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Where would you electrify next?

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Ken H

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They have made you the fat controller of the UK rail network

They have chucked all plans for future electrification in the bin so you have a clean sheet

Where would you electrify next? And why

(Please play nicely and not just suggest your home line!)

You can assume that bi-modes are becoming available.

I would do Didcot-Oxford. Should be a simple job, its a busy line and its an extension to an electrified network
Also Leeds-York. get a start on trans pennine. No tunnels, hard bits at both ends done and a good chunk from Colton Jct to York already done. Additional benefit is electrified diversionary route from Doncaster to York.
 
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tiptoptaff

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Thingley Jcn to Bristol, and Filton Bank. Why? Because it's absurd it stops where it does, and the bank would then just be a bit of useful infill.
 

Mathew S

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Crewe - Holyhead; Chester - Warrington; Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury; Wrexham - Chester. That would (I think?) allow all of the West Coast Franchise services to be run by a common fleet of EMUs going forward.

I'd also do the Mid-Cheshire route as a diversion Manchester-Chester; and the Atherton, Southport, Kirkby, Calder Valley, and Stalybridge lines to reduce DMU commuter services around Manchester.
 

Aictos

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I would electrify the North Downs and the Marshline lines but using the existing 3rd rail electrification setup as there already exists a large amount of it at both ends so makes sense as infill schemes to do it as 3rd rail.

Once these two are completed I would look at electrifying Uckfield in order to remove DMUs from the South Central region with Basingstoke to Salisbury as a extension of the existing 3rd rail infrastructure.

In other parts of the UK I would also look at extending OHL from Crewe to Chester as a extension of the existing OHL infrastructure but also electrify Blackpool South to Colne/Accrington to Leeds via Bradford Interchange/Blackburn to Manchester Victoria/Leeds to Manchester via Huddersfield and Stalybridge and finally Leeds/York/Doncaster to Hull and branded as Northern PowerHouse which would work with the existing OHL infrastructure.

Ely to Peterborough/Peterborough to Birmingham via Leicester and Nuneaton would also be wired up with 4 car EMUs replacing existing 2 and 3 car DMUs.

Finally as to the mainlines: Kettering to Doncaster/Leeds via Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield, Bristol Parkway to Plymouth via Bristol Temple Meads with Doncaster/Leeds via Birmingham, Cardiff to Swansea, Exeter to Reading via Westbury, Marylebone to Worcester via Kidderminister/Oxford and finally Edinburgh to Dundee via Perth and Ladybank.

Not only would this make the UK more carbon friendly but you would get faster, longer and quieter trains as well as a large reduction in CO2 at terminus across the country.
 

Aictos

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I wouldn't electrify Marylebone to Amersham via Harrow due to running over 4th rail infrastructure so that would stay DMU.
 

AndyW33

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There are those who would pay good money to electrify Chris Grayling's office furniture...
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
From north to south:

Inverness to Aberdeen
Inverness to Dunblane
Aberdeen to Edinburgh
Perth to Ladybank
Thornton North and South Junctions to Inverkeithing via Dunfermline
Dunfermline to Alloa
Craigendoran Junction to Mallaig and Oban
Westerton to Cowlairs
Newcraighall to Tweedbank
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride and Carlisle via Kilmarnock
Newcastle to Carlisle
Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Hartlepool
Bishop Auckland to Saltburn
Middlesbrough to Battersby (tram wire similar to Wolverhampton - Oxley Depot)
Carlisle - Whitehaven
Oxenholme - Windermere
Carnforth to Barrow-in-Furness
Preston to Leeds via Bradford Interchange
Preston to Ormskirk
Bolton to Colne via Blackburn
Kirkham & Wesham to Blackpool South
York to Leeds, and Leeds to Selby
Leeds to Sheffield via Wakefield Kirkgate
Leeds to Guide Bridge via Huddersfield, plus Ravensthorpe to Knottingley via Wakefield Kirkgate, and Mirfield to Halifax/Hebden Bridge
Doncaster to Sheffield and Doncaster to Kingston upon Hull via both Selby and Goole
Doncaster to Scunthorpe
Sheffield to Stockport, plus Hazel Grove to Buxton
Sheffield to Nottingham via both Derby and Alfreton
Chinley to Manchester Piccadilly via both Bradbury and Hyde Central, plus the Rose Hill Marple stub
Southport to Bolton and Salford Crescent via both routes, plus Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate
Warrington Bank Quay to Chester via Frodsham
Helsby to Ellesmere Port
Bidston to Wrexham Central
Crewe to Llandudno and Holyhead
Chester to Wolverhampton via Wrexham and Shrewsbury
Stoke-on-Trent to Derby and Matlock
Shrewsbury to Cardiff via Hereford
Craven Arms to Knighton (using tram wire, although unsure if there is a tunnel before or after Knighton, plus saves having to change power modes on the main line assuming bi-modal trains are used)
All former Great Western Railway routes in the West Midlands
Oxford to Bedford Midland (and onwards to Cambridge if that section is ever rebuilt)
Peterborough to Ely
Norwich to Ely
Norwich to Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft
Ely to Stowmarket
Ipswich to Felixstowe and Lowestoft
Valley Lines Network in Wales
Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont to Swansea/Abertawe

