Who to call at a crash?

[Dolive22]

Strange question, but who should you call if you see a train crash? Assuming you have a decent idea where you are but not a description the railway would understand nor the number for the signaller? Presumably you call 999, but which service do you ask for?

 

[EM2]

All of them, but ambulances first.

 

[Liam]

Strange question, but who should you call if you see a train crash? Assuming you have a decent idea where you are but not a description the railway would understand nor the number for the signaller? Presumably you call 999, but which service do you ask for?

I would 999 it and explain whats happened. They are then able to alert the relevant services. There is an argument to alert the signaller first, but 99% of people would have no idea how to do that so 999 is the best option.

Afew years back a car travelling infront of me hit a deer at about 60 mph going across Rannoch Moor, car was a mess, driver was well shaken up, I phoned 999, they alerted the police and ambulance service that a car was in bits across the A82 and the driver possibly in shock. They then put me through to medical staff who talked me through taking care of the driver until police arrived.

 

[Bevan Price]

Ambulance first. The sooner they get to the scene, the better the chance of saving anyone who is badly hurt. They will know who to contact if they are unfamiliar with a location. Ask for police and request them to contact the railway, so that any passing trains can be stopped. Also ask fot the fire brigade if there are any signs of fire.

(I assume that any rail staff will know the necessary phone numbers to contact signalling / control directly, and will therefore not require to call the civil police.)

 

[wensley]

(I assume that any rail staff will know the necessary phone numbers to contact signalling / control directly, and will therefore not require to call the civil police.)

I have the numbers for all the boxes along our line of route - I'd rarely speak to them routinely but you never know when you might want one of them!

For the average passer-by a 999 call and explanation of the situation seems the best option. The Civil Police aren't always the best at getting train movements stopped and speaking to NR Controls etc. so maybe requesting BTP would be advisable?

In all likelihood however, in an emergency the chances are a member of railway staff will have done the necessary.

 

[Dolive22]

That's interesting, I assumed the 999 operator could only pass you to one service. I would probably have gone for the police, as I assume they would be best placed to pass a message, directly or via BTP, to Network Rail to tell the signaller.

So you would basically give CHALET to the 999 operator, leading with E?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Civil Police aren't always the best at getting train movements stopped and speaking to NR Controls etc. so maybe requesting BTP would be advisable?

I had suspected as much from the size of the type in ACPO telling police not to go on the operational railway without getting the clear say so of NR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of them, but ambulances first.

Personally I think there should be one single emergency service coordination system so the first question is "what's happened" not "which service do you require", and I think it is sheer conservatism that means we don't have that. But when taught as a Scout and when teaching my Scouts now I tend to use these rules (roughly) to decide:-

Is something on fire or is someone trapped and injured? -> ask for fire brigade

If something is not on fire and nobody is trapped, is someone hurt? -> ask for ambulance

If something is not on fire and someone is not hurt, and there is a reason you need emergency assistance e.g. a blocked road due to an accident or a crime in progress -> ask for police

(There might be the odd edge case where someone is hurt as a result of a crime in progress, and stopping the crime is priority as more are likely to get hurt)

For a train crash...well...are people trapped and/or is it on fire? If so I'd go fire brigade, if not ambulance. In the end each service can call the other ones for assistance - the one to choose is which you'd want first.

Obviously in specialised cases you might want mountain rescue or coastguard, you'll know if you want those. Sometimes they are summoned via the Police call centre, but the person in the first-line call centre should know that.

Neil

 

[Dolive22]

Personally I think there should be one single emergency service coordination system so the first question is "what's happened" not "which service do you require", and I think it is sheer conservatism that means we don't have that.

That would make alot of sense, but for reasons related to both the development of the emergency services and the development of phone systems, we don't have the optimal system. Generalised, it is a very common story.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's interesting, I assumed the 999 operator could only pass you to one service.

