Where is this?

[carlwebus]

Hi All

I think I may have asked this before (and lost the information) BUT

Anyone recognise the location of this BR Western Region King and train?

I have several photographs of Western locos at this location (all from a job lot I bought at a local auction).

One is of a County 4-6-0 so they are probably all BR times.....

 

[Gloster]

Frankly, you are going to have trouble with this one. The only possibly helpful detail is the fence to the right. Do any of the others show a headcode, as this might help (and that is a longshot)?

As the loco is still in GWR livery, it is probably late 1940s. (Somewhere there is probably someone who can identify the actual loco by tiny details and give its repainting date, but not me.)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well... we can narrow it down a fair bit simply from the fact it's a King - which could only run on a limited number of routes - and it's on a two track stretch; the angle of the light also gives a few clues.

I'd be inclined to think anywhere along the Berks and Hants or north of Didcot towards Banbury are the likliest locations.

 

[Irascible]

Some fairly old stock for a late 40s GWR express, I'd have thought.

 

[Gloster]

As far as I can see, at that time the Kings were limited to Plymouth via Westbury, Bristol via Bath or Badminton and on to Taunton, and Wolverhampton via Risborough. They did later add a few lines.

 

[SargeNpton]

Well... we can narrow it down a fair bit simply from the fact it's a King - which could only run on a limited number of routes - and it's on a two track stretch; the angle of the light also gives a few clues.

I'd be inclined to think anywhere along the Berks and Hants or north of Didcot towards Banbury are the likliest locations.

And narrow it down a bit further that it's in the range 6020-6029, as the first three digits are visible at the front. Did any of those have any distinguishing features?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And narrow it down a bit further that it's in the range 6020-6029, as the first three digits are visible at the front. Did any of those have any distinguishing features?

I meant as in narrowing down the location...

 

[edwin_m]

There is one signal wire in front of the nearest rail, so it's between the distant and the first stop signal of some signal box.

The wide gap between the track and the fence, with no evidence of an abandoned formation, is also unusual. Is there anywhere that was later widened to four tracks or (more likely for post-WW2) intended to be but never done?

The sun appears to be at around 90 degrees to the right and fairly high in the sky (going by the shadow of the telegraph pole), so the train is probably heading west.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is one signal wire in front of the nearest rail, so it's between the distant and the first stop signal of some signal box.

The wide gap between the track and the fence, with no evidence of an abandoned formation, is also unusual. Is there anywhere that was later widened to four tracks or (more likely for post-WW2) intended to be but never done?

Or it's taken from the end of a platform?

...which might also fit in with being between a distant and a home signal?

There's also obvious signs of a ditch in that space, which could be another reason for the width of the formation?

@carlwebus - please could you post some of the other pictures from the same location, especially if they face the other direction?

 

[edwin_m]

Or it's taken from the end of a platform?

...which might also fit in with being between a distant and a home signal?

There's also obvious signs of a ditch in that space, which could be another reason for the width of the formation?

@carlwebus - please could you post some of the other pictures from the same location, especially if they face the other direction?

The camera is only just above rail level, so it's unlikely to have been taken from a platform. It looks to me as if it was someone leaning over the fence, or possibly there is a footpath crossing here accessed by a gate that it out of shot.

Very unlikely there would be a station between the distant and the home signal - "station limits" were so named for a reason. Possibly there were more signal wires on the far side, but as far as I know they were generally kept to one side and run under the track to reach any signals on the other.

The ditch could explain the fence position, but it still seems rather a wide strip of land if that's the reason. It could suggest somewhere low-lying and boggy, perhaps east of Cogload Junction on either route?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The ditch could explain the fence position, but it still seems rather a wide strip of land if that's the reason. It could suggest somewhere low-lying and boggy, perhaps east of Cogload Junction on either route?

Makes sense to me - the eastern end of the Berks and Hants between Thatcham and Southcote Junction would also fit.

I'd like to see more of that background... is there a tunnel or just a bridge... or is that even just higher land which the railway runs parallel to?

 

[edwin_m]

Makes sense to me - the eastern end of the Berks and Hants between Thatcham and Southcote Junction would also fit.

I'd like to see more of that background... is there a tunnel or just a bridge... or is that even just higher land which the railway runs parallel to?

It's unlikely to be a tunnel unless it's one of those "unnecessary" ones with minimal ground cover, just built to satisfy a local landowner. Perhaps some of the other photos show this more clearly, not obscured by smoke?