Although a very lengthy post, in short, I would like most if not all routes electrified north of the M25, especially the east-west axis routes.
 

mmh

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Oxted to Uckfield and Ashford to Ore, with 3rd rail.

It'd do little or nothing for journey times, but remove these silly islands of diesel in an otherwise completely 3rd rail region and allow a reasonable number of sprinter compatible DMUs to be moved somewhere they'd be more valuable
 

Grimsby town

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I'm going try and be realistic and assume broadly the same number of lines can be electrified as are being currently.

I'll start with the NW electrification team in
CP6 and CP7
  • North TP line in full from York to Manchester including Manchester to Rochdale to provide an alternative for electric trains to Stalybridge and allow the tram train to Middleton to run of 25kv
  • Once this is done I'd move the teams on to Leeds - Harrogate - York and Manchester - Warrington Central - Liverpool (both these routes would have around 3 or 4tph that could go electric and are run within polluted urban areas and have high stopping patterns)
  • That would probably take up most of the next 10 years at current speeds but if not I'd look at a couple of easy infills such as Chester to Warrington or the Marple Line
Midland Mainline team:

  • Keep on going up the MML. Sheffield to Clay Cross needs electrifying anyway for HS2 and the current project does not end far from Leicester, Derby and Nottingham. Once done to Sheffield this would allow the Nottingham to Leicester Slow to be electric and Matlock to Newark to be 25kv and battery powered as well as the majority of London services to be electric.
  • Once this is done around 2025 keep going north. Electrify both routes from Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to Doncaster. This will need to be done if northern powerhouse rail is to happen and it would convert a number of commuter services to electric traction.
Midlands electrification team:
  • Work on electrifying all commuter lines in Brimingham. Start with the snow hill lines between Hereford and Stratford / Leamington and the Bromsgrove to Droitwich spa infill
  • If time allows look at doing Derby to Birmingham and Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton
South West Team
  • Finish the paused lines into Oxford and Bristol
  • Spend the rest of the time in CP6 and 7 electrifying extending the electrification off the GWML. Lines such as the Cardiff and Bristol commuter lines (all of the Metro West lines, Reading to Basingstoke, The Thames Valley branches, East West Rail all seem like good candidates)
This strategy hopefully removes the majority of diesels out of Britains major cities hopefully significantly reducing air pollution within railway stations. As mainly commuter services are focused on it should also reduce journey times and free up a good majority of DMUs to replace 150s, 156s and 158s.
 

trainmania100

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I'd electrify my garage and fit plug sockets and a ceiling light

Why not electrify the Reigate to Guildford then the victoria services could go to Guildford and perhaps reading
 

Bald Rick

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Oxted to Uckfield and Ashford to Ore, with 3rd rail.

It'd do little or nothing for journey times, but remove these silly islands of diesel in an otherwise completely 3rd rail region and allow a reasonable number of sprinter compatible DMUs to be moved somewhere they'd be more valuable

Electric trains very likely on the former in the next few years, in my opinion. No electrification, though.
 

