Whether to appeal a Fixed Penalty Notice with Northern?

[kkh434]

I purchased an anytime day single with my 16-25 student railcard; ticket was activated before boarding and railcard is valid.

Because I was travelling before 10am and conductor pointed out that you cannot use railcard before this time.

Conductor declined to sell me a full fare and took my details to pass to Northern, saying I should notify them I am willing to purchase a full price ticket. Did not mention anything about me being subject to a penalty fare.

Northern have issued me with a fixed penalty notice (£100) with 14 days to pay.

Should I appeal?

Edit: I am also unclear why I have been issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice rather than a Penalty Fare which operate where I was travelling (Ilkley-Leeds).

 

[WesternLancer]

I purchased an anytime day single with my 16-25 student railcard; ticket was activated before boarding and railcard is valid.

Because I was travelling before 10am and conductor pointed out that you cannot use railcard before this time.

Conductor declined to sell me a full fare and took my details to pass to Northern, saying I should notify them I am willing to purchase a full price ticket. Did not mention anything about me being subject to a penalty fare.

Northern have issued me with a fixed penalty notice (£100) with 14 days to pay.

Should I appeal?

Edit: I am also unclear why I have been issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice rather than a Penalty Fare which operate where I was travelling (Ilkley-Leeds).

Hi - maybe an idea if easy for you to do to upload a copy of the notice you were issued with, with your personal details / ref numbers blanked out to help people give the best advice on your options.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I purchased an anytime day single with my 16-25 student railcard; ticket was activated before boarding and railcard is valid.

Edit: I am also unclear why I have been issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice rather than a Penalty Fare which operate where I was travelling (Ilkley-Leeds).

Your railcard might well have been in date, but possibly wouldn't have been valid for discounted travel before 10.00 a.m. (midweek) unless you were paying a minimum fare of £12.

If the journey you made was Ilkley -> Leeds, this is just £6.20 for an Anytime Day Single, or £4.05 if it's been 16-25 Railcard discounted.

P.S. How exactly did you buy / pay for / activate the discounted ticket? Did you select some random journey after 10 a.m. and then travel early before this time? What online system/app did you use?

The staff member you encountered may not be of the opinion that you've made an "honest" mistake here, and therefore considered that you didn't have a valid ticket.

 

[Haywain]

I am also unclear why I have been issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice rather than a Penalty Fare which operate where I was travelling (Ilkley-Leeds).

Almost certainly because the conductor could not issue a Penalty Fare (these are often restricted to Revenue Protection Inspectors), so he reported you for investigation and potential prosecution. What you have received is presumably a letter asking for your comments and offering to settle the matter for a "fixed penalty" of £100. If the use of the ticket was unintentional this provides your opportunity to write and explain this and see if you can just pay the reduced fare. However, if it was deliberate it starts to look like fare evasion which can be prosecuted in the criminal courts.

 

[kkh434]

Here is the notice. The conductor explicitly told me that he understood that I was not aware of the situation and he recognised it was a genuine mistake, which I should communicate to Northern.

I bought an Anytime Day Single for a different time, due to the next train not being available to buy on the Northern app.

 

[jamiearmley]

Looking at the time on that notice, indicating that you were spoken to on the train at 09:16 am, would then imply you caught the 09:10 service from Ilkley to Leeds.

As you say, as you left buying your ticket too late, so that the 09:10 train was not available to buy on the app, and therefore you purchased for a different train.

The next service to Leeds, which would have been available to buy, would have been the 09:40. A ticket for this service would have been full price, due to the minimum fare rules, albeit it would have been off peak, so still not valid, (unless you had selected the anytime fare from the options screen).

Logic tells us that to buy a railcard discounted ticket, you did not choose the 0940 train, but the next one after 10am, to avail yourself of the cheaper Railcard discounted ticket.