 

[norbitonflyer]

And narrow it down a bit further that it's in the range 6020-6029, as the first three digits are visible at the front. Did any of those have any distinguishing features?

Difficult to read the nameplate from that angle, but the locomotives in that number range were named (in reverse chronological order) after Kings Henry IV to Richard I, then George VI and Edward VIII (the last two having been renamed in 1936 from Kings Henry II and Stephen). I don't think the resolution of the picture is good enough to make out how many characters are on the nameplate, or whether there is a regnal number)

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The wide gap between the track and the fence, with no evidence of an abandoned formation, is also unusual

Think that ditch is a culvert running parallel to the track. In the distance there seems to be a low level brick arch across same at right angles to the track. Looks like a (possible?) rail over rail bridge crossing over the line the train is on, and behind it (higher level flat embankment to right?) and at least one telegraph pole mounted atop that higher elevation. Left me thinking (at first) where S&D crossed the WR near Cole/Bruton, but the line in this photo is too straight for Bruton at that location, which has noticeable reverse curves.

 

[Gloster]

Think that ditch is a culvert running parallel to the track. In the distance there seems to be a low level brick arch across same at right angles to the track. Looks like a (possible?) rail over rail bridge crossing over the line the train is on, and behind it (higher level flat embankment to right?) and at least one telegraph pole mounted atop that higher elevation. Left me thinking (at first) where S&D crossed the WR near Cole/Bruton, but the line in this photo is too straight for Bruton at that location, which has noticeable reverse curves.

A look at various possibilities cuts most of them out, but there is at least a faint resemblance to where the S&D’s Bridgwater branch crossed the GWR. Unfortunately, I can’t even get a streetview view anywhere close, so this is no more than a vague possibility.

 

[Cowley]

I initially wondered if it was somewhere around Exminster? But there’s really not much to go on!

 

[randyrippley]

Dunno if it helps but...

first it looks single track to me. Did Kings run on any single track routes, maybe as diversion?

second that big tree in the right of the photo looks like a lime, which would suggest that field is maybe former parkland??
the oaks and willows in the left side of the photo look like they're arranged around a small pond? Given the raised nature of the line is it on land that tend to flood? It's very flat looking, except for the overbridge in the background

 

[Gloster]

I don’t think that it would be single track. As far as I am aware the only places with single track used by Kings were at the junctions at Ashendon, Aynho and Cogload, plus the bit north of Saunderton, and I don’t think it is any of these.

 

[Cowley]

I don’t think that it would be single track. As far as I am aware the only places with single track used by Kings were at the junctions at Ashendon, Aynho and Cogload, plus the bit north of Saunderton, and I don’t think it is any of these.

It looks like it’s double track to me. The camera angle is low but I’m sure you can see the other rails behind?

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I thought it looked single track and wondered about the line through Devizes. Were Kings allowed that way, maybe on diversions?

 

[Bevan Price]

Frankly, you are going to have trouble with this one. The only possibly helpful detail is the fence to the right. Do any of the others show a headcode, as this might help (and that is a longshot)?

As the loco is still in GWR livery, it is probably late 1940s. (Somewhere there is probably someone who can identify the actual loco by tiny details and give its repainting date, but not me.)

In the absence of any Hawksworth coaches, I would suggest a date of 1930s or early 1940s is perhaps feasible, unless you are certain that the "County" photo was taken on the same day as this King photo.

Sorry, cannot help with location,

There is one signal wire in front of the nearest rail, so it's between the distant and the first stop signal of some signal box.

The wide gap between the track and the fence, with no evidence of an abandoned formation, is also unusual. Is there anywhere that was later widened to four tracks or (more likely for post-WW2) intended to be but never done?

The sun appears to be at around 90 degrees to the right and fairly high in the sky (going by the shadow of the telegraph pole), so the train is probably heading west.

The wide gap probably means that this was built as a broad gauge section of railway.

 

[Gloster]

I thought it looked single track and wondered about the line through Devizes. Were Kings allowed that way, maybe on diversions?

I don’t think so, at least not in the early years of BR. They were allowed at 30 mph later on, but only in emergency.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Savernake on the Berks and Hants with the Kennet & Avon Canal out of shot to the right?

 

[Rescars]

In the absence of any Hawksworth coaches, I would suggest a date of 1930s or early 1940s is perhaps feasible, unless you are certain that the "County" photo was taken on the same day as this King photo.