Ken H

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Electric trains very likely on the former in the next few years, in my opinion. No electrification, though.
battery? would a battery train get from oxted to uckfield and back. And then would the batteries be fully charged between oxted and London and back, ready to go to Uckfield again?
Spose what I am asking is what proportion of electrified against non electrified would work for batteries.
 

Bald Rick

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battery? would a battery train get from oxted to uckfield and back. And then would the batteries be fully charged between oxted and London and back, ready to go to Uckfield again?
Spose what I am asking is what proportion of electrified against non electrified would work for batteries.

There’s battery trains running in Europe now that could do the distance. I reckon 5 years.
 

mmh

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I see no point in replacing a small fleet of diesel trains dedicated to unelectrified lines with a small fleet of battery trains dedicated to unelectrified lines.
 

route101

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Glasgow to Barrhead and EK . Anniesland to Glasgow Queen St via Maryhill
 

AlastairFraser

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Oxted to Uckfield and Ashford to Ore, with 3rd rail.

It'd do little or nothing for journey times, but remove these silly islands of diesel in an otherwise completely 3rd rail region and allow a reasonable number of sprinter compatible DMUs to be moved somewhere they'd be more valuable
Exactly, I don't understand why the ORR are so against extending third rail further to cover some small gaps and simplify some TOC's operations/cascade DMU's to relieve overcrowding elsewhere. What about Basingstoke-Exeter/Salisbury-Southampton via Romsey at the same time?
 

AlastairFraser

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They have made you the fat controller of the UK rail network

They have chucked all plans for future electrification in the bin so you have a clean sheet

Where would you electrify next? And why

(Please play nicely and not just suggest your home line!)

You can assume that bi-modes are becoming available.

I would do Didcot-Oxford. Should be a simple job, its a busy line and its an extension to an electrified network
Also Leeds-York. get a start on trans pennine. No tunnels, hard bits at both ends done and a good chunk from Colton Jct to York already done. Additional benefit is electrified diversionary route from Doncaster to York.
Plus Newbury to Bristol via Westbury and Bath. It could mean mean GWR electric commuter services are extended to Westbury and Oxford and the shuttles/extra IET stops don't have to happen at Pewsey/Bedwyn/Hungerford or DMU's can be cascaded elsewhere on the GWR network. Plus IET's could be run electric all the way to Westbury on the West Country trains and all the way should they have to divert Bristol IET's via the Berks and Hants.
 

AlastairFraser

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I wouldn't electrify Marylebone to Amersham via Harrow due to running over 4th rail infrastructure so that would stay DMU.
Just extend LU to Aylesbury-it would free up DMU's to cascade elsewhere and capacity so LU could run more semi-fasts on the Met. You could still run DMU's through Aylesbury to AVP and East West Rail DMU's to beyond or use 25kv OLE electrification for those sections by upgrading the Princes Risborough-Aylesbury branch. Would also free up Marylebone.
 

Chester1

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Crewe - Holyhead; Chester - Warrington; Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury; Wrexham - Chester. That would (I think?) allow all of the West Coast Franchise services to be run by a common fleet of EMUs going forward.

I'd also do the Mid-Cheshire route as a diversion Manchester-Chester; and the Atherton, Southport, Kirkby, Calder Valley, and Stalybridge lines to reduce DMU commuter services around Manchester.

Chester-Holyhead will not be wired for a generation because the business case is terrible. I think the BCR was 0.45 vs 5 for Crewe-Chester. I think the latter was based on excessively optimistic costs and would struggle to be justified using recent costs. If they can be reduced it is viable but not any further than Chester. Half the VT Voyagers are used on Birmingham to Scotland services anyway. Chester to Warrington would struggle to be justified because the existing and future Manchester services will run to unwired lines.
 

