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Which bus manufacturer has the better build quality?

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This is a debating thread for which bus manufacturer has the better build quality through the last few decades.

This can include any bus manufacturer in the UK e.g WrightBus and companies that have made buses for UK operations e.g. MCV in Egypt.

This won't include manufacturers that dont make buses for UK operations such as New Flyer.

Enjoy, as always keep as civil as possible.

Thanks for reading and everyone stay safe out there :).
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'd say Mercedes-Benz, without question, though the Citaro doesn't seem to be quite as well screwed-together as its forerunner, the O405N (Niederflur = low floor), and there were the design issues that led to a few fires.

Coaches I suppose there's no substitute for a Setra, or again Merc.
 
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For British bodywork builders I always found the Northern Counties products to be solidly built. Certainly the Countybus and Palatine II models seemed rock-solid. The combination of the Palatine II with the Volvo version of the Olympian chassis was the best all-round vehicle from my driving career.

Coach-wise I once had the pleasure of driving a Neoplan Skyliner, what a beautiful piece of kit that was!
 
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I've found that Volvo B9TL Wright Eclipse Gemini 1/2 are built like tanks.

They're really robust and very reliable.

Also the B7TL Wright Eclipse Gemini but the B9TL seems to be more powerful.
 

Jordan Adam

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I dont think there's really one answer as build quality varies. Wrightbus for example were fairly decent in the late 90s through to the mid 00s. Then it took a nosedive, although things seem to be improving again. Likewise Alexanders/ADL were a bit hit or miss for a while although have been improving significantly over the last 5 years.

I would agree with previous comments about the build quality of the Citaro, however as nice as they are they feel very dated inside and the seat layout at the rear is pretty shoddy.

For British bodywork builders I always found the Northern Counties products to be solidly built. Certainly the Countybus and Palatine II models seemed rock-solid. The combination of the Palatine II with the Volvo version of the Olympian chassis was the best all-round vehicle from my driving career.

Coach-wise I once had the pleasure of driving a Neoplan Skyliner, what a beautiful piece of kit that was!

Olympians were very prone to corrosion however I would agree that a decent Palatine was one of the best deckers of their time. The Paladin/Countrybus always felt quite flimsy though, i know that most of the drivers here didn't like them and much preferred the PS Types.

With Neoplans it really comes down to the engine, Mercedes powered ones are great, MANs less so. The doors on the Skyliners were also horrendously slow.
 

Snow1964

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The Caetano e-city gold (as used by Abellio in London) seem well screwed together, and don’t seem to rattle

At opposite end of scale anything with a 4pot Diesel engine seems doomed to rattle at times so should be in the poor quality listing
 

richw

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Anything from ADL seems to rattle like a baby toy.
Our 68 plate Optare Solo SR seem well built with no rattles or bits falling off. Whereas our 18 plate E200MMCs seem to rattle like mad and bits of interior trim pop out.
 

cnjb8

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This is a tough one, I guess all the buses I've been on seem to have rattled. I'll say a diesel Optare Solo SR or Versa is put together well, but on the electric models you can hear every little rattle that you wouldn't hear on a diesel.
 
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This is a tough one, I guess all the buses I've been on seem to have rattled. I'll say a diesel Optare Solo SR or Versa is put together well, but on the electric models you can hear every little rattle that you wouldn't hear on a diesel.
Yeah, Solos are quite good, great for country roads especially the shorter wheel base ones, its a shame a lot of the old solos are getting made redundant (permanent Withdrawn or scapped) they were great buses.
 

GusB

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With Neoplans it really comes down to the engine, Mercedes powered ones are great, MANs less so. The doors on the Skyliners were also horrendously slow.
Poor engine choice doesn't equate to poor build quality, though.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is a tough one, I guess all the buses I've been on seem to have rattled. I'll say a diesel Optare Solo SR or Versa is put together well, but on the electric models you can hear every little rattle that you wouldn't hear on a diesel.

Though you should get fewer rattles developing on electric vehicles as they haven't got the diesel engine shaking them to bits.

Rattle has other aspects than just build quality, for example in countries like Germany where bonded double-glazing is common on city buses (unlike the UK, where gasket single-glazing is generally preferred due to the lower cost, weight and ease of replacement), which strengthens the body considerably and creates less distortion which is the thing that leads to many rattles, both those that develop over time and those that happen directly because of the flexibility in the bodyshell.

Yeah, Solos are quite good, great for country roads especially the shorter wheel base ones, its a shame a lot of the old solos are getting made redundant (permanent Withdrawn or scapped) they were great buses.

The Solo was a piece of marketing genius in that it basically became the face and brand of pretty much every rural bus route, giving passengers something that had "big bus" features replacing the rather naff variety of old breadvans you used to get on such routes before. I think Wright's similar products have largely unseated it now, though, alongside the need for bigger vehicles to accommodate PSVAR requirements.
 

