DMU fleet.

The whole reason Hellifield existed as a railway town is because of its strategic location! And that’s why WCRC still use it today. For Northern it would have relatively easy access to multiple lines, both the East Side and West Side, it’s quiet enough that shunt moves aren’t going to cause problems and there’s free capacity on the lines around it for ECS moves.

Remember with sidings they generally need to be near a Traincrew depot to keep taxi costs down.

Cobra and Crossley’s are a different kettle of fish as they are temporary sidings for a few units to stable to relieve space and capacity during the TRU works. Once this is complete (admittedly far off in the distant future) then they will probably become disused.

There is certainly no need for anything at Keighley as there is the decently sized complex of sidings at Skipton plus in future the aforementioned temporary location at Shipley, likewise Halifax would be pointless because Huddersfield is getting its own sidings complex to make up for the eventual loss of space at the station which will increase see a net increase in stabling capacity.

The suggestion of Hellifield to stable some DMU’s is also a no go. Currently only a single 3 car 158 is easily accommodated at Skipton per night (2 units on a Friday night). It would be using the space for the sake of it with no benefits (certainly cost wise).

Wrenthorpe sidings north of Wakefield would likewise be pointless as we have just completed Cobra in the Wakefield area.

In December we are also seeing new maintenance depots opening at Hull Botanic Gardens and Manchester Bank Street (the old International depot). Both of these will relieve space at current main depots.

Sorry, can you explain what Cobra is please?

 

[zwk500]

It’s on the lines to Clitheroe (Manchester/Blackburn), Carnforth (for the WCML, Morecambe and Furness), Carlisle (WCML, Scotland, Cumbrian Coast, Tyne Valley), Skipton and Leeds. Those are all quite important lines and areas for Northern’s DMU fleet.

The whole reason Hellifield existed as a railway town is because of its strategic location! And that’s why WCRC still use it today. For Northern it would have relatively easy access to multiple lines, both the East Side and West Side, it’s quiet enough that shunt moves aren’t going to cause problems and there’s free capacity on the lines around it for ECS moves.

Hellifield was strategic when it was the meeting place of different railway companies on the way to Scotland. WCRC use it now because its a backwater station with infrastructure left over not too far from their base at Carnforth.

 

[Neptune]

It’s on the lines to Clitheroe (Manchester/Blackburn), Carnforth (for the WCML, Morecambe and Furness), Carlisle (WCML, Scotland, Cumbrian Coast, Tyne Valley), Skipton and Leeds. Those are all quite important lines and areas for Northern’s DMU fleet.

But as I said, the only units that stable anywhere near Hellifield are adequately catered for at Skipton where there is a Traincrew depot. It’s only 1 unit or 2 on a Friday night.

The Dalesrail service is a seasonal SuO service. Not exactly a major player at Hellifield.

The Clitheroe line units are stabled quite comfortably at Newton Heath and Blackburn King Street.

Morecambe/Carlisle line units likewise at Leeds/NL, Skipton and Carlisle.

The whole reason Hellifield existed as a railway town is because of its strategic location! And that’s why WCRC still use it today. For Northern it would have relatively easy access to multiple lines, both the East Side and West Side, it’s quiet enough that shunt moves aren’t going to cause problems and there’s free capacity on the lines around it for ECS moves.

You will be needlessly increasing costs for the sake of history. It solves precisely nothing.

Sorry, can you explain what Cobra is please?

Cobra sidings at Wakefield mentioned in the OP and various other threads. They are 2 sidings adjacent to Wakefield Kirkgate station as additional stabling during TRU.

 

[Iskra]

Hellifield was strategic when it was the meeting place of different railway companies on the way to Scotland. WCRC use it now because its a backwater station with infrastructure left over not too far from their base at Carnforth.

It’s still on those same lines… and they have as good a service right now as they ever had.

They use it because of its location. You are coming across very negatively.

But as I said, the only units that stable anywhere near Hellifield are adequately catered for at Skipton where there is a Traincrew depot. It’s only 1 unit or 2 on a Friday night.

The Dalesrail service is a seasonal SuO service. Not exactly a major player at Hellifield.

The Clitheroe line units are stabled quite comfortably at Newton Heath and Blackburn King Street.

Morecambe/Carlisle line units likewise at Leeds/NL, Skipton and Carlisle.

You will be needlessly increasing costs for the sake of history. It solves precisely nothing.

Cobra sidings at Wakefield mentioned in the OP and various other threads. They are 2 sidings adjacent to Wakefield Kirkgate station as additional stabling during TRU.

I accept all those, well-reasoned and nicely put points.

 

[zwk500]

It’s still on those same lines… and they have as good a service right now as they ever had.

But they have been overtaken in significance by other lines, even for Northern.

They use it because of its location.

Exactly, a quiet out of the way location where they can play trains without getting in Northern's way.

You are coming across very negatively.

If I am it might be in response to your incredibly patronising (and now rather ironic) comment on another thread that I 'clearly do not understand the UK rail network'.