Ken H

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Chester-Holyhead will not be wired for a generation because the business case is terrible. I think the BCR was 0.45 vs 5 for Crewe-Chester. I think the latter was based on excessively optimistic costs and would struggle to be justified using recent costs. If they can be reduced it is viable but not any further than Chester. Half the VT Voyagers are used on Birmingham to Scotland services anyway. Chester to Warrington would struggle to be justified because the existing and future Manchester services will run to unwired lines.
chester to warrington would be good if they used bimodes. plenty of 319's and 321's to convert.
 

ian959

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Mostly fill in obvious bits and resurrect the stuff that should never have been cancelled/paused in the first place - in rough order:

  • Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury is a no brainer to me, upgrading a bunch of diesels under (current) wire services to all electric
  • All the Snow Hill lines as far as Leamington Spa/Stratford upon Avon/Kidderminster/Worcester
  • Welsh Valley lines in their entirety, no buggerising around such a massive environmental and passenger benefit, especially in some further extension and/or reinstatement can be done
  • Manchester - Crewe - Holyhead is a clear example of bugger the BCR, upgrading that removes a load of diesels under wire services, potentially converts a host of TfW services to electric traction, and releases a pile of Voyagers for strengthening Cross Country services (including shifting the Liverpool - Norwich service from East Midlands Trains), assuming replacement on at least a one for one basis by more 11 car Pendolinos or 10 car electric IEPs
  • All the remaining diesel passenger lines in the Greater Manchester area massive improvement in CO2 emissions
  • Leeds to Colton Junction as I still don't understand why this has never been done
  • Oxenholme - Windermere just dumb to drop this given it is so short a line creating a small diesel island in an electrified area
  • Cardiff - Swansea again just dumb to not do this and get rid of compromised bi-modes on what should be a fully electrified GWML/SWML intercity route
  • Didcot - Oxford - Banbury - Leamington Spa at least gets some of the Piccadilly Cross Country services fully under wires and a lot more GWR local services moved over to electric
  • Nottingham - Derby - Birmingham - Cheltenham Spa - Cardiff starts filling in the Cross Country network
  • Cheltenham Spa - Bristol - Exeter another Cross Country fill in
  • Doncaster - Sheffield - Derby more Cross Country fill in and filling in a busy diesel route
  • Doncaster - Hull well at least Hull Trains will be able to upgrade to some 8 car electric IEPs
  • Edinburgh - Aberdeen a lot of Scotrail and Cross Country diesel services moved over to electric with big benefits environmentally
  • Kettering - Derby/Nottingham finishing off the MML in a really useful manner
  • Sheffield - Leeds again finishing off the MML and filling in a busy diesel route
  • Bidston - Wrexham Central moved over to Merseyrail too so potentially running Liverpool - Wrexham without a change (750v DC electrification for network sake)
  • Newbury - Westbury - Taunton recovering some cancelled/paused stuff

Really start attacking infill projects:

  • Blackpool South line
  • Ipswich - Felixstowe
  • Ipswich - Lowestoft
  • Norwich - Lowestoft
  • Norwich - Yarmouth
  • Stowmarket - Ely
  • Norwich - Ely - Peterborough
  • Peterborough - Leicester
  • Grantham - Nottingham
  • Leicester - Birmingham
  • Marks Tey - Sudbury
  • Swansea - Carmarthen
  • Chester - Shrewsbury
  • Shrewsbury - Crewe
  • Shrewsbury - Hereford - Newport
 

Aictos

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From north to south:

Inverness to Aberdeen
Inverness to Dunblane
Craigendoran Junction to Mallaig and Oban
Norwich to Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft

Won't happen full stop as I don't believe the BCR stacks up so doesn't present a good business case for electrifying because if you wire up the West Highland then you might as well wire up the Far North lines which won't happen.

