Where would you like to see Crossrail 3 go?

[Harshil]

Where would you like to see Crossrail 3 go? Both the path through London and the suburban national rail branches the service will take over. Also what frequency would you like to see of each service?

As an extension to the question above where would you like to see a Crossrail 4 go?

 

[The Ham]

My answer is a link to this map which shows what the tube network may look like in 50 years time (note not my work):

https://ukfree.tv/styles/images/2014/Tube2050/London Infrastucture Plan 2050 Transport v6.svg

(It shows CR3 as Twickenham/Wimbledon running to Waterloo, London Bridge, Canary Wharf before heading off to Rainham).

 

[Buggleskelly]

My answer is a link to this map which shows what the tube network may look like in 50 years time (note not my work):

https://ukfree.tv/styles/images/2014/Tube2050/London Infrastucture Plan 2050 Transport v6.svg

(It shows CR3 as Twickenham/Wimbledon running to Waterloo, London Bridge, Canary Wharf before heading off to Rainham).

However that's a less interesting answer than Liverpool/York.

What a mess that map is, especially in the central section. Never seen such a clutter of lines through zone 1, as if it's not bad enough already with CR1 being added to it by the end of the year. It will be as much of a confusing mess like New York's own underground system. Instead of adding extra CR lines in London, maybe cities north of London should get their own instead.

 

[tranzitjim]

Something that links Waterloo with Kings Cross?

Something that can replace a deep tube line or two?

 

[IainG81]

I think Crossrail 1 was thought of long ago basically linking Paddington with Liverpool Street. Crossrail 2 will probably happen. I'm less convinced of a need for more and more TFL owned stations. I like national rail i don't want everything to be roundels. I'd leave it at Crossrail 2.

 

[The Ham]

What a mess that map is, especially in the central section. Never seen such a clutter of lines through zone 1, as if it's not bad enough already with CR1 being added to it by the end of the year. It will be as much of a confusing mess like New York's own underground system. Instead of adding extra CR lines in London, maybe cities north of London should get their own instead.

I would suggest that TfL, when they produce the official version, would rescale parts of the map to make it clearer (for instance Central London is already at a larger scare than the outer stations and this may be changed again).

Alternatively there could be two maps required, one for Inner London and one for further out (much as NSE had for their services).

Also HS1 and HS2 lines are shown, which wouldn't be on the official version.

 

[The Ham]

Something that links Waterloo with Kings Cross?

Something that can replace a deep tube line or two?

Waterloo/Kings Cross would be useful now, but then how much of that would be lost after HS2 when longer distance travelers could be wanting to travel on HS2.

The suggestion on the link I posted previously links Waterloo (and several of the stations that currently run into it) with Canary Wharf would ease a lot of pressure of Waterloo and City and DLR.

It could also ease pressure on some other lines (Northern Line) and give other journeys an alternative that isn't much longer.

 

[urpert]

Victoria- Euston. Linking Watford DC lines with Orpington/Sevenoaks.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wherever Crossrial 3 goes, if it happens, it won't be under central London.

Victoria- Euston. Linking Watford DC lines with Orpington/Sevenoaks.

Err Crossrail 2 will (hopefully) go from Victoria to Euston.

No more space under Euston for any more new lines after that.

Crossrail 3 is not in any plans, and as and when it appears it is very unlikely to be in central London - there's not enough space underground.

 

[jopsuk]

ignoring the "can't stick more tunnels under London" brigade (who are probably right, but pshaw, shut up):

A rebuild of the Moorgate line would form the north section of the core. The north lines would be the services to Welwyn Garden City and on the Hertford Loop, plus a short but entirely underground branch under the old line from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace via Highgate. As part of this the Moorgate lines would gain underground platforms at Finsbury Park and the whole station would be comprehensively rebuilt. I'd look to route the resulting crossrail service along the east side, with replacement stations at Harringey, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace, with grade separate access to depots for Thameslink, Great Northern express and ECML trains.

As expensive as it would be, I'd continue the addtional tracks up the east side of the existing ECML all the way to Welwyn, with New Southgate configured to allow Crossrail 2 trains to share the platforms and tracks and also run to Welwyn. Only Crossrail services (CR2 and CR3) would then stop at any station from Welwyn to Finsbury Park; all Thameslink would run fast.

