Which trains may use Curzon Street station, once it opens?

[mkjcal]

What trains will actually use Curzon St. now that HS2 has had all its limbs cut off? Yes, the trunk from Euston, sorry London, will provide 3 trains an hour, but there is no connection to the East Midlands (HS or conventional), and any train heading north will very quickly find itself on the WCML. Current northbound services from Birmingham (New Street) are routed via Wolverhampton and Stafford, so sending these into Curzon St. would only further congest the WCML south of Stafford. And as the main Birmingham to Manchester service is currently provided by Cross-Country….

 

[The Planner]

What trains will actually use Curzon St. now that HS2 has had all its limbs cut off? Yes, the trunk from Euston, sorry London, will provide 3 trains an hour, but there is no connection to the East Midlands (HS or conventional), and any train heading north will very quickly find itself on the WCML. Current northbound services from Birmingham (New Street) are routed via Wolverhampton and Stafford, so sending these into Curzon St. would only further congest the WCML south of Stafford. And as the main Birmingham to Manchester service is currently provided by Cross-Country….

3tph to OOC/Euston and probably a Curzon St Manchester.

 

[HSTEd]

What trains will actually use Curzon St. now that HS2 has had all its limbs cut off? Yes, the trunk from Euston, sorry London, will provide 3 trains an hour, but there is no connection to the East Midlands (HS or conventional), and any train heading north will very quickly find itself on the WCML. Current northbound services from Birmingham (New Street) are routed via Wolverhampton and Stafford, so sending these into Curzon St. would only further congest the WCML south of Stafford. And as the main Birmingham to Manchester service is currently provided by Cross-Country….

If nothing happens to restore Phase 2A, probably a turn up and go service to London, plus a Curzon Street-Manchester train, given how easily it would beat the current journey time.

 

[Purple Orange]

If nothing happens to restore Phase 2A, probably a turn up and go service to London, plus a Curzon Street-Manchester train, given how easily it would beat the current journey time.

Where would the capacity come from for that? There’s no capacity north of Birmingham to accommodate a service to/from Curzon Street and although HS2 could handle 18 tph on its core, the limiting factor is Euston now, so I’m not seeing how more than 3 tph from Curzon Street to Euston could even happen.

 

[Snow1964]

What trains will actually use Curzon St. now that HS2 has had all its limbs cut off? Yes, the trunk from Euston, sorry London, will provide 3 trains an hour, but there is no connection to the East Midlands (HS or conventional), and any train heading north will very quickly find itself on the WCML. Current northbound services from Birmingham (New Street) are routed via Wolverhampton and Stafford, so sending these into Curzon St. would only further congest the WCML south of Stafford. And as the main Birmingham to Manchester service is currently provided by Cross-Country….

Not a lot. 3 to London, maybe 1 northbound.

With 7 platforms, if the HS2-HS1 link had been built could probably have turned over one island to International services. Run some holiday services to Europe.

But appears will be rather a ghost town, unless the East Midlands link gets added and a route extension towards North West. Really should have added a spur alongside M42 and M5 towards southwest, restored the extra (wartime) tracks between Gloucester and Cheltenham, and added useful hourly services to Bristol and Cardiff too.

Not much advantage in a station in centre of England if can only go one direction (SE), and can't really do NE, NW or SW directions to big cities.

 

[The Planner]

If nothing happens to restore Phase 2A, probably a turn up and go service to London, plus a Curzon Street-Manchester train, given how easily it would beat the current journey time.

It will take 15-20 minutes off it.

 

[Energy]

Remember that the station is right next door to Moor St and if works goes ahead they will be almost the same station.

 

[cle]

Is that assuming usual stops (e.g. first stop Stoke) on the existing route?

If this is as far as it gets, I'd expect (or hope) for a similar Liverpool service, which could call Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn etc and presumably be much faster than the current semi-s, which should remain as 'stoppers' vs the end to end choice.

I would argue the same for the current Manchester stopping pattern - add Congleton, Sandwell/Smethwick maybe etc etc. and enable the Curzon St service to be the prime B'ham-Manchester choice. Will suck a bit for those on XC from below Birmingham, e.g Oxford and Reading passengers.

 

[HSTEd]

Where would the capacity come from for that? There’s no capacity north of Birmingham to accommodate a service to/from Curzon Street and although HS2 could handle 18 tph on its core, the limiting factor is Euston now, so I’m not seeing how more than 3 tph from Curzon Street to Euston could even happen.

Well Euston could probably run a turn up and go Birmingham service at comparatively high intensity off one platform if it had to.
But finding a path would be eased by the fact it would thrash the existing journey, to the point that it will probably be worth pulling an existing train.

EDIT:
You could extend the Northern Stoke-Manchester stopper to Curzon Street and it would still be competitive with the XC offering.