CN04NRJ

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I'd say Mercedes-Benz, without question, though the Citaro doesn't seem to be quite as well screwed-together as its forerunner, the O405N (Niederflur = low floor), and there were the design issues that led to a few fires.

Coaches I suppose there's no substitute for a Setra, or again Merc.

Driven 17 plate Citaros (with the newer dashboard etc) and 70 plate MCV Evora B8RLEs, the build quality (to my surprise!) is much better than the Citaro. They seem alot more solid and handle rough roads alot better (side note, i've driven both types from brand new... will see how the MCV fares over time in comparison).
 

MotCO

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Although I have not been on one, was Volvo B10M Alexander PS fairly robust? They certainly had a long life.
 

Jordan Adam

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To add to the list i'd say the Volvo B10BLE / Wright Renown. This was both Volvo and Wrightbus at their peak. It's a shame it was only in production from around 4 years before Euro3 emission regulations meant to had to be replaced by the rather marmite Volvo B7L... At least the B7RLE/Eclipse Urban came along a few years later and somewhat got the Volvo/Wright single decker back on track. However the earlier Wright Eclipse Urbans were not without their issues, Structural issues with the floor layout on earlier examples saw Wright revise the whole floor layout/design in late 2006, while build quality on those same earlier examples is generally hit or miss. The B7RLE was easily at it's best between 2007 and 2010 when it was powered by the D7E engine and ZF Ecomat Gearbox.
Poor engine choice doesn't equate to poor build quality, though.
I never said that though, that particular part of my post was more a generalised overview about the Skyliners.
Driven 17 plate Citaros (with the newer dashboard etc) and 70 plate MCV Evora B8RLEs, the build quality (to my surprise!) is much better than the Citaro. They seem alot more solid and handle rough roads alot better (side note, i've driven both types from brand new... will see how the MCV fares over time in comparison).
Very interesting to hear as build quality on MCVs, even Evoras built as recent as 2018 isn't great. It'll be interesting to see how they are further down the line. At least i doubt anything can be as bad as Lothians 18 plate Geminis, i went on them a few times when brand new and the build quality was horrendous!
The Solo was a piece of marketing genius in that it basically became the face and brand of pretty much every rural bus route, giving passengers something that had "big bus" features replacing the rather naff variety of old breadvans you used to get on such routes before. I think Wright's similar products have largely unseated it now, though, alongside the need for bigger vehicles to accommodate PSVAR requirements.
Arguably the Solo has taken a bigger hit from the Mellor Strata and Enviro200, particularly you'll find lots of independents who maybe had of longer Darts and short Solos in the past now opting for 8.9M and 10.8M E200s for replacements as they help standardise the fleet, also keep in mind the longest variations of the Solo were replaced by the Versa which is basically a Solo with the front axle moved behind the cab, however popularity and opinions of the Versa are hit or miss.
This is a tough one, I guess all the buses I've been on seem to have rattled. I'll say a diesel Optare Solo SR or Versa is put together well, but on the electric models you can hear every little rattle that you wouldn't hear on a diesel.
The Cummins 4cyl Solos rattle and vibrate like mad at lower RPM and on idle. The Solo is a strange one as the build quality is neither amazing nor awful, it flip flops, one minute you'll find a Solo with no rattles, yet you could step on another Solo of similar vintage and it'll rattle and shake like a 90s Dart! That being said the earlier Mercedes powered Solos have proven to be pretty bomb proof and a worthy (unofficial) successor to the 709D.
I've found that Volvo B9TL Wright Eclipse Gemini 1/2 are built like tanks.
The D9B engine used in the B9TL is not that great in terms of reliability, however when they work they're fantastic, the older Gemini bodies are very sturdy built and still feel relatively modern, especially compared to a ALX400 or President. That being said i have found that the shorter 10.3M B9TL/Geminis that First have seem to be too light at the front end and bounce about quite a bit at higher speed.
I think the only low floor decker that can beat the B7/B9 Gemini is the B7TL/ALX400, specifically the ones built post 2001.
Although I have not been on one, was Volvo B10M Alexander PS fairly robust? They certainly had a long life.
Indeed i think most would agree. If it wasn't for PSVAR i suspect many of them would've lasted much longer on service work.
 

Robertj21a

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Going back a bit there didn't seem to be much that bettered an Olympian/ECW although there were many fans of the Bristol VR/ECW too.
 

fgwrich

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Although I have not been on one, was Volvo B10M Alexander PS fairly robust? They certainly had a long life.

They were, until you hit them with a large puddle or a large speed hump (The sumps are quite low on those, a friend of ours was considering saving one but it wont easily get into our place - Also, the Volvo electronics can be a bit temperamental near water). Still a good, fast bus though!
 