The tunnel would run through to the south east, and CR3 would take over all Metro services, with a large new terminus courtesy of some bulldozer action in Gravesend for CR1 and CR3, plus North Kent Coast express tracks from North Kent East Junction to Gravesend calling at Greenwich, Woolwich, Dartford and Ebbsfleet/Northfleet only.

Tunnel stations, as well as the existing Northern City Line ones, would be Surrey Quays, London Bridge and Bank.

 

[telstarbox]

Croydon - Lewisham - Deptford North* - Canary Wharf - the Chingford Branch - Waltham Abbey Parkway.**

This would relieve two DLR routes and provide a direct link from Croydon to Canary Wharf.

*Somewhere between Surrey Quays and Greenwich, to serve the Pepys Estate and Convoys Wharf.

** Just off the M25.

 

[DarloRich]

No more space under Euston for any more new lines after that.

Of course there is - we haven't hit magma yet

 

[urpert]

Wherever Crossrial 3 goes, if it happens, it won't be under central London.


Err Crossrail 2 will (hopefully) go from Victoria to Euston.

.

I though that was Waterloo - Lea Valley? Or have they changed their minds again?

 

[swt_passenger]

I though that was Waterloo - Lea Valley? Or have they changed their minds again?

Crossrail 2 takes its southern branches off the present SWR network that would previously run into Waterloo, but diverts after Clapham Junction and passes under Victoria on its way to the Lea Valley, via Central London.

So it is correct to say that CR2 'seriously impacts' on Waterloo, but it doesn't go there.

 

[mr_jrt]

Wherever Crossrial 3 goes, if it happens, it won't be under central London.


Err Crossrail 2 will (hopefully) go from Victoria to Euston.

No more space under Euston for any more new lines after that.

Crossrail 3 is not in any plans, and as and when it appears it is very unlikely to be in central London - there's not enough space underground.

Personally I think CR2 as proposed is trying to do too much in one go and will fail to do any of them well because of that. That's why I believe that CR2 should not serve Euston on a dogleg - let it serve KXStP as originally planned and let Euston be served by CR3. If HS2 relief is deemed more important, then build CR3 before CR2.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Wherever Crossrial 3 goes, if it happens, it won't be under central London.

Carmarthen - Aberystwyth?

 

[Bald Rick]

ignoring the "can't stick more tunnels under London" brigade (who are probably right, but pshaw, shut up):

A rebuild of the Moorgate line would form the north section of the core. The north lines would be the services to Welwyn Garden City and on the Hertford Loop, plus a short but entirely underground branch under the old line from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace via Highgate. As part of this the Moorgate lines would gain underground platforms at Finsbury Park and the whole station would be comprehensively rebuilt. I'd look to route the resulting crossrail service along the east side, with replacement stations at Harringey, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace, with grade separate access to depots for Thameslink, Great Northern express and ECML trains.

As expensive as it would be, I'd continue the addtional tracks up the east side of the existing ECML all the way to Welwyn, with New Southgate configured to allow Crossrail 2 trains to share the platforms and tracks and also run to Welwyn. Only Crossrail services (CR2 and CR3) would then stop at any station from Welwyn to Finsbury Park; all Thameslink would run fast.

The tunnel would run through to the south east, and CR3 would take over all Metro services, with a large new terminus courtesy of some bulldozer action in Gravesend for CR1 and CR3, plus North Kent Coast express tracks from North Kent East Junction to Gravesend calling at Greenwich, Woolwich, Dartford and Ebbsfleet/Northfleet only.

Tunnel stations, as well as the existing Northern City Line ones, would be Surrey Quays, London Bridge and Bank.

You'd be banned from London Reconnections if you suggested that!

Extending the NCL south has been looked at, not least by the Edwardians who actually started building it before the cash ran out when it was realised that the NCL itself wouldn't make money (and it didn't).

Not possible now of course, as the Crossrail tunnels are right behind the bufferstops. Therefore it needs new tunnels, which have to be underneath the Northern line, all the way back from north of Old St.

 

[jopsuk]

You'd be banned from London Reconnections if you suggested that!

Extending the NCL south has been looked at, not least by the Edwardians who actually started building it before the cash ran out when it was realised that the NCL itself wouldn't make money (and it didn't).

Not possible now of course, as the Crossrail tunnels are right behind the bufferstops. Therefore it needs new tunnels, which have to be underneath the Northern line, all the way back from north of Old St.