 

[Purple Orange]

Well Euston could probably run a turn up and go Birmingham service at comparatively high intensity off one platform if it had to.
But finding a path would be eased by the fact it would thrash the existing journey, to the point that it will probably be worth pulling an existing train.

EDIT:
You could extend the Northern Stoke-Manchester stopper to Curzon Street and it would still be competitive with the XC offering.

I can’t imagine the stopper being extended to Curzon Street, but you could scrap the Manchester-Reading/Bournemouth and run the Manchester-Stoke service through New Street. Then you might get an hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham Curzon Street, but the time benefit would only be the difference between Stafford to Curzon Street versus Stafford to New Street. Then there would be the question of whether there exists the capacity between Stafford and Handsacre.

If there is scope for just 1 tph heading north from Curzon Street, would it not be better to split the London-Glasgow via New Street, and have a Glasgow to Curzon Street service instead?

 

[cle]

I think the issues are the Stockport paths and the Cumbria paths. Hence finite trains to Manchester and Scotland.

You could likely fit a service to Liverpool, maybe another to Crewe/Preston - up the TV without too much difficulty. If it was wired, Chester/N Wales, etc.

For Manchester, I'd go direct to Stoke, via Stone.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think the issues are the Stockport paths and the Cumbria paths. Hence finite trains to Manchester and Scotland.

You could likely fit a service to Liverpool, maybe another to Crewe/Preston - up the TV without too much difficulty. If it was wired, Chester/N Wales, etc.

For Manchester, I'd go direct to Stoke, via Stone.

Isn't part of the trent valley only 2 tracks, creating a capacity bottleneck which is north of where HS2 will join the WCML?

 

[snowball]

Isn't part of the trent valley only 2 tracks, creating a capacity bottleneck which is north of where HS2 will join the WCML?

Two miles at Shugborough, between Colwich and Stafford.

Also potential for conflicting moves between Handsacre and Colwich.

 

[The Planner]

If there is scope for just 1 tph heading north from Curzon Street, would it not be better to split the London-Glasgow via New Street, and have a Glasgow to Curzon Street service instead?

If you are basing it on capacity and passenger numbers, Manchester is what you would do.

 

[Purple Orange]

If you are basing it on capacity and passenger numbers, Manchester is what you would do.

But you could run longer trains through New Street in any scenario. As it stands I think seeing anything more than 3 tph to London is all Curzon Street will see (400m in the peaks and 200m in the very early and late evenings), unless a new plan for phase 2 comes along.

 

[Meerkat]

Any demand for a Curzon St - Brum Interchange shuttle, or is turning back at the latter too tricky, or the demand easily covered by space on the London trains (that would then be resold to Interchange-Euston passengers)?
How about splitting at Crewe for Liverpool and Manchester? Lose some of the time gain, but fewer stops on bigger, newer, nicer (hopefully) trains, and the capacity would possibly enable a competitive price.

 

[cle]

I genuinely don't think paths to Crewe alone will be so hard to find. As I said, it's north of Lancaster and across Stockport which are limited.

Stockport - we have 3tph Euston and 2tph XC to contend with, 4 via Stoke, 1 via Crewe. Crewe also has the Cardiff and both have 1-2tph locals. Assume that total won't change, and if anything, we might see adds from the Dore route.

But yes a split at Crewe would work in theory, although have a time penalty. You'd also be routing via Wilmslow.

And I do think the Stoke-Birmingham HS2 journey unlock will be important here - a Curzon->Stone routing would see a massive improvement in journey time to Stoke, vs the current XC service going up to Stafford and across.

So possibly, one XC Manc tph could now route via Crewe and Wilmslow instead - also giving a regular New St-Wilmslow service.

Or you have a 12 car 350 service, in a Liverpool path, and THAT could split at Crewe (8 to L'pool, possibly 4 cars to Preston vs Manc!). Manchester Airport is always an option too.

 

[mkjcal]

Perhaps LUMO can use Curzon St. for a budget service (just to Manchester Airport so not to clog up Manchester Piccadilly)? Their customers won’t mind a disconnected terminal if the price is right, and the rest of us can continue with New Street.

 

[The Ham]

Why not just run 4+ tph between "London" and Birmingham, even if the current passenger numbers don't justify it?

You could even make it as frequent as possible and then run all the other (further north) services from Birmingham.

With a high enough frequency, you could justify the lack of indirect services (no one thinks anything of using the tube when travelling from parts of London to then catch an infrequent long distance service from any of the main stations). That then creates Birmingham as a new "London Terminus" for long distance travel beyond London. Obviously you'd want to keep the HS2 direct to places like Manchester and Scotland to get the time savings, but it would could allow much easier access to the places which are served well from Birmingham but are not quite so easy to get to from London.

You may even get people who live in London who would have otherwise hired a car to travel to somewhere else to hire the car from Birmingham rather than (say) Heathrow.