The tender appears to be marked "G coat of arms W" rather than "Great coat of arms Western". Am I correct in thinking this suggests 1940s rather than 1930s.

And narrow it down a bit further that it's in the range 6020-6029, as the first three digits are visible at the front. Did any of those have any distinguishing features?

Does anyone have shed allocation details for 602x locos? This may give a hint, at least as far as the general route is concerned (i.e. West Midlands or West Country)

Do any of the other photos in the collection give any clues about the photographer's favourite locations? It is quite likely that the photographer took several shots at the same location or on the same trip.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Interesting that the pole route appears to climb over whatever is in the background. My initial thought was on the up near Cotfield (betwixt Exminster and City Basin Jct) but Im not committing to that.

 

[Andy873]

Posting some more photos would be helpful please.

What I can add / or confirm is that:

1. The engine is named.
2. The tender does look to have GWR on it.
3. It's an express train due to the two lamps in that position at the front of the engine.
4. The nearest telegraph pole looks to have at least 16 insulators for the wires.
5. The train has come round a curve.
6. The track is definitely double.
7. There is countryside either side of the tracks.
8. There are several piles of gravel by the line side.
9. Some trees don't appear to have too many leaves on them.

I would agree with @Gloster and others that it's probably late 1940's.

The bridge (if that's what it is) - The right hand exit from the bridge (bridge level) doesn't appear to be dipping down, looks like it continues level, possibly a main road or even another line going over this one?

 

[Snow1964]

The telegraph poles do appear to climb to take wires over the road bridge in the background. The style of bridge makes me think it is the line between Westbury and Castle Cary.

Somewhere like this, but looking back towards the road bridge

Google Maps

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www.google.co.uk

 

[Harvester]

The tender appears to be marked "G coat of arms W" rather than "Great coat of arms Western". Am I correct in thinking this suggests 1940s rather than 1930s.

Does anyone have shed allocation details for 602x locos? This may give a hint, at least as far as the general route is concerned (i.e. West Midlands or West Country)

On 1st Jan 1948 all the 602x locos were allocated to either Plymouth (Laira), Newton Abbot or Old Oak Common so would have been regulars over the Berks and Hants line. By the early 1950s when the first BR tender crests appeared, only 6020 had been transferred elsewhere (to Stafford Road in Jan 1949).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

A look at various possibilities cuts most of them out, but there is at least a faint resemblance to where the S&D’s Bridgwater branch crossed the GWR. Unfortunately, I can’t even get a streetview view anywhere close, so this is no more than a vague possibility.

Must admit I had forgotten about the Bridgewater branch. Under photographed/forgotten by many photographers perhaps and closed early 50's, so hard to find that many pics, particularly around the area where it crossed the GWR. Back to my Cole/Bruton theory, copyright etc prevents me posting a pic from a book here, but if anyone has access to the Bradford Barton 'Steam on the Somerset and Dorset' (1975), there is a fine double page pic on pages 40/41, taken looking UP line from the Down cess, a matter of yards country side of the S&D overbridge (7F 53805) is going over the top heading towards Bath, and above it's tender is a telegraph pole with 6 arms/24 pots, matching as far as I can tell, the high one above the overbridge in the OP's image of the King 602x. In this Bradford Barton pic, a Castle (preserved 7029 no less) is on an UP GW service and about to pass under the bridge, the driver giving a 'wave' (could be the two fingered kind looking closely....!) to one of the 7F's crew, who is just standing looking down at the Castle. One of those 'moment's' caught on camera in a split second.

The OP's image (may?) have been taken from the same cess, but a couple of hundred yards in rear of the camera position in the Bradford Barton photo. Wish I could add it here, but better not.

PS to my previous post: looking again at G-Earth of the area around Cole/Bruton, I am certain this is NOT the location of the OP's image. Had it been so (as I touched on originally) the King and its train would be on a very gentle right hand curve at this point, whereas in the OPs pic, the train is on the straight and narrow so to speak.

 

[Irascible]

You can see a rail behind the wheels of the locomotive, definitely not single track. That bridge looks square rather than an arch? or at least it's not much of an arch. The first coach looks like it might have the GWR button, although the tender is definitely G-crest-W - given it's older stock, may be a relief train? Based on the fairly low exhaust & the lifted safety valves the train seems to be coasting ( or braking ) - there's steam from the injector ( I think ) but that could just be leaking too. The steam heat on the coaches seems to be leaking like sieves

Possibly immediately north of Exminster. Angles are a bit wierd for the light though.