My suggestion is very much sponsored by Crayola

(Crossrail 4, under this plan, would take the Windsor lines and connect them to the LTS and Liverpool Street Overground services)

 

[Ianno87]

Let us focus on the current Crossrail it's far to soon to be talking about Crossrail 2 let alone 3

What's to focus on? The thing is basically pretty much built now!

 

[D365]

Let us focus on the current Crossrail it's far to soon to be talking about Crossrail 2 let alone 3

Who defines how soon is "to soon" to be talking about a multi-billion pound investment.

 

[Mikey C]

How about something to relieve Baker Street and Marylebone, taking the Aylesbury via Amersham services (and some Metropolitan line services) out of Baker Street and Marylebone, and leaving Marylebone room to cater for the growing number of people and services travelling in from the Chilterns?

 

[Frothy]

Crossrail 3 should be under Leeds, east-west

 

[bluenoxid]

Exactly linking those Northern Powerhouses of Pudsey and Seacroft.

 

[TheEdge]

I've often felt a high capacity underground service is needed between Cromer and Haddiscoe.

 

[B&I]

Crossrail 3 should be under Leeds, east-west

Very good candidate in terms of capacity relief, say west of Whitehall junction to about Neville Hill, but the necessity for a new underground station would add £££££££££££

 

[Waverley125]

The most recent RUS for Kent pointed out that Cannon St & Charing X are now basically at capacity. You can squeeze a bit more out of them with platform extensions, relocking and remodelling but otherwise there's nothing to be done without some painful changes elsewhere (e.g. closing St Johns).

Think the most sensible option is to take the stopping services fanning out SE of Lewisham (Sevenoaks via Orpington, Sevenoaks via Swanley, Gravesend via Bexley) with a portal at Hither Green. This then frees up a lot of capacity at Lewisham and on the approaches to LBG, with the only services being:

Dartford via Greenwich
Slade Green via Lewisham & Woolwich
Slade Green via Lewisham & Bexleyheath

Would also allow the tie-in to a massive rebuild of Lewisham to make it a fit interchange for SE London, taking in:

Bakerloo line extension to Hayes / Beckenham Junction
DLR extension to Bromley North
Direct covered bus interchange

On the other side of London, the sensible place would seem to be the lower end of the WCML, given the development opportunities up the far end where housing density is very low and connections into central London are poor. I'd have thought taking over the WCML slows from Willesden Junction north would give a reasonable level of service, calling Willesden Junc, Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Hatch End, Bushey, Watford Junc & all stations to MK Central / St Albans Abbey.

Central London route would need to look at relieving the Jubilee / Bakerloo lines. A Kilburn station connecting Kilburn, Kilburn High Rd & Kilburn Park would help development in NW, Baker Street is an obvious calling point as is TCR. From there I think you'd want to go to Charing X and then into SE London through E&C and Peckham, as these are the target growth areas in South London.

On a separate note, Crossrail 2 should take over the ECML slows north of Ally Pally through to Stevenage via Welwyn, with the NCL having the same via Hertford. The semi-fasts off of STP/KGX then call Finsbury Park & Stevenage only meaning they can run on the fasts in between.

 

[jhy44]

Crossrail is E-W, Thameslink is N-S, Crossrail 2 will be NE-SW, it's logical for Crossrail 3 to therefore be NW-SE.

I'd have a tunnel run London Bridge - Temple - TCR - Marylebone, and have it take over Chiltern Locals to Amersham & High Wycombe, and Southeastern Locals on the three Dartford lines (Greenwich, Welling, Sidcup)

London Bridge, and by association the SE network, is still poorly connected to Tottenham Court Road and North West London, this would address that, as well as freeing up some capacity at London Bridge / Cannon Street / Charing Cross for Kent Services.

As others have suggested, the WMCL could be linked in by extending the tunnel from Marylebone to Queens Park, to free up Euston Capacity, however with the Bakerloo line already running in tandem to the LO service, if High Frequency Crossrail services operated here, the Bakerloo beyond Queens Park would become somewhat redundant.

NW London is a very messy mess to try and rationalize.

 

[Altfish]

Carmarthen - Aberystwyth?

I was going to say Manchester - Sheffield

 

[HSTEd]

Is the bank end of the Waterloo and City line able to extend?

Could you use it to make a Waterloo to Docklands line?

 

[DimTim]

We are talking tunnels - then a further tunnel somewhere under the Pennines is required more than another in London!