As a guard who deals with this sort of thing on a daily basis, I can tell you that the evidence available : booking a post 10am train to get the discount and traveling earlier - (and the times selected are available in the back office systems) : points to a deliberate avoidance of the fare due. It's also very hard for you to defend.

I would advise you to settle this matter without further delay, to avoid escalation.

 

[scrapy]

You do not have any right of appeal. This is not a penalty fare. You are being asked to pay an out of court settlement. The amount of which is the same as a penalty fare. You can choose to do this or to attend a magistrates court. I would advise you do the former as conviction in a magistrates court would result in costs greater than £100, a fine, a victim surcharge, a criminal conviction. Northern almost certainly have the law on their side.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The conductor explicitly told me that he understood that I was not aware of the situation and he recognised it was a genuine mistake, which I should communicate to Northern.

Was this, if true, essentially a load of bulls**t so as to avoid possible confrontation with the OP on the day?

 

[AlterEgo]

Was this, if true, essentially a load of bulls**t so as to avoid possible confrontation with the OP on the day?

It depends. What the conductor said wasn’t wrong! However I do wonder how much front line staff know about the consequences of reporting this sort of thing.

 

[WesternLancer]

Here is the notice. The conductor explicitly told me that he understood that I was not aware of the situation and he recognised it was a genuine mistake, which I should communicate to Northern.

I bought an Anytime Day Single for a different time, due to the next train not being available to buy on the Northern app.

So it looks like you are the 'victim' of various things that have come together in a way that is not great news

ie
- You did not know that your Railcard T&Cs mean you can not use it for short journeys before 10am on weekdays to get a discounted ticket
- when you bought your ticket you bypassed fares detailed for the train you were on, presumably, in favour of a cheaper ticket that was valid after 10am
- You travelled at a time on a short journey with such a ticket that was not thus valid (thereby unwittingly committing an offence which in England is also a criminal offence)
- Your ticket was checked by a member of staff who could not issue a Penalty Fare (which if paid promptly would have cost you £50), so the staff probably had no option but to report you to their fares protection team. The staff may not have known that this team would not offer you the chance to pay the difference, but would demand £100 as an alternative to them using the powers they have to prosecute you in court. The conductor thus mislead you (deliberately or in error).

Others above have set out the options now available. You could write back to Northern saying that £100 is rather OTT for the error you made, but they may not agree. The risk if they don't is they could take you to court where they will win and that may cost you more than £100.

It's not great for making a simple mistake.

Feel to post any follow up questions if anything unclear.

 

[furlong]

I bought an Anytime Day Single for a different time, due to the next train not being available to buy on the Northern app.

To defend against this sort of thing, you would need to demonstrate how Northern contributed to the alleged offence - to attempt to show that they would be prosecuting you only because of their own shortcomings (and you would really need a solicitor to help you to follow the right legal process to do this). Look at the exact timings. What time did you make the purchase? What time was the train? What time did you 'activate' the ticket? At the same time another day BEFORE the departure of your service, try again to select it. Perhaps record a video of the way you used the system to buy the ticket (up to the point of payment of course - you don't need to complete the purchase). Record another video showing what SHOULD have happened - how you WOULD have selected the correct ticket if the train HAD been shown. By comparing the two, explain in what way(s) the train company caused you to purchase an INCORRECT fare.

Examples of the sorts of factors that might be involved - these are just examples - only you know the truth: Perhaps you were looking for the railcard discount but the system was failing to apply it WITHOUT explaining that the ticket didn't qualify for the discount so you thought it was a problem with the system?
Perhaps it removed the train from the system BEFORE the train had closed its doors WITHOUT sufficient warning that tickets could not be purchased on the app at the last moment before departure and WITHOUT telling you what to do in these circumstances?
Perhaps there are misleading posters at the station saying you can buy online WITHOUT small print saying you must use a machine or ticket office instead if it is too close to the departure time?
etc. etc.