 

[Iskra]

But they have been overtaken in significance by other lines, even for Northern.

Exactly, a quiet out of the way location where they can play trains without getting in Northern's way.

If I am it might be in response to your incredibly patronising (and now rather ironic) comment on another thread that I 'clearly do not understand the UK rail network'.

You do realise this is the speculative section? Where people post speculative ideas. If you can’t handle a bit of liberal, crayonista thought, you might want to stop reading and being overly-critical of every suggestion made. If people don’t suggest things in life, we don’t make any progress.

I’m at a point that I’ve pressed the ignore button on you- the first time that I’ve used it in a long time, as you are sapping the enjoyment from this section of the forum. Might I suggest you do likewise to me, and we’ll both exist happily ever after

 

[xotGD]

Hasn't there been talk of a new depot at Thornaby to cater for hydrogen powered units?

 

[Killingworth]

1. Where is space needed?
2. How much?
3. Permanent or temporary?
4. What space is available?
5. Is it easily accessed by trains?
6. Is it easily accessed by crews and any support services?
7. How much would it cost for tracks, points and signalling?
8. How long would it take to make it operational?
9. Who's going to prepare and promote a business case?

I see long grass and saplings taking over potentially useful space.

 

[Neptune]

Hasn't there been talk of a new depot at Thornaby to cater for hydrogen powered units?

That’s gone very quiet in recent times.

1. Where is space needed?
2. How much?
3. Permanent or temporary?
4. What space is available?
5. Is it easily accessed by trains?
6. Is it easily accessed by crews and any support services?
7. How much would it cost for tracks, points and signalling?
8. How long would it take to make it operational?
9. Who's going to prepare and promote a business case?

I see long grass and saplings taking over potentially useful space.

I think the OP has looked at the additional temporary sidings at Cobra and Crossleys, added 2+2 and got 5 in the assumption that Northern suddenly need loads of extra space. These are just temporary TRU sidings for when access to permanent depots is limited/blocked.

The original post doesn't include the more permanent solutions that are currently happening which I have mentioned upthread. These add permanent capacity such as at Hull BG, Manchester Bank Street (both Dec 22) and Huddersfield Fartown sidings (further into the future).

Space was relieved at NL by EMR vacating the site and a reduction in LNER trains stabling there too with the opening of Doncaster. Hopefully when the 91+mk4 sets get replaced it will add further space.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Halifax would be pointless because Huddersfield is getting its own sidings complex to make up for the eventual loss of space at the station which will see a net increase in stabling capacity.

The problem with this reasoning is that Huddersfield won't be getting the new sidings until after the station upgrade is complete, because the site for the sidings is earmarked to be used for a temporary station and bus transfer point.

There are also a few issues with Healey Mills, though not insurmountable. The site is basically a jungle now, so clearance would be expensive and road access isn't particularly great.

Space was relieved at NL by EMR vacating the site and a reduction in LNER trains stabling there too with the opening of Doncaster. Hopefully when the 91+mk4 sets get replaced it will add further space.

That won't help during the period that Neville Hill is inaccessible.

 

[Neptune]

The problem with this reasoning is that Huddersfield won't be getting the new sidings until after the station upgrade is complete, because the site for the sidings is earmarked to be used for a temporary station and bus transfer point.

Do they need extra capacity at Huddersfield before then?

That won't help during the period that Neville Hill is inaccessible.

Exactly why Cobra and Crossleys have been acquired.

Not sure what the enthusiasts on here know that Northern’s planners don’t with regards stabling.

 

[zwk500]

Do they need extra capacity at Huddersfield before then?

Exactly why Cobra and Crossleys have been acquired.

Not sure what the enthusiasts on here know that Northern’s planners don’t with regards stabling.

And I get accused of being a downer!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do they need extra capacity at Huddersfield before then?

Exactly why Cobra and Crossleys have been acquired.

Not sure what the enthusiasts on here know that Northern’s planners don’t with regards stabling.

I think the thread is slightly at cross-purposes. There are two reasons that additional sidings are needed, one temporary and the other permanent.

Whilst NL is cut off, temporary storage is needed- Crossleys and Cobra cover this, assuming that those sites alone will have enough capacity.

Then there's additional capacity required for the improved service after the upgrade, plus replacement for the sidings lost at Huddersfield to the new platforms.

If however additional space is needed to cover Neville Hill, the new depot/sidings at Huddersfield cannot be the solution because the site won't be available until after Huddersfield is upgraded.

 

[class 9]

Neville Hill up side.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The press release, linked at the outset talks about access to Holbeck being unavailable, rather than Neville Hill.

The COBRA sidings previously handled a wide variety of rail freight – from coal and steel to spring water and household waste – but have been out of use for several years. Now, they will play a vital role stabling Northern’s train fleet overnight when essential Transpennine Route Upgrade work will restrict access in and out of their Holbeck depot in Leeds.