Solent&Wessex
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- 9 Jul 2009
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I wonder which version of the Routeing Guide ATOC uses to update the various online journey planners such as NRES and the TOC websites, because I keep finding errors.
Here are two:
1) Deighton to Leeds via Huddersfield.
I refer below to a Deighton to New Pudsey ticket.
This ticket is NOT valid to double back via Huddersfield, but NRES and co think it is. Now, I base my argument on the following facts:
The permitted route for a journey is defined as a) the shortest route*; b) a direct train; c) routes shown in the routeing guide. The journey via HUD is neither a)* nor b) so we must consider c). Deighton is part of the Huddersfield Group, and New Pudsey has routeing points of Bradford or Leeds. Using the fares check rule we eliminate Leeds as an acceptable routeing point so use Bradford. Huddersfield to Bradford uses maps WK or WY. Now, WY allows travel via Leeds so that is fine. However no matter which instruction you read in the routeing guide, doubling back is not permitted unless you are changing trains at a Group of stations or there is an easement.
"If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey)."
(NB - elsewhere in the instructions it says passengers may need to change trains short of the routeing point to reach their destination without doubling back).
I have searched the easements and there is no easement in place to allow a double back on this journey. Deighton is part of the Huddersfield group, so for journeys which require a change at Huddersfield then a double back would be permitted, except that the routeing guide says the following about group stations :
"Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group."
Thus, as Deighton the origin station is part of the Huddersfield Group, doubling back is not permitted within that group. So doubling back via Huddersfield is not permitted.
Also, the fare from Deighton to New Pudsey / Leeds is less than the fare from Huddersfield.
I note that the National Enquiries website says that an SDS from Deighton to Leeds or New Pudsey IS permitted to double back via Huddersfield for this journey. I cannot possibly see how this can be the case at all. I can find no argument in any of the routeing guide instructions or examples that would allow this to take place. As far as I can see it, the NRES website is wrong and giving false information (unless there is something I am not aware about and is not published anywhere or my interpretation of the Routeing Guide is incorrect). As an aside, Mirfield station is also part of Huddersfield Group, has fares cheaper than Huddersfield, but NRES says that Mirfield fares are not valid to double back. As far as the routeing guide is concerned I can find no difference between Deighton and Mirfield so how come one is showing as being valid (when it seems it quite clearly isn't) and one correctly shows it as not valid?
* - Some places in the Routeing Guide refer to the shortest route as being the shortest by mileage or a route no more than 3 miles longer than this shortest route. There has been some debate in the past about stations close together as to whether this means that you can double back if the total mileage is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest mileage. The shortest route from Deighton to New Pudsey is 21 miles (direct Deighton to Leeds then Leeds to New Pudsey). Deighton to Huddersfield is 2 miles each way, so by doubling back you are going 4 miles longer than the shortest mileage, so therefore this argument for validity cannot be used either.
2) Roby & Broad Green to Manchester via Liverpool Lime Street
I advise that this ticket is not valid to travel via Liverpool, and is only valid direct via Huyton.
Here is the reasoning for this, using the Routeing Guide.
Broad Green is an associated station. It is associated with Huyton or Liverpool Group. We must select the appropriate routing point to use, following the fares check rule. The routeing guide instructions say the following:
"If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination
with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point
only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey
from the origin station to the destination station."
I.e. a routeing point is only appropriate if the fare from it to the destination is the same or lower than the fare from the station from which you are travelling. All comparisons must be done using certain fares, mainly the SDS.
So, looking at the fares we see that Broad Green to Manchester is £9.60, Liverpool to Manchester is £11.20 and Huyton to Manchester is £9.30. Thus Liverpool Group is NOT a valid routeing point as the fare is higher than that from Broad Green. Huyton is the only appropriate routeing point in this case as the fare is the same or lower than the fare from Broad Green.
Using the Routeing Guide we see that permitted routes from Huyton to Manchester are shown only on map ML. ML shows that the only permitted routes from Huyton to Manchester are direct via Newton le Willows, or via Wigan & Bolton / Atherton. The section of line between Warrington and Manchester isn't even shown on the map.
The routeing guide instructions say:
"If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the
permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted
routes between routeing points."
Manchester Stations are a Routeing Point, so the correct route is as follows : From Broad Green via the shortest route to Huyton, then via the permitted routes on map ML from Huyton to Manchester.
The same applies in reverse.
Broad Green to Manchester via Liverpool is not the shortest route, within 3 miles of the shortest route, nor on a direct train, so is not a permitted route under any circumstances.
Therefore, I have established that Liverpool is not an appropriate routeing point for this journey and cannot be used, and that the permitted routes from Huyton do not allow travel via WAC, so therefore a Broad Green to Manchester ticket is NOT valid to travel via WAC and LIV.
But, you guessed it, Journey Planner, NRES and other online planners say it is. Why, why, why oh why do they show this, when it quite clearly isn't the case???
I am I missing something? Have I gone mad? Have I completely mis-interpreted the Routeing Guide all this time?