This is correct. I think it's antiquated and lives might well be saved by the more efficient dispatch of services were a single call centre to be implemented and the question not to be "which service do you require" but "what has happened and where are you".

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would make alot of sense, but for reasons related to both the development of the emergency services and the development of phone systems, we don't have the optimal system. Generalised, it is a very common story.

Oh, indeed. But I think it is something that priority should be given to changing, because it would IMO save lives to change it - and quite possibly save money in the long run by removing duplication as well (that, or allow the call centres to be more local and thus gain the benefit of local knowledge of locations using the same number of staff but better distributed).

Neil

 

[cf111]

The call should start:

Operator: "Emergency, which service?"

<You explain what's happened and your location>

You will then probably go through to the Police or Ambulance service and the 999 operator will then alert the rest on your behalf. If you are unsure, the operator will default to the police.

 

[Dolive22]

The explanation of when to use 999 when it was introduced in 1937 was "for instance, the man in the flat next to yours is murdering his wife or you have seen a heavily masked cat burglar peering round the stack pipe of the local bank building." which I think really has the flavour of the time.

Just what is involved in a local force or fire brigade contacting the railway?

 

[IanXC]

I think my approach would certainly be to call BTP direct if there were another person present to call 999.

 

[wensley]

Just what is involved in a local force or fire brigade contacting the railway?

If I remember rightly the correct process is the relevant service's control to NR Control.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If you have a crash near a Network Rail structure there is a handy little sign with a phone number to call and just as important the name of the location.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think my approach would certainly be to call BTP direct if there were another person present to call 999.

I was thinking that. If there's two people then one should call 999 and the other might as well call the BTP directly. But if it's just you then definitely just 999 straight away.

 

[MP33]

The 999 service is not just Police, Fire and Ambulance. There is also Mountain and Cave Rescue, Royal Navy Bomb Disposal, Coastguard and others.

I have read the report into the Clapham Accident and one of the first witnesses, a local resident rang the local Police station rather than 999.

 

[Yabbadabba]

Call 999 like any other emergency. The emergency services controllers will liaise with NR control. The signaller if the line is TCB would of noticed by there signalling display that something is amiss and will start to protect the line. Not to mention that NR control will be contacting the relevant controlling signalboxes anyway.

 

[Dolive22]

If you have a crash near a Network Rail structure there is a handy little sign with a phone number to call and just as important the name of the location.

I was more thinking if you witnessed something on the railway. Even I know to call the "railway authority" if you hit a rail bridge as "the safety of trains may be affected".

 

[DelayRepay]

The key thing is to be very clear about what has happened and what you are asking for. I have a friend who takes 999 calls and he says the most frustrating thing is when he's asking for an address (so he can dispatch an ambulance) and has a hysterical person screaming down the phone for him to "hurry up" etc.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

You ask for all of them. We used to have a driver at our place who did 25 years in the brigade before he joined the railway and he said that the emergency services will send as many people as they could spare to a crash because it's one of those events which happens very rarely but is extremely valuable to experience from an operational point of view.

The train crew will have contacted the emergency services via the signaller too unless they are physically unable to. They have much better means of giving a specific location of an incident, the train crew can pinpoint the specific location of a crash (more specifically than, "in a field somewhere in Hampshire") and the signaller will be able to direct the emergency services to the nearest road access to that site.

 

[6Gman]

If you have a crash near a Network Rail structure there is a handy little sign with a phone number to call and just as important the name of the location.

Yes, that's the theory.

My experience - not an emergency, but an unlocked gate - was that the person at the other end of the line had a very sketchy idea of the geography of the WCML even when given the bridge reference!

 

[Dolive22]

Yes, that's the theory.

My experience - not an emergency, but an unlocked gate - was that the person at the other end of the line had a very sketchy idea of the geography of the WCML even when given the bridge reference!

My experience with an open gate (near a park, on the way to several primary schools, at just the right time to be going to school) was also not great. After some dithering, I rang BTP, who said someone would be sent out.