Whilst it wouldn't be suitable for everyone, it wouldn't need to have a significant impact on road use for road users to see a benefit.

 

[cle]

If there is overcapacity, you could think about Euston-OOC carriages (think longitudinal seating cars in middle of train) - to carry local connections. Open to Oyster/normal fares. Could be a useful link.

These could also become budget / unreserved seats from OOC-Birmingham.

Equally another operator could run cheaper services easily, if permitted. Or consider integration with BHX airlines.

Maybe LUMO could offer calls at Rugeley and Sandbach, for randomness. But using MAN as a parkway is interesting too, if parking isn’t airport experience.

 

[Manutd1999]

2ph EMU Birmingham-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester would be good use of Curzon St if the paths allow it. XC could then be reduced to 1ph via Wolves, perhaps running via Crewe to free space on the Stoke Line.

That would result in 5-6ph via Stoke (2x HS2, 2x Birmingham, 1-2x local) and 5ph via Crewe (1x HS2, 1x XC, 1x Tfw, 2x local). Paths on the WCML will be the limiting factor, but that depends how many northbound HS2 services there are....

 

[SynthD]

You could even make it as frequent as possible and then run all the other (further north) services from Birmingham. ... Obviously you'd want to keep the HS2 direct to places like Manchester and Scotland to get the time savings

Other than Liverpool, this is roughly what will happen if the recent cancellation is uncancelled. On top of that, the plans to move, and add, some CrossCountry services to Moor St match your plan.

 

[The Planner]

2ph EMU Birmingham-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester would be good use of Curzon St if the paths allow it. XC could then be reduced to 1ph via Wolves, perhaps running via Crewe to free space on the Stoke Line.

That would result in 5-6ph via Stoke (2x HS2, 2x Birmingham, 1-2x local) and 5ph via Crewe (1x HS2, 1x XC, 1x Tfw, 2x local). Paths on the WCML will be the limiting factor, but that depends how many northbound HS2 services there are....

6 tph north of Stoke is very difficult unless you bunch all the fasts together.

 

[HSTEd]

As noted, running six to eight trains per hour Birmingham to Euston/OOC is a fairly obvious move.
Platform limitations would be somewhat less pressing when it's just operating as an unusually fast metro.

 

[cle]

2ph EMU Birmingham-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester would be good use of Curzon St if the paths allow it. XC could then be reduced to 1ph via Wolves, perhaps running via Crewe to free space on the Stoke Line.

That would result in 5-6ph via Stoke (2x HS2, 2x Birmingham, 1-2x local) and 5ph via Crewe (1x HS2, 1x XC, 1x Tfw, 2x local). Paths on the WCML will be the limiting factor, but that depends how many northbound HS2 services there are....

Remember there will likely be at least one Euston - WFJ/MKC - Stoke - Manc tph.

But perhaps not. Or perhaps that can route via Wilmslow - as that service will need maintaining too, although they’ll have HS2 also perhaps.

In addition to fast HS2 services up towards Stoke, maybe the Manchester slow could extend to Curzon St, mop up a few extra calls. Would still give quick journeys into Birmingham for the likes of Stone and Rugeley. And stock could probably be any 100mph capable.

 

[HSTEd]

Remember there will likely be at least one Euston - WFJ/MKC - Stoke - Manc tph.

But perhaps not. Or perhaps that can route via Wilmslow - as that service will need maintaining too, although they’ll have HS2 also perhaps.

In addition to fast HS2 services up towards Stoke, maybe the Manchester slow could extend to Curzon St, mop up a few extra calls. Would still give quick journeys into Birmingham for the likes of Stone and Rugeley. And stock could probably be any 100mph capable.

The Manchester-Stoke stopper could run to Curzon Street and still compete with the current XC offering.
The real question is how many paths are available through Handsacre and if there is any way to squeeze more through at the cost of some other compromises.

 

[Snow1964]

The official population of North West is 7.3 million

The population of South West is 5.6m and South Wales 1.9m = 7.5m combined

So question is, would it be better to run the 4th train to north west or towards Bristol and or Cardiff (perhaps alternating). Obviously Crewe & Manchester are easier to run a train to, but does that make them the optimal choice.

One route already has loads of decent long trains, one gets a 4 or 5car voyager and a three car 170 each hour. Which deserves the extra one ?

 

[The Planner]

The Manchester-Stoke stopper could run to Curzon Street and still compete with the current XC offering.
The real question is how many paths are available through Handsacre and if there is any way to squeeze more through at the cost of some other compromises.

It would be around the same journey time. XC New St to Piccadilly is 88 minutes. The stopper is 54 from Stoke to Piccadilly. Its around 17/18 minutes from Handsacre to Stoke at line speed, so it needs to be 16 minutes from Curzon St to match it with high speed traction. You wouldnt use a path via Handsacre in this manner though.