So you should write a short narrative of exactly what happened trying to show how, if the train company had done its job right, you wouldn't have bought the wrong ticket. The question is then how believable it is, and to what extent, if any, the train company bears a share of culpability. In summary something like "this problem only arose because your app/website required me to pretend I was going to travel on a different train (for which different fares applied) even though there was still more than enough time to purchase a ticket for the correct service before its departure. If it had been capable of showing the correct fares for the service I used then of course I wouldn't have been led into buying the wrong one".

(It's also very disappointing that 'Fixed Penalty' is still appearing in these letters - someone involved might wish to formally draw this to the attention of the DfT/ORR. As per previous correspondence released under FOI it should not be referred to as a Penalty - nor even a penalty. Even worse is that it has been set at a level that matches a Penalty Fare which IS a Penalty but without the £50 option. Reform is long overdue to allow the back office to issue proper Penalty Fares retrospectively in circumstances like this.)

 

[WesternLancer]

(It's also very disappointing that 'Fixed Penalty' is still appearing in these letters - someone involved might wish to formally draw this to the attention of the DfT/ORR. As per previous correspondence released under FOI it should not be referred to as a Penalty - nor even a penalty. Even worse is that it has been set at a level that matches a Penalty Fare which IS a Penalty but without the £50 option. Reform is long overdue to allow the back office to issue proper Penalty Fares retrospectively in circumstances like this.)

Good point - and operators like Northern could help a bit in this by as well as using the right terminology - why not ask for £100, but £50 if paid promptly. It would seem more reasonable to do that.

 

[fandroid]

So, the OP underpaid by £1.55 and is now being clobbered for £105.60.

 

[Haywain]

So, the OP underpaid by £1.55 and is now being clobbered for £105.60.

The OP did not have a valid ticket to travel. If it had been an available option, a Penalty Fare could have been issued which would have resulted in a payment of £55.60 being due, so if they are being unduly penalised then it is by £50, not by £105.60.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Depending on what ticket the OP actually held, could they have just been charged an excess to say the full Anytime Single Fare, as is suggested in Clauses 9.5.1 / 9.5.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel?

Extracts below...

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Depending on what ticket the OP actually held, could they have just been charged an excess to say the full Anytime Single Fare, as is suggested in Clauses 9.5.1 / 9.5.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel?

Extracts below...

Considering neither of those clauses could possibly apply to this case I can't see how.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Considering neither of those clauses could possibly apply to this case I can't see how.

Why not? OP has fallen foul of attempting to use (early) a discounted ticket which would have been valid later in the day. Is that effectively not a "time restriction"?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Incorrectly using a railcard is not the same as buying an off peak ticket and travelling during the peak. As for the break of journey clause, how could that possibly be applied to this case?

 

[scrapy]

- Your ticket was checked by a member of staff who could not issue a Penalty Fare (which if paid promptly would have cost you £50), so the staff probably had no option but to report you to their fares protection team. The staff may not have known that this team would not offer you the chance to pay the difference, but would demand £100 as an alternative to them using the powers they have to prosecute you in court. The conductor thus mislead you (deliberately or in error).

Whether or not the conductor/rpi could issue a penalty fare isn't really relevant.

The OP had a valid ticket, they also had a valid Railcard. Penalty fares legislation is very specific only allows a penalty fare to be charged if a passenger doesn't have the correct documentation to support a discounted fare or they don't have a valid ticket. They had both, however had a discount they weren't entitled to so a TIR was the correct.

Whether or not the way Northerns' prosecution team should have been more leaniant is up for debate, but this debate won't help the OP.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As for the break of journey clause, how could that possibly be applied to this case?

The first part of the clause 9.5.3 isn't particularly relevant, it's the second part that possibly is...

...you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[kkh434]

I really appreciate the advice everyone has shared here. Two questions I need help to clarify are:

1. Is it actually possible to appeal a Fixed Penalty Notice, and if so, how?
2. How is a "valid ticket" actually defined? (I think this may be a lot more complex to answer)

Many thanks!