From north to south:
Crewe to Llandudno and Holyhead
Aberdeen to Edinburgh
Thornton North and South Junctions to Inverkeithing via Dunfermline
Newcraighall to Tweedbank
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride and Carlisle via Kilmarnock
Newcastle to Carlisle
Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Hartlepool
Bishop Auckland to Saltburn
Middlesbrough to Battersby (tram wire similar to Wolverhampton - Oxley Depot)
Carlisle - Whitehaven
Oxenholme - Windermere
Carnforth to Barrow-in-Furness
Preston to Leeds via Bradford Interchange
Preston to Ormskirk
Bolton to Colne via Blackburn
Kirkham & Wesham to Blackpool South
York to Leeds, and Leeds to Selby
Leeds to Sheffield via Wakefield Kirkgate
Leeds to Guide Bridge via Huddersfield, plus Ravensthorpe to Knottingley via Wakefield Kirkgate, and Mirfield to Halifax/Hebden Bridge
Doncaster to Sheffield and Doncaster to Kingston upon Hull via both Selby and Goole
Doncaster to Scunthorpe
Sheffield to Stockport, plus Hazel Grove to Buxton
Sheffield to Nottingham via both Derby and Alfreton
Chinley to Manchester Piccadilly via both Bradbury and Hyde Central, plus the Rose Hill Marple stub
Southport to Bolton and Salford Crescent via both routes, plus Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate
Warrington Bank Quay to Chester via Frodsham
Helsby to Ellesmere Port
Bidston to Wrexham Central
Chester to Wolverhampton via Wrexham and Shrewsbury
Stoke-on-Trent to Derby and Matlock
Shrewsbury to Cardiff via Hereford
Craven Arms to Knighton (using tram wire, although unsure if there is a tunnel before or after Knighton, plus saves having to change power modes on the main line assuming bi-modal trains are used)
All former Great Western Railway routes in the West Midlands
Oxford to Bedford Midland (and onwards to Cambridge if that section is ever rebuilt)
Peterborough to Ely
Norwich to Ely
Ely to Stowmarket
Ipswich to Felixstowe and Lowestoft
Valley Lines Network in Wales
Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont to Swansea/Abertawe

Although a very lengthy post, in short, I would like most if not all routes electrified north of the M25, especially the east-west axis routes.

Crewe to Llandudno and Holyhead won't get done in full as the BCR isn't high enough with a acceptable business case so likely only Crewe to Chester will be done.

Thornton North and South Junctions to Inverkeithing via Dunfermline should be done the same time as Edinburgh to Dundee via Kirkcaldy and Cupar as again I don't believe there's a good business case for wires from Dundee to Aberdeen unless it can be proven that it is.

Newcraighall to Tweedbank again the business case and BCR isn't high enough but electrifying this line would mean no DMUs in the Edinburgh/Central Belt area so makes sense as a infill but only if the existing infrastructure is used to the maximum possible.

York to Leeds, and Leeds to Selby seems good to do however why not also include York to Selby and onto to Hull that way which would make far more sense.

I note you state "Ely to Stowmarket and Norwich to Ely" so why not Cambridge to Ipswich too as that would mean Greater Anglia running EMUs on the local stoppers.

Ipswich to Felixstowe and Lowestoft will only be done to Felixstowe to allow for more electrically hauled freight, Lowestoft won't be done at all.

I also note you haven't included the Peterborough to Birmingham line via Leicester and Nuneaton which as I said in a earlier post would mean the end to 2 and 3 car DMUs and instead use 4 car EMUs on a 30 minute frequency on the line which would vastly cut down on overcrowding.
 

Bald Rick

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I see no point in replacing a small fleet of diesel trains dedicated to unelectrified lines with a small fleet of battery trains dedicated to unelectrified lines.

Why not if it makes the railway more efficient, and better train performance for passengers?
 

Ianno87

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Exactly, I don't understand why the ORR are so against extending third rail further to cover some small gaps and simplify some TOC's operations/cascade DMU's to relieve overcrowding elsewhere. What about Basingstoke-Exeter/Salisbury-Southampton via Romsey at the same time?

If battery trains are genuinely becoming mature technology for 'small' gaps (e.g. Uckfield) then that leavess more capital expenditure available for bigger stuff (e.g. rest of MML, XC, Chiltern, etc)
 

VT 390

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battery? would a battery train get from oxted to uckfield and back. And then would the batteries be fully charged between oxted and London and back, ready to go to Uckfield again?
Spose what I am asking is what proportion of electrified against non electrified would work for batteries.

I thought at one point they were going to put a short stretch of 3rd rail electrification around Uckfield station which would only be on when a train was over it allowing the train to charge whilst at Uckfield.
 

RichJF

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I thought at one point they were going to put a short stretch of 3rd rail electrification around Uckfield station which would only be on when a train was over it allowing the train to charge whilst at Uckfield.

I saw people suggesting 769s for Uckfield a few months back. Great idea however I don't think the 319 bodyshell fits through Oxted tunnel.

769 for Marshlink might work very well for an interim solution (say 10 years I guess).

For all that faffing with a tiny stretch of reactive 3rd rail it'd be easier just to do the whole route!
 
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