 

[AmeralGunson]

I would imagine that the best thing to do is to do nothing. If there's a crash on the railway the professionals employed by the railway are trained how to deal with it, who to call and know exactly how to describe the location where they are. I was told this by a Guard on a train some years ago when I was a regular commuter when I asked very shortly after the crash at Purley which was on the line that I travelled on. He explained that the railway description of a location may be somewhat different from a regular traveller's description.

 

[tsr]

From discussing it with my local signallers (in person), it appears they would prefer as much of an obvious description of the location as possible. You don't even have to use especially technical terminology (eg. "the line through Purley Oaks Platform 2" will suffice as a good description to relay, firstly). Anything that can be clearly relayed is better than nothing, provided it is accurate. Remember that there will be a "lead" person in the conversation who should be able to request and sort out any clarification, if it is required. Use a fixed telephone if you can. Look for the green emergency phone symbol (many stations, platform ramps and other places have emergency phones - way more than you'd expect if you weren't familiar with them), a signal post telephone, a level crossing telephone, or just the "black on white" phone symbol on a cupboard (a standard telephone for railway use).

Bridge numbers, identification plates etc. are all very useful (and I mean that sincerely) if you have time to search for the details and get them to hand before taking action, but sometimes these things can, with the best of intentions, be less handy than a more colloquial description. Unless you have a bridge or other plate specifically advising that any incident should be treated as prescribed and by giving a specific reference, it would perhaps be best to just detail the location's defining features (and not "not where they are", as in, "I have just left Hassocks and have absolutely no idea where we are, but we're near a sort of stream"). You can mention the plate as an immediate secondary identifier. I am tailoring this to the public and not to railway staff - obviously any on here will know the protocols if they are competent! There are two risks - firstly that someone will spend too much time looking up a small piece of information which may be redundant, linked to an unrelated feature or may not link to the required location information, and secondly that the plate or other identifying mark may just be something like an unusual car stop marker, which would probably not be very helpful at all. The only exception I'd give would be a plate affixed to the signal such as "VC191", which details the signal number.

As for a poor response to issues such as open gates, stating hazards and positive actions required (eg. "this gate needs a new padlock because it is currently open to lots of nearby schoolchildren") is a good way to go about it. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that you either exaggerated or didn't send the right message, as call takers can of course vary just with anyone in any other job, but emphasising the issue and what could be done about it (don't worry - when qualified professionals turn up, if your suggestion isn't safe, then no unsafe work should be done as a result - it just builds a picture) is the right way forward.

I think much of what needs to be said about calling the emergency services has been said. The operator and the call handler should be able to prioritise and arrange for someone to dispatch resources and supervisors should pick up on when a major incident is kicking off. I say "should", as I am sure there are times it does not happen, but in my experience there are not too many incidents of a major nature where the phone call has clarity and it is not ascertained by the call handlers / their management that something major is ongoing.

As with all safety-critical communications, speak from somewhere safe (not in the middle of a fuel spill or fire!), speak a touch slower than you would normally (if you are stressed, this may turn out to be a speed that's "just right"), shield yourself from the wind (no use if you can't be heard!), and follow any prompts, repeating information as needed until you can be sure it is understood clearly. The message is vital, and if it is being received by trained call handlers in a dedicated emergency facility, will go to the right place.

 

[infobleep]

In London it currently takes 4 minutes from a person ringing 999 to all the emergency services being called. The operator they speak to has to ring each service to request their help.

In Wales it takes just 16 seconds to inform everyone. They use a national address gazetteer and what is known as the unique property reference number to send out the information quickly. They can also link into other systems such as care systems. So they might then know at X address there will be something who needs a greater level of assistance. They don't have to know who just that someone lives there.

There is current work going on in London to role out the same thing. Not only does it cut costs, as staff don't have to ring round, it also enables emergency response teams to arrive as soon as possible.

