Where does the WCML south, become north?

[Russel]

Seen more than a few references to the WCML south on here over the years, on the way into Euston this morning it got me thinking, where does the WCML south become the WCML north?

Is it actually defined by Network Rail, or it is just assumed to be somewhere around Crewe?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Network Rail's page about the route says London - Crewe, but the Sectional Appendices switch from LNW South to North between Lichfield Trent Valley and Rugeley Trent Valley.

 

[The Planner]

Seen more than a few references to the WCML south on here over the years, on the way into Euston this morning it got me thinking, where does the WCML south become the WCML north?

Is it actually defined by Network Rail, or it is just assumed to be somewhere around Crewe?

Depends who you ask. Its either at the old junction at Armitage, or at Madeley. It was always Madeley in train planning.

 

[Mag_seven]

Depends on the context - as @The Planner notes the Train Planning definition may differ from say the Network Rail Maintenance definition or a TOCs definition or your own definition! My own personal definition is Weaver Jn because that's where the 1974 electrification structures start! Purists might argue that its exactly half way between London and Glasgow i.e. round about 200 miles from London / Glasgow.

 

[jfollows]

Network Rail's page about the route says London - Crewe, but the Sectional Appendices switch from LNW South to North between Lichfield Trent Valley and Rugeley Trent Valley.

It's a moving feast though - the split used to be at Crewe. Obviously what's done today is more appropriate than what was done in 1960, but to me Crewe is a more obvious split point. The advantage with the current split is that it's more obvious which section Colwich-Cheadle Hulme would be in.

 

[The Planner]

It's a moving feast though - the split used to be at Crewe. Obviously what's done today is more appropriate than what was done in 1960, but to me Crewe is a more obvious split point. The advantage with the current split is that it's more obvious which section Colwich-Cheadle Hulme would be in.

The split on that route is Mow Cop level crossing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Sectional Appendix currently give the location of the old Armitage Jn as the split, which also marked the then end of Rugby ROC control area.
The next stretch was controlled from Stoke, but that has now also migrated to Rugby, whose control now goes to (I think) Betley Road, south of Crewe.
Signalling changes at Crewe are in hand which will change things again.
In the end the boundary will probably be that between Rugby and Manchester ROC control areas, wherever that turns out to be.
At least there will be no HS2 complications now (!)
The half-way point on the WCML at 200 miles is close to Euxton Jn, but then Scotland is separate so half-way to Gretna is just south of Crewe.

Not to forget that NR's Eastern Region starts as soon as you turn off the WCML to the east at Stoke or Nuneaton.
And the "Western" starts within shouting distance of Crewe*, towards Shrewsbury.

* actually at Willaston, MP 2.60, beyond which is controlled 135 rail miles away, from Cardiff.

 

[The Planner]

The Sectional Appendix currently give the location of the old Armitage Jn as the split, which also marked the then end of Rugby ROC control area.
The next stretch was controlled from Stoke, but that has now also migrated to Rugby, whose control now goes to (I think) Betley Road, south of Crewe.
Signalling changes at Crewe are in hand which will change things again.
In the end the boundary will probably be that between Rugby and Manchester ROC control areas, wherever that turns out to be.

Betley Road. Basford Hall goes into Manchester ROC over Christmas. Stoke still controls from Hixon.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The split on that route is Mow Cop level crossing.

Mow Cops only claim to fame!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the context - as @The Planner notes the Train Planning definition may differ from say the Network Rail Maintenance definition or a TOCs definition or your own definition! My own personal definition is Weaver Jn because that's where the 1974 electrification structures start! Purists might argue that its exactly half way between London and Glasgow i.e. round about 200 miles from London / Glasgow.

Very often on here "south WCML" comes up specifically in the context of south of Rugby, i.e. the busy bit, and "north WCML" in the context of north of Crewe or even Preston where it's 2 track and freight causes major constraints. Neither of those are official or intended to be so, though.

 

[Mag_seven]

or even Preston where it's 2 track and freight causes major constraints.

Preston is good shout because its roughly half way and it remains the main train crew changeover location for a London-Glasgow service.

 

[snowball]

Mow Cops only claim to fame!

In railway terms, maybe, but Mow Cop as a place has several claims to fame.

 

[Beebman]

In railway terms, maybe, but Mow Cop as a place has several claims to fame.

Included in the lyrics to Flanders and Swann's 'Slow Train':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_Train_(Flanders_and_Swann_song)

 

[Jamesrob637]

Preston is good shout because its roughly half way and it remains the main train crew changeover location for a London-Glasgow service.

It's a bit longer in distance London-Preston than Preston-Glasgow, but takes around the same time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit longer in distance London-Preston than Preston-Glasgow, but takes around the same time.

Certainly I'd say the line changes substantially in character north of Preston where it's much more rural against south of Crewe and particuarly Rugby where it's 4-tracked and very busy. The bit between Crewe and Preston is a sort of odd hybrid, very similar in a way (if a bit more scenic) to the bit through the West Midlands.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Certainly I'd say the line changes substantially in character north of Preston where it's much more rural against south of Crewe and particuarly Rugby where it's 4-tracked and very busy. The bit between Crewe and Preston is a sort of odd hybrid, very similar in a way (if a bit more scenic) to the bit through the West Midlands.

I like the run from Stafford to Crewe, then watching it become a little more industrial towards Warrington. Some nice bits of the line even there though.