Eyersey468

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The build quality of the 67 reg Evosetis we have is terrible, they feel like they were thrown together at 6pm on a Friday night. The Optare Excels we had were awful as well.
The current ADL range seems to be screwed together reasonably well, some of the best were the ex Stagecoach B10Ms and Optare Prismas. B7 and B9 Geminis are OK too.
 

JModulo

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Purely on a quality basis, not anything produced by MCW, due to the well known rot issues. For reliability and a good overall bus, the Leyland Leopard.
 

Journeyman

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Purely on a quality basis, not anything produced by MCW, due to the well known rot issues. For reliability and a good overall bus, the Leyland Leopard.
MCW products varied a lot, though. The Metropolitan had terrible corrosion problems, but London Transport's Metrobus fleet lasted in service for well over 20 years without any serious problems.
 

JModulo

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MCW products varied a lot, though. The Metropolitan had terrible corrosion problems, but London Transport's Metrobus fleet lasted in service for well over 20 years without any serious problems.

As a whole though London vehicles seem to be generally better I've found. I work on a few Volvo Olympians, one is ex London and has a brilliant chassis with no issues around the usual areas. As for the SBG Metrobuses however...
 

Journeyman

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As a whole though London vehicles seem to be generally better I've found. I work on a few Volvo Olympians, one is ex London and has a brilliant chassis with no issues around the usual areas. As for the SBG Metrobuses however...
London's bus maintenance regime was always pretty good, especially when Aldenham was still open. LT's methods didn't always suit modern buses, but they got more care and attention at overhauls than other fleets did. They'd run them into the ground between overhauls, though.
 

JModulo

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London's bus maintenance regime was always pretty good, especially when Aldenham was still open. LT's methods didn't always suit modern buses, but they got more care and attention at overhauls than other fleets did. They'd run them into the ground between overhauls, though.
A trident I also work on, ex London, is good condition and looked after as you suggested despite this being Stagecoach. Overall the bus is good - its just the main units which are tired now however one has just been replaced.
 

GusB

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As a whole though London vehicles seem to be generally better I've found. I work on a few Volvo Olympians, one is ex London and has a brilliant chassis with no issues around the usual areas. As for the SBG Metrobuses however...
That's an interesting observation regarding the SBG Metrobuses - are we talking over the whole of their lives, or post-privatisation? Midland Scottish was the only operator to order them, although later models ended up with Kelvin or Strathtay, presumably because they were delivered after the 1985 re-organisation.

I suppose what I'm hinting at is that the majority would have ended up being owned by First.
 

JModulo

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That's an interesting observation regarding the SBG Metrobuses - are we talking over the whole of their lives, or post-privatisation? Midland Scottish was the only operator to order them, although later models ended up with Kelvin or Strathtay, presumably because they were delivered after the 1985 re-organisation.

I suppose what I'm hinting at is that the majority would have ended up being owned by First.

Obviously the older they got the worse they got, however I have seen letters from Metro Cammell to Midland about having to carry out chassis corrosion repairs at 2 years old if that puts things in to perspective. This wasn't a one off either, the full batch. I believe the Hong Kong export ones were just as bad.
 

Pat1105

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I've always found Optares to have pretty good build quality. As mentioned above, ADL have improved quite significantly of late.
 

Eyersey468

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I've always found Optares to have pretty good build quality. As mentioned above, ADL have improved quite significantly of late.
Depends on the model of Optare, the Prismas we had were excellent machines but the Excel didn't excel at anything other than breaking down and having bits fall off it.
 

Busman84

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Have to say back in the days the Olympians were in service I used to regard them as solid buses. I drove Alexander Royales and found these buses very smooth and did not rattle in anyway at all. However these buses were in a bad way regarding corrosion to chassis as early as 10 years old and many withdrawn earlier than they should have been.

Earlier Wright single deckers were pretty solid. But the Volvo B10BLE/Renown was the best at the time. Nice bus and suspension was far superior too compared to the Scania (resulted in Scanias being awful rattly). The earlier Scania L113 also suffered from some corrosion to chassis.
The B7L/Eclipse was a total disaster. Horrible vehicle to travel on and not great to drive either yet still a heavyweight bus yet poor build quality. The B7RLE/Eclipse was much better and a proper solid chassis and heaviest single deckers I’ve seen (thanks also to Firsts double glazing). Just walk on one of theses buses and you can notice how solid the floor.

Still find both B7TL/B9TL on Gemini well built. If nothing is loose (like vaults or access panels not secured properly) there is virtually no rattles at all and along with solid floor.

B7TL/Presidents while not as good as Gemini were also decent build quality with virtually no body rattles.

Trident ALX400/Presidents not so bad either and better than the E400.
 
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