If not, then why is ATOC and chums blindly dishing out duff information?
These are just two examples local to me - what about the rest of the country?
Here are two:
1) Deighton to Leeds via Huddersfield.
I refer below to a Deighton to New Pudsey ticket.
This ticket is NOT valid to double back via Huddersfield, but NRES and co think it is. Now, I base my argument on the following facts:
The permitted route for a journey is defined as a) the shortest route*; b) a direct train; c) routes shown in the routeing guide. The journey via HUD is neither a)* nor b) so we must consider c). Deighton is part of the Huddersfield Group, and New Pudsey has routeing points of Bradford or Leeds. Using the fares check rule we eliminate Leeds as an acceptable routeing point so use Bradford. Huddersfield to Bradford uses maps WK or WY. Now, WY allows travel via Leeds so that is fine. However no matter which instruction you read in the routeing guide, doubling back is not permitted unless you are changing trains at a Group of stations or there is an easement.
"If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey)."
(NB - elsewhere in the instructions it says passengers may need to change trains short of the routeing point to reach their destination without doubling back).
I have searched the easements and there is no easement in place to allow a double back on this journey. Deighton is part of the Huddersfield group, so for journeys which require a change at Huddersfield then a double back would be permitted, except that the routeing guide says the following about group stations :
"Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group."
Thus, as Deighton the origin station is part of the Huddersfield Group, doubling back is not permitted within that group. So doubling back via Huddersfield is not permitted.
Also, the fare from Deighton to New Pudsey / Leeds is less than the fare from Huddersfield.
I note that the National Enquiries website says that an SDS from Deighton to Leeds or New Pudsey IS permitted to double back via Huddersfield for this journey. I cannot possibly see how this can be the case at all. I can find no argument in any of the routeing guide instructions or examples that would allow this to take place. As far as I can see it, the NRES website is wrong and giving false information (unless there is something I am not aware about and is not published anywhere or my interpretation of the Routeing Guide is incorrect). As an aside, Mirfield station is also part of Huddersfield Group, has fares cheaper than Huddersfield, but NRES says that Mirfield fares are not valid to double back. As far as the routeing guide is concerned I can find no difference between Deighton and Mirfield so how come one is showing as being valid (when it seems it quite clearly isn't) and one correctly shows it as not valid?
* - Some places in the Routeing Guide refer to the shortest route as being the shortest by mileage or a route no more than 3 miles longer than this shortest route. There has been some debate in the past about stations close together as to whether this means that you can double back if the total mileage is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest mileage. The shortest route from Deighton to New Pudsey is 21 miles (direct Deighton to Leeds then Leeds to New Pudsey). Deighton to Huddersfield is 2 miles each way, so by doubling back you are going 4 miles longer than the shortest mileage, so therefore this argument for validity cannot be used either.
2) Roby & Broad Green to Manchester via Liverpool Lime Street
I advise that this ticket is not valid to travel via Liverpool, and is only valid direct via Huyton.
Here is the reasoning for this, using the Routeing Guide.
Broad Green is an associated station. It is associated with Huyton or Liverpool Group. We must select the appropriate routing point to use, following the fares check rule. The routeing guide instructions say the following:
"If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination
with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point
only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey
from the origin station to the destination station."
I.e. a routeing point is only appropriate if the fare from it to the destination is the same or lower than the fare from the station from which you are travelling. All comparisons must be done using certain fares, mainly the SDS.
So, looking at the fares we see that Broad Green to Manchester is £9.60, Liverpool to Manchester is £11.20 and Huyton to Manchester is £9.30. Thus Liverpool Group is NOT a valid routeing point as the fare is higher than that from Broad Green. Huyton is the only appropriate routeing point in this case as the fare is the same or lower than the fare from Broad Green.
Using the Routeing Guide we see that permitted routes from Huyton to Manchester are shown only on map ML. ML shows that the only permitted routes from Huyton to Manchester are direct via Newton le Willows, or via Wigan & Bolton / Atherton. The section of line between Warrington and Manchester isn't even shown on the map.
The routeing guide instructions say:
"If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the
permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted
routes between routeing points."
Manchester Stations are a Routeing Point, so the correct route is as follows : From Broad Green via the shortest route to Huyton, then via the permitted routes on map ML from Huyton to Manchester.
The same applies in reverse.
Broad Green to Manchester via Liverpool is not the shortest route, within 3 miles of the shortest route, nor on a direct train, so is not a permitted route under any circumstances.
Therefore, I have established that Liverpool is not an appropriate routeing point for this journey and cannot be used, and that the permitted routes from Huyton do not allow travel via WAC, so therefore a Broad Green to Manchester ticket is NOT valid to travel via WAC and LIV.
But, you guessed it, Journey Planner, NRES and other online planners say it is. Why, why, why oh why do they show this, when it quite clearly isn't the case???
I am I missing something? Have I gone mad? Have I completely mis-interpreted the Routeing Guide all this time?
If not, then why is ATOC and chums blindly dishing out duff information?
These are just two examples local to me - what about the rest of the country?