 

[Haywain]

1. Is it actually possible to appeal a Fixed Penalty Notice, and if so, how?

The short answer is that there is no formal appeal procedure. However, you can ask but need to be aware that you are not doing so from a position of strength and there is insufficient evidence on the forums for us to have a view on your prospects of success. The information about your case available now is a bit clearer than when I posted earlier on the thread and I am more inclined to the view that you should pay up and chalk it down to experience than I was then.

 

[Hadders]

The letter you've received will tell you if there is a right of appeal, and if so what you must do, Ultimately the train company could send the matter to the Magistrates Court for them to decide.

The Nation Rail Conditions of Travel defines a Ticket as:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

Ticket means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by one or more of the Train Companies. An electronic document or record may consist of (but not be limited to):

a Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
a payment card or identity card;

a mobile telephone or tablet device;
other mobile electronic device; or
a database, in conjunction with an authorised Contactless Bank Card bearing the symbol described in the notices and publications of the Train Company as being valid for travel on their services.

Electronic documents or records may not display the same information as printed Tickets but the conditions for use of these will explain where this information can be found. Where you have a road-enabled Mobility Scooter, a Ticket is also evidence that you are permitted to carry your Mobility Scooter (where that Mobility Scooter is permitted by the Train Company's Accessible Travel Policy –for further information see the Train Company’s mobility scooter policy). If you are making a journey using a combination of Tickets, each Ticket must be used in accordance with these Conditions;

 

[30907]

How is a "valid ticket" actually defined? (I think this may be a lot more complex to answer)

Tentative suggestion:
1. it is valid on the date and at the time that it is used for travel
but also
2. it complies with any other conditions attached to it (for example, purchased before boarding, or in this case, the minimum price restriction).

 

[furlong]

I really appreciate the advice everyone has shared here. Two questions I need help to clarify are:

1. Is it actually possible to appeal a Fixed Penalty Notice, and if so, how?
2. How is a "valid ticket" actually defined? (I think this may be a lot more complex to answer)

Many thanks!

1) This "Fixed Penalty Notice" is nothing more than a made-up name invented by a train company which seems to be misleading you as to what it is. Ignore that name. They should not be using it. What they are effectively doing is offering you an undertaking that the courts will not convict you of the alleged offence if you pay the train company the sum suggested.

You could write back providing mitigation along the lines of what I mentioned earlier detailing how this happened - your challenge here is to persuade them it was NOT a DELIBERATE attempt to under-pay - and then as MCR suggests, quoting 9.5.1 offer to pay the difference in fare. (You could send a cheque for this amount if you have a cheque book and are replying by post.)

You have 3 choices, depending on your attitude to risk:
1) Do nothing. A prosecution is likely to follow. Higher stakes. You should get proper legal advice on some of the points mentioned on this thread.
2) Pay the money they ask. That's the end of the matter. Peace of mind. You've capped the cost and avoided conviction. You could still try to persuade them to give you the money back afterwards.
3) Try to negotiate. You might be lucky or you might not. They might change or withdraw their settlement offer. They might prosecute.

 

[robbeech]

Just to add a potential controversial spanner into the works.

It’s not unknown for apps to behave and be implemented poorly with some crossover points in timings for restrictions and discounts. Trainline and the operators using them were overcharging 16 to 25 railcard users on a variety of journeys at the crossover points where tickets didn’t meet the minimum price for in excess of 2 years despite being made aware of it.

Its unlikely but it’s worth checking that the app used here (particularly if it was the Northern app) behaved in the appropriate manner and doesn’t actually issue a ticket with an itinerary for the train you caught.

 

[island]

The OP had a valid ticket

No they didn't. The ticket they held was not valid until 10am.

 

[kkh434]

If I respond to Northern but they don't get back to me in the 14 days I have to pay the penalty notice, do I risk an escalation of the situation?

I can see the merits of paying up and getting this over with, sadly.