Shall we call London-Crewe WCML Sud, Crewe-Preston WCML Middle and Preston-Glasgow WCML Nord?!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

My own personal definition is Weaver Jn because that's where the 1974 electrification structures start! Purists might argue that its exactly half way between London and Glasgow i.e. round about 200 miles from London / Glasgow.

That has always been my personal definition too.

Preston is good shout because its roughly half way and it remains the main train crew changeover location for a London-Glasgow service.

My biased opinion agrees as a good shout too as my home station when in the UK is Preston.

From my mileage recording/haulage days, I remember
Euston to Crewe at 158 miles
Euston to Preston at 209 miles
Euston to Glasgow C at 401.

So Preston with Crewe changes etc seems logical.

When congested infrastructure is talked about north of Preston often crops up in papers/journals/magazines etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like the run from Stafford to Crewe, then watching it become a little more industrial towards Warrington. Some nice bits of the line even there though.

Shall we call London-Crewe WCML Sud, Crewe-Preston WCML Middle and Preston-Glasgow WCML Nord?!

I'm still of the view that a tourist that isn't in a hurry would be better served going Euston-Edinburgh via Birmingham (ideally in Standard Premium) than via the ECML - that route in particular really does give you all the scenery the UK has to offer, good and bad. North of Preston it starts to almost look like Swiss scenery. (And I've finally had a walk in the Howgills so seen the other side of those same hills! )

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm still of the view that a tourist that isn't in a hurry would be better served going Euston-Edinburgh via Birmingham (ideally in Standard Premium) than via the ECML - that route in particular really does give you all the scenery the UK has to offer, good and bad. North of Preston it starts to almost look like Swiss scenery. (And I've finally had a walk in the Howgills so seen the other side of those same hills! )

The Lune Gorge in particular still gives me chills - not quite as good as when it was behind a Class 87 but still fantastic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Lune Gorge in particular still gives me chills - not quite as good as when it was behind a Class 87 but still fantastic.

Took my breath away the first time I saw it as it was totally unexpected. I think it's one of the best pieces of railway scenery in the UK - I'd venture that it beats the S&C the other side of those hills because to me there's something just better about a proper fast mainline with spectacular views. I see it the same in Switzerland - the Goldenpass route might be nice, but I prefer zooming along at 160km/h down the side of Lake Geneva, it just feels more "proper" somehow.

I'd say it's a bit of a mini version of the Highland mainline in scenery terms. But if you wanted to do a scenic mainline railway tour in England there'd be little to beat Manchester-WCML-Carlisle-S&C-Leeds-TPE-Manchester, I reckon.

 

[thecrofter]

Seen more than a few references to the WCML south on here over the years, on the way into Euston this morning it got me thinking, where does the WCML south become the WCML north?

Is it actually defined by Network Rail, or it is just assumed to be somewhere around Crewe?

It varies between NR Asset Management disciplines. As far as Electrification is concerned it's Whitmore MPATS.

 

[Elecman]

The Weekly Operating notices have the split st Armitage

 

[The Planner]

The Weekly Operating notices have the split st Armitage

That is because the WON uses the line of route codes and not ELR (engineer line references) or anything else, as that is where MD101 becomes NW1001.

 

[Boodiggy]

NETWORK RAIL - West Coast South Route becomes North West Route at 154m30ch at Chorlton south of Basford Hall.
The Manc route is at Mow Cop as stated.

 

[778]

Do the branches off the main WCML such as the Rugby–Birmingham–Stafford line actually count as being part of the WCML even though they are not on the main route?

 

[The Planner]

Do the branches off the main WCML such as the Rugby–Birmingham–Stafford line actually count as being part of the WCML even though they are not on the main route?

Again, depends on who you speak to. Most of that part falls under the central route from Brandon up to Penkridge.

 

[duffield]

Do the branches off the main WCML such as the Rugby–Birmingham–Stafford line actually count as being part of the WCML even though they are not on the main route?

I'd say yes for Birmingham, because some of the London to Edinburgh/Glasgow trains go via this route, that makes it a full first-class part of the WCML for me. Opinions may vary though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not sure you can include the Scottish section of the WCML in this.
North of Quintinshill (MP 12.30 from Carlisle) the line is controlled from Cowlairs as part of the West of Scotland SC area.
Scotland is increasingly independent in Network Rail terms, and has said things like "no ETCS here".
Meanwhile the sections between Crewe and Carlisle are aiming to go ETCS in the next resignalling.
HS2 trains will be dominant in the middle section of the WCML (Handsacre-Manchester/Liverpool) but not in the northern or southern sections.
The technical spec for the northern section is undecided, I think, especially now HS2 Phase 2 has been binned.
There's also the conundrum of how HS2 will be controlled and managed - will it be part of NR/WCML or not? HS2/ICWC will be one TOC.
Rugby ROC can currently "see" 130 miles of WCML route from Watford Tunnel to Chorlton, south of Crewe.
When most fast traffic turns off at Handsacre, it will lose that view, unless control is integrated with HS2.

 

[The Planner]

There's also the conundrum of how HS2 will be controlled and managed - will it be part of NR/WCML or not? HS2/ICWC will be one TOC.
Rugby ROC can currently "see" 130 miles of WCML route from Watford Tunnel to Chorlton, south of Crewe.
When most fast traffic turns off at Handsacre, it will lose that view, unless control is integrated with HS2.

Rugby will just have a hand over to/from Washwood Heath, I don't see why its different to one box handing over to another?