 

[Yabbadabba]

I would imagine that the best thing to do is to do nothing. If there's a crash on the railway the professionals employed by the railway are trained how to deal with it, who to call and know exactly how to describe the location where they are. I was told this by a Guard on a train some years ago when I was a regular commuter when I asked very shortly after the crash at Purley which was on the line that I travelled on. He explained that the railway description of a location may be somewhat different from a regular traveller's description.

If you do nothing then we are down to train unusually long time in section and could be the long way round to finding out that something is wrong especially if there's no track detection for that portion of line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From discussing it with my local signallers (in person), it appears they would prefer as much of an obvious description of the location as possible. You don't even have to use especially technical terminology (eg. "the line through Purley Oaks Platform 2" will suffice as a good description to relay, firstly). Anything that can be clearly relayed is better than nothing, provided it is accurate. Remember that there will be a "lead" person in the conversation who should be able to request and sort out any clarification, if it is required. Use a fixed telephone if you can. Look for the green emergency phone symbol (many stations, platform ramps and other places have emergency phones - way more than you'd expect if you weren't familiar with them), a signal post telephone, a level crossing telephone, or just the "black on white" phone symbol on a cupboard (a standard telephone for railway use).

Bridge numbers, identification plates etc. are all very useful (and I mean that sincerely) if you have time to search for the details and get them to hand before taking action, but sometimes these things can, with the best of intentions, be less handy than a more colloquial description. Unless you have a bridge or other plate specifically advising that any incident should be treated as prescribed and by giving a specific reference, it would perhaps be best to just detail the location's defining features (and not "not where they are", as in, "I have just left Hassocks and have absolutely no idea where we are, but we're near a sort of stream"). You can mention the plate as an immediate secondary identifier. I am tailoring this to the public and not to railway staff - obviously any on here will know the protocols if they are competent!

Purley Oaks and Hassocks are you trying to give me work lol

 

[tsr]

Purley Oaks and Hassocks are you trying to give me work lol

Ha! No, not at all. Apologies to all at Three Bridges! These were locations picked at random from signal boxes/centres in my general local area.

 

[Yabbadabba]

Ha! No, not at all. Apologies to all at Three Bridges! These were locations picked at random from signal boxes/centres in my general local area.

Apology accepted lol I don't want too many disasters in the family as my dad attended both the Clapham and Purley incidents as a BTP officer

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I hesitate to suggest a strategy for an emergency response based on a few personal experiences, and I'll make this contrast to illustrate my hesitation:

If you have a crash near a Network Rail structure there is a handy little sign with a phone number to call and just as important the name of the location.

Yes, that's the theory.

My experience - not an emergency, but an unlocked gate - was that the person at the other end of the line had a very sketchy idea of the geography of the WCML even when given the bridge reference!

My experience with an open gate (near a park, on the way to several primary schools, at just the right time to be going to school) was also not great. After some dithering, I rang BTP, who said someone would be sent out.

It is my experience that when calling the number on a sign attached to a lineside structure, that a) the call is answered promptly, b) the call is transferred to someone with local knowledge efficiently, and c) the responding person has been able to confirm the precise location of my report with an uncanny level of detail and accuracy.

Perhaps we shouldn't suggest saftey-critical strategies based on a few personal experiences?

 

[Scruffer]

All of the main Emergency Services run 'Emergency Plans'. These are drawn up through detailed planning and discussion. These plans are computerised and, in the event of a train crash, are activated by pressing a few buttons. The plan sets out who needs to know what, and it also includes touch button connection to the relevant control room, or electronic log transfer.

If a caller contacted 999 and went through to the ambulance, then the ambulance controller would notify the police. The police would probably 'own' the plan. If there was a fire, then the fire controller would activate their own part of the plan, and would 'own' the fire and rescue scene. If it was a major event then all of the services would get together under one roof and oversee the response.