Yes, why not? Derby’s the long way round and already has 4tph to Sheffield. People can chanhe trains, not everywhere can have a direct service to everywhere!
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Where should the third fast train on the Hope Valley go?
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Killingworth
Established Member
As a user of the line primarily between Sheffield and Manchester I'd favour a second semi-fast service between the two without bolting on any delaying extra legs. The present services are unreliable, except insofar as you can guarantee that almost every train will be late, the doubt is as to by how much; See Recent Train Times Statistics over the last 12 weeks
Originally the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme was to provide for 4 fast trains an our plus the stopper and freight. That was cut back and the Chinley loop was taken out of the scheme. The understanding seems to be that it was all very well improving capacity down the Hope Valley but there wasn't enough capacity from there through Hazel Grove and Stockport or through Marple to Piccadilly, nor into Sheffield.
I heard talk of the Norwich - Liverpool avoiding Piccadilly to run through Victoria. That wouldn't be popular with commuters heading for Manchester University.
In the early consultation days possible final destinations were suggested. Clearly the world has moved on since then but I heard Chester, Blackpool and Preston suggested on the west side and Leeds, Hull and Lincoln to the east.
Speaking from Sheffield I can see advantages for a connection at Preston to go north and to connect to Blackpool and the Cumbrian services. Going on to Blackpool would add more potential delays. I couldn't see much in favour of Chester, but others may.
To the east Leeds would be my favourite if the train stopped at Hope and at Dore. Leeds is the third most popular commuter destination from Dore despite poor connections. A stop at Meadowhall would be welcomed by many. That would also be achieved on a service towards Hull (and possibly to Lincoln if routed via Doncaster) which would give Doncaster interchange options.
Where people go now and where they would go if the service were provided is always a tricky one to predict. From observations I'd suggest Lincoln to Sheffield loadings aren't high enough to need another hourly train. The same probably goes for Sheffield to Hull, with the caveat that the Sheffield to Doncaster leg can be busy and the Doncaster-Hull section is very useful when Hull Trains are having difficulty. Sheffield-Leeds is a route that needs more capacity - although longer trains might be a more practical answer!
I have changed at Piccadilly for the Lakes, Blackpool, Preston and Southport so for me Preston would be my favourite to the west.
In the real world of modern railways the difficulty is capacity issues on 2 tracks out of Sheffield to the north and east, and again at Doncaster to cross the ECML. The Sheaf Valley 2 tracks (that used to be 4 and may become 3 for HST) are another bottleneck. I've already referred to the difficulties into Piccadilly.
BTW, HS2 work should commence in the Sheaf Valley by late 2020s. NPR should be working to the north and east of Sheffield and then work for HS2 into Leeds and Manchester. The Leeds to Manchester improvement work will also add complexity to operations. Maybe by 2040 we'll have a working network that has bedded down and all the new services can run to time and in comfort.
Originally the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme was to provide for 4 fast trains an our plus the stopper and freight. That was cut back and the Chinley loop was taken out of the scheme. The understanding seems to be that it was all very well improving capacity down the Hope Valley but there wasn't enough capacity from there through Hazel Grove and Stockport or through Marple to Piccadilly, nor into Sheffield.
I heard talk of the Norwich - Liverpool avoiding Piccadilly to run through Victoria. That wouldn't be popular with commuters heading for Manchester University.
In the early consultation days possible final destinations were suggested. Clearly the world has moved on since then but I heard Chester, Blackpool and Preston suggested on the west side and Leeds, Hull and Lincoln to the east.
Speaking from Sheffield I can see advantages for a connection at Preston to go north and to connect to Blackpool and the Cumbrian services. Going on to Blackpool would add more potential delays. I couldn't see much in favour of Chester, but others may.
To the east Leeds would be my favourite if the train stopped at Hope and at Dore. Leeds is the third most popular commuter destination from Dore despite poor connections. A stop at Meadowhall would be welcomed by many. That would also be achieved on a service towards Hull (and possibly to Lincoln if routed via Doncaster) which would give Doncaster interchange options.
Where people go now and where they would go if the service were provided is always a tricky one to predict. From observations I'd suggest Lincoln to Sheffield loadings aren't high enough to need another hourly train. The same probably goes for Sheffield to Hull, with the caveat that the Sheffield to Doncaster leg can be busy and the Doncaster-Hull section is very useful when Hull Trains are having difficulty. Sheffield-Leeds is a route that needs more capacity - although longer trains might be a more practical answer!
I have changed at Piccadilly for the Lakes, Blackpool, Preston and Southport so for me Preston would be my favourite to the west.
In the real world of modern railways the difficulty is capacity issues on 2 tracks out of Sheffield to the north and east, and again at Doncaster to cross the ECML. The Sheaf Valley 2 tracks (that used to be 4 and may become 3 for HST) are another bottleneck. I've already referred to the difficulties into Piccadilly.
BTW, HS2 work should commence in the Sheaf Valley by late 2020s. NPR should be working to the north and east of Sheffield and then work for HS2 into Leeds and Manchester. The Leeds to Manchester improvement work will also add complexity to operations. Maybe by 2040 we'll have a working network that has bedded down and all the new services can run to time and in comfort.
Killingworth
Established Member
In order to use the apparently additional Hope Valley capacity any train is going to have to get through the Piccadilly area and Sheffield.
We know the East Midlands want to have a service to Manchester and Liverpool - so Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Derby-Leicester. Instead of to Manchester Airport, so not needing a new Castlefield path!
All hypothetical because the Hope Valley improvements won't be ready until 2023 and anything can happen by then
We know the East Midlands want to have a service to Manchester and Liverpool - so Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Derby-Leicester. Instead of to Manchester Airport, so not needing a new Castlefield path!
All hypothetical because the Hope Valley improvements won't be ready until 2023 and anything